Family says Marine did not have to die in SWAT standoff

Family says Marine did not have to die in SWAT standoff

www.wtoc.com

Jimmy Dixon Jr. looked in his son's yard for some sort of answer. He still doesn't understand why, a Marine veteran who served 3 tours of combat in Iraq, died in a standoff with Appling County Sheriff's deputies and members of a statewide SWAT team Sunday morning.

"He was wearing his Marine flak jacket (bulletproof vest) and they shot him in the carotid artery," the explained the father, a Marine who served during Vietnam. "If they'd shot him in the jacket, they would have knocked him down, but wouldn't have killed him.

Appling County sheriff Benny DeLoach tells WTOC the situatio

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Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
Appling Co. (GA) man shot after refusal to surrender

I started this topic last night after I could find a source. There was very little source to base the thread on, as the details that I felt were the most important were not yet known by the media. I started a new thread because I couldn't update the other, so MODS, if you need to close the other, feel free.. I will link it here.



www.wtoc.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

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I am not trying to place any blame on the police here, and I really don't want this to turn into a police bashing thread. I knew both James and some of the Deputies that were involved, none of them would have wanted this to turn out the way it did. My main focus in all of this is his treatment for PTSD and the fact that he was delusional when this was all happening. At what point was there nothing left to do? At what point could something have changed this situation? What could have been done in the months leading up to this that could have very well changed the outcome?

El negro why dont you put in a description as to what actually happened my phone is to dang slow and doesnt like linkys

Originally posted by andyr1112
El negro why dont you put in a description as to what actually happened my phone is to dang slow and doesnt like linkys

A Marine Iraq War Veteran was shot and killed in a 5 hour standoff with County Deputies and Georgia State SWAT after exiting his home with a weapon and refusing to drop it. James was disabled in his last of 3 tours in Iraq, and was currently being treated by several different sources for PTSD.

I'm sure he didn't have to die - he could have put down his weapon and surrendered.

Sadly frontline police officers are not psychotherapists, and if they are using their firearms they are not trying to simply knock someone down any more.

Sad....but predictable.

Sigh...knowing full well this will blow up into a "cops are evil" vs "cops are saints" flame war....it's sad that once upon a time, we could at least rely on police officers to not all try to be Dirty Harry Callahan. Regardless of the facts in this case, cops are now indoctrinated with the "we're at war" mindset - which ALWAYS involves casualties. Yeah, theirs is a tough job, never knowing if some crackhead or Black Hat is gonna give them a one-way ticket to Dante's Inferno, but at least give them proper training on incapacitation. There's no achievement for most bodies and investigations tend to go a whole lot better if the suspect is alive for questioning (While we're at it, let's restore THAT word and eliminate "perpetrator" - sets up that old us v. them mentality too well)

Ok, rant over.

While I find this story very sad, I don't think you can fault the police here. The guy was shooting at the neighbors house, and then was armed and wearing a flak jacket and refused to lay down his weapons... The police even tried to wait until daylight and the Sheriff knew the guy personally. Cops are not allowed to shoot to wound, I wish people here would understand that. Think of it this way, they shoot him in the vest (BULLETPROOF VEST) and he opens fire putting all the neighbors and police in danger.

Originally posted by Domo1
While I find this story very sad, I don't think you can fault the police here. The guy was shooting at the neighbors house, and then was armed and wearing a flak jacket and refused to lay down his weapons... The police even tried to wait until daylight and the Sheriff knew the guy personally. Cops are not allowed to shoot to wound, I wish people here would understand that. Think of it this way, they shoot him in the vest (BULLETPROOF VEST) and he opens fire putting all the neighbors and police in danger.

I agree somewhat, and I updated my original comments to reflect. James' brother was called down, by police, to talk with his brother, however, when he arrived, he wasn't allowed to. Why? How was he allowed to leave his home during the standoff and enter his parents' home while carrying weapons? I don't agree with a shoot to kill policy.. as his gun wasn't raised, it was at his side.

reply to post by broahes


Sounds like a classic "Suicide by Cop". Armed and very dangerous Marine Veteran shooting randomly at his neighbors. He wanted what happened to happen.

It's easy to feel sympathy for his family and also to understand his family will never accept the outcome and always believe he could have been talked down. I'd be surprised if that were not the case.

He served three Tours. He was armed and firing at the neighbors. He refused to surrender. The only story here is what war does to some. The Officers just did their job and protected the public from him. It would be irrational to conclude otherwise I think.

I can agree with everything you said but this:

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by broahes

 

Sounds like a classic "Suicide by Cop". Armed and very dangerous Marine Veteran shooting randomly at his neighbors. He wanted what happened to happen.

From article:

Text"He came in with guns and we tried to talk him into giving them to us. He said 'I can't give up my weapons, daddy. The Iraqis are out there and they'll overtake us.", the father recalled. "I tried to get through to him but I couldn't."

He wasn't trying "suicide by cop" .. in his eyes, he was at war, be it in his own head or not.

reply to post by broahes



Unfortunately war messes with our men/women's mind and when they come back half the time, they're lucky if they can get help. That is, if they even want to acknowledge that they're not the same anymore and need help. Hell, help is hard to find even for those of us who've never seen battle. I can only imagine the battle they go through when they come home. Regardless, please accept my condolences on the loss of your friend. I think everyone was put in a bad situation and sadly the police dealt with it in the best way they were trained to. I think the fault here may lie with whomever your friend was seeing, professional help-wise, in the months leading up to this tragedy.

reply to post by broahes


I'm sorry but I can't blame anyone here. If he was delusional that made him more dangerous. Sad story and situation no doubt, but his refusal to lay down his weapon made him extremely dangerous. I'd say they had no choice.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by broahes

 

I'm sorry but I can't blame anyone here. If he was delusional that made him more dangerous. Sad story and situation no doubt, but his refusal to lay down his weapon made him extremely dangerous. I'd say they had no choice.

No need to apologize, I completely understand where you are coming from. My reply was merely on your idea that this was somehow a suicide by cop situation, which I don't believe it was.

I don't blame anyone here, aside from the government that has thrown our veterans to the curb once they are done being used as war machines. That isn't anything new either.. and sadly, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

As I stated before, I knew James (prior to his military enlistment) and some of the deputies and the sheriff that were involved. None of them would have chosen this end above any other, and I feel sympathy for them as I do the Marine's family in this case.

he was a marine for the God's sake.Have some respect .Blaine.

Ugh OP I missed the part where you said you knew him. So he was actively getting help? This story really bummed me out. Sorry I thought this was going to be a cop bash thread. I really wish more could have been done, I just have no idea what. Poor guy and poor family.

Originally posted by Domo1
Ugh OP I missed the part where you said you knew him. So he was actively getting help? This story really bummed me out. Sorry I thought this was going to be a cop bash thread. I really wish more could have been done, I just have no idea what. Poor guy and poor family.

I knew him from his time prior to entering the military, and we still shared some of the same mutual friends, though I haven't seen him in some time. Yes, he was, as I've been told and have no reason not to believe,currently being treated. My intention of posting this certainly wasn't to point out yet another issue to bash cops over.

Unfortunately nothing else could have been done. He refused to give up his weapons. He thought the cops were Iraqi insurgents. He also told the sheriff that he would be going to heaven. He had hit the end of his rope and unfortunately psychiatric treatment didn't help. I feel horrible for the family. However, the cops did the best they could to maintain the safety of the neighbors and the officers.

A flak jacket is not a bullet proof vest. It is designed to stop small low velocity projectiles. It will not stop a bullet. If the death was caused by a hit to the carotid artery, the officer may have been aiming center mass. That is the quickest way to stop the threat. It also has a very high survival rate. Unfortunately this time the odds didn't line up favorably.

I hope that some how everyone on both sides can find peace and understanding. I hope it also serves as a wake up call to the chicken hawks volunteering our young men and women for war.

My condolences on your loss.

Most military personnel returning from combat are supposed to go through medical / psyche screen upon return. One of my best friends just recently had his done, almost 5 years after the fact. The only reason it was caught was because of an injury he had the VA check out. He did 2 tours in Iraq with about a 1-2 year gap in between the tours. During that time we roomed together and I remember one night we had a particularly bad thunder / lightning storm.

It was loud enough to wake me up, at which point I keep hearing strange sounds coming from the hallway outside my room. When I checked I found my buddy out of his bedroom, in the hallway, talking "cover". The heavy lightning "flashes" coupled with the thunder apparently was perceived as explosions and attack.

Even though he was "awake" he was not aware of his location. I can see both sides of the story for this tragic incident. My question would be was this the first time this occurred with the victim? By first time I dont mean law enforcement involvement or discharging of his weapons, but first time he perceived a "threat" while back home.

Hindsight always being 20/20, I looked back on the incidents leading up to the hallway incident with my roommate and found red flags that I ignored because at the time they didn't seem dangerous, to either my roommate or anyone else. When taken together, it was apparent their was a problem, but as the saying goes when you are so close to the situation, its difficult to see the trees while standing in the middle of the forest.

We need to get our priorities straight when it comes to our armed forces and medical / psychological issues that present when returning from a war zone. To make matters worse there are those who know they have problems that refuse to acknowledge it because it can be a sign of weakness. They are also worried (just as police officers can be) that if anyone finds out about depression / dark thoughts it would end their career, and to some, thats simply not an option (it also involves never being able to be around weapons legally again, another sticking point).

The best thing we can do to avoid these types of tragedies is to "be there" for the person, whether they realize it or not. In cases like this its going to be rare for the person with the problem to diagnose himself and seek out help.

We need to be mindful of that and must be supportive... It will be hard in the short term as it has a tendency to piss the person who needs help off, but in the long run it can prevent incidents like this one.

To put the possibility of what could have happened in perspective (and im not saying the guy would have done this, but you get the idea) is to look at the North Hollywood Shootout.

2 men covered from head to toe with body armor and assault weapons managed to cause a city wide tac alert in Los Angeles. Those 2 individuals were able to keep more then 100+ officers at bay while at the same time take the shootout into a residential area. Containment and negotiation for a peaceful resolution is still priority, however when the suspect attempts to leave the area it forces the encounter since it now places the public at large in potential danger.

Personally speaking I would like to see another form of less than lethal tools available. As bad as it sounds, but when dangerous animals are loose they make an attempt to use tranquillizer darts. I wouldn't mind seeing a human version of this that would be quick acting but short lived. Long enough to incapacitate and get people in to secure the individual.

Anyways.. Not judging, just my thoughts and experience on this topic. People must get involved with this topic, regardless if they are in the military or not. Contact your representatives at the local state and federal level and voice your concern over the lack of resources available to our returning military personnel. They responded when our country asked for volunteers, and at the very least we should take care of them for answering the call when they get home.

Again my condolences.

Im going to blame the cops anyways because I am an a$$hole. God bless that young marine's soul, he did not deserve what he got. I was not there and do not know anyone personally, but I still blame the police.

The thing that concerns me is not that the police did not follow procedure, for I cannot attest to such a thing. Nor is it that the PTSD that the Marine was suffering was that serious that it utterly replaced reality with snatches of his time spent in lands further afield. The thing that concerns me is this:

The US government KNOW that when they send a person abroad, to do (no matter how justified you may or may not believe the war) the dirty jobs that keep people safe, it will likely affect them negatively. They KNOW when they send these people abroad, that thier injuries, or psychological trauma, may make them either physically or psychologically and sociologically impared or incapable.
They also know that when the issue is a matter of mind, of broken psyche, of an Id run rampant, that the behaviour of the very people they train to do thier bidding, will become in some cases utterly unpredictable. He may turn on his family, on his friends. He may turn on any figure which resembles a combatant enemy, or any number of other possibly violent, and unfortunate scenarios may play out.

Why then, when they know all this, and they have psychologists, legions of them working on these problems, why in the hell have no S.O.P's for safe and non lethal take downs of persons who represent such hard and dangerous targets, been implemented? Better yet, why in heavens name, does the USMC have no specialised
recovery and prevention teams, whose only purpose is to prevent and defuse these situations? The SWAT guys may be armed and armoured similarly to the way that Marines and other warfighters are, but thier training and expirience do not make them fit for the job of trying to prevent a rogue Marine from doing himself, or others, harm, should he for some reason take it upon himself to do so, for whatever reason.

I would propose this: The USMC should organise a task force, purely to organise and conduct less than lethal takedowns, on those within the organisation, or who have had to leave, who have for reasons of mental defect, gone on rampages, or barricaded themselves with ammo and guns. It is not acceptable that a person can sacrifice thier very sanity for their country, and when the results of that sacrifice come full circle get shot dead because they put a few people at risk. Not trying to be harsh here, but its a pretty gutless and pathetic person, who would rather see the men who protect his freedoms shot dead, than suffer a little threat while someone actually prevents the poor S.O.B comming to harm.

Oh, and another thing while I am here. Was tear gas launched? Were tranquiliser rounds deployed? Air tazers? The tazer rounds you can launch from a shotgun? Was any of that highly effective kit deployed against this gentleman, this vetran? I hear nothing of the sort in the reports I have read.

I have no beef with the SWAT guys, they did what they had to do to protect the safety of the citizens in the vicinity , and I appreciate that of course. However, they COULD have launched tear gas. They could have used a knock out dart, or a tazer round. They could have used concussion grenades, but because they were SWAT, they arent trained in how to secure a target as tough as a Marine. The BEST they could do was shoot him dead, to prevent him ruining his own record by murdering an innocent resident while in an altered state of conciousness, and to provide protection to the citizen by standers and neighbors.

However, I do not think that the responsibility for dealing with such highly trained warriors when they are off the rails, should fall to non military personel. Only another Marine or Special Forces operative, could possibly have the training and skills to defuse a situation that dangerous, and only they should be asked to. I am sure those Marines with thier faculties intact, would rather risk thier lives to save thier psychologically altered brothers, than see them ventilated in the name of public safety.