Open challenge to christians....

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi
I keep refreshing the cnn website, but still no news on any moving mountains ...

Hm ...

Perhaps Mount Taupo or Mount Krakatoa, or even, in a small way Mt St Helens were examples of "moved mountains".

You did realize that mountains have been moved in the past, didn't you?

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi
I keep refreshing the cnn website, but still no news on any moving mountains ...

Hm ...

Perhaps Mount Taupo or Mount Krakatoa, or even, in a small way Mt St Helens were examples of "moved mountains".

You did realize that mountains have been moved in the past, didn't you?

Unfortunately, I don't have the CNN Vintage Edition­­­™.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus said....


For verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
-Matthew 17:20

Now I am sure many of the christians here have faith larger than a mustard seed.

So why not show a demonstration of it and ask a mountain, or a hill... or at least a mustard seed to "remove hence to a yonder place" and show us non-christians that you guys are for real. This shouldn't be difficult for you all, considering that the bible that you follow declares that nothing shall be impossible for you all.

In case your faith is NOT "as a grain of mustard seed".... and if you would rather say that its all "figurative", I would really appreciate it, if you could tell me what basis one is supposed to declare a verse to be figurative or literal.... or do you just declare the difficult ones "figurative"???

At least this way we would all get to know who among the christians lack faith even as much "as a grain of mustard seed". Well, obviously, they will be destroyed by Jesus once he gets here and burn in hell for all eternity along with the muslims, hindus, buddhists etc.


Thanks!

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: grammar

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: added verse in green

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I am not seeing were it is described as a "stone" mountain as you are portraying it to be and it doesn't mention a hill as a relative comparison, as did you. So you are assuming, from what you used as your example verse that it is a rock.
I recently had a literal "mountain" in my life removed by what I would consider faith. My mom and her church, along with other churches in our area, have been praying for my dad. He even kept a prayer cloth in his wallet from a hospital visit with my mom's pastor, who came to see him after he had tumors and 1/3 of his stomach removed. He was diagnosed with stage 2 stomach cancer after his surgery and has been undergoing chemo and radiation for a few months. We just found out, after Christmas, that dad has no cancer in his body. The doctor kept saying, "I don't understand how it can just be gone." Dad is up to 140lbs after his 127 low.
To prove my story is not B.S. you can type in on the search engine "My Dad Has Cancer" under the moniker "turkenstein"

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi
I keep refreshing the cnn website, but still no news on any moving mountains ...

Hm ...

Perhaps Mount Taupo or Mount Krakatoa, or even, in a small way Mt St Helens were examples of "moved mountains".

You did realize that mountains have been moved in the past, didn't you?

Unfortunately, I don't have the CNN Vintage Edition­­­™.

Cheers to "old things"

By the way, I am a Christian, but I appreciate your input in these threads.

Some of the nicest and most cultured people I know are Muslim (and some of the most closed minded and hateful people I know profess to be Christian).

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus said....


For verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
-Matthew 17:20

Now I am sure many of the christians here have faith larger than a mustard seed.

So why not show a demonstration of it and ask a mountain, or a hill... or at least a mustard seed to "remove hence to a yonder place" and show us non-christians that you guys are for real. This shouldn't be difficult for you all, considering that the bible that you follow declares that nothing shall be impossible for you all.

In case your faith is NOT "as a grain of mustard seed".... and if you would rather say that its all "figurative", I would really appreciate it, if you could tell me what basis one is supposed to declare a verse to be figurative or literal.... or do you just declare the difficult ones "figurative"???

At least this way we would all get to know who among the christians lack faith even as much "as a grain of mustard seed". Well, obviously, they will be destroyed by Jesus once he gets here and burn in hell for all eternity along with the muslims, hindus, buddhists etc.


Thanks!

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: grammar

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: added verse in green

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Well I lack faith, even the size of a mustard seed. Though I do have enough faith through the Spirit to accept Jesus is my saviour and through him I wont face condemnation for my sin.
Now when is a part of the bible to be taken figuratively? Dare I suggest common sense?

Jesus spoke of spiritual matters as well as physical. In that cherry picked verse you have ignored the context to push your view. Jesus was dealing directly with a spiritual matter in demon possesion. How can you MISS that simple fact
Its not to hard if you apply a simple dose of common sense, you will see your error.
Hermeneutics basic hermeneutics

Originally posted by sHuRuLuNi

Originally posted by sacgamer25


You are making asking for the same sign that Satan asked to see, so I’ll let you figure out where that thought comes from.


13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

I thought God cannot be tempted.
So, if Jesus is God, how could Satan tempt him (and for 40 days at that)?



Seriously, do you Christians even read your own scripture? If you do, do you not see the contradictions in it?

You are right God cannot be tempted to sin. He chooses love over sin every time. And this is exactly what the bible says that allthough the son was tempted in every way we are yet he cannot be tempted.

That is what made him the perfect sacrifice. The contradiction lies only in your understanding. You realize I could spend the next week pointing out the contradictions in the Koran, and I'm sure you would do the same as I do. If that is what you want I will start posting them for you, but if we do that niether one of us has gained anything but an enemy.

reply to post by Communicationwillfreeus


Great to hear of an answer to your prayers.

Truly a personal "mountain" has been moved.

Originally posted by Communicationwillfreeus

I am not seeing were it is described as a "stone" mountain as you are portraying it to be and it doesn't mention a hill as a relative comparison, as did you. So you are assuming, from what you used as your example verse that it is a rock.
I recently had a literal "mountain" in my life removed by what I would consider faith. My mom and her church, along with other churches in our area, have been praying for my dad. He even kept a prayer cloth in his wallet from a hospital visit with my mom's pastor, who came to see him after he had tumors and 1/3 of his stomach removed. He was diagnosed with stage 2 stomach cancer after his surgery and has been undergoing chemo and radiation for a few months. We just found out, after Christmas, that dad has no cancer in his body. The doctor kept saying, "I don't understand how it can just be gone." Dad is up to 140lbs after his 127 low.
To prove my story is not B.S. you can type in on the search engine "My Dad Has Cancer" under the moniker "turkenstein"

I am glad your father is better now. May God grant him good health and long life.

As to how the cancer is gone - well you said he had surgery and chemo.
Of course it can be an intervention of God - far be it from me to deny that, but the OP is still about literally moving mountains - it is hard, if viewed in the context, to understand those verses as a metaphor. They pretty strait forward.

Originally posted by sacgamer25


You are right God cannot be tempted to sin.

No.
Not he cannot be tempted "to sin". But he cannot be tempted. PERIOD.

Jesus WAS TEMPTED.



As for the "contradictions" in the Qur'an - please feel free to create a thread about it. You will have a hard time. Especially to find anything similar to the above story of Jesus and the devil.

reply to post by chr0naut

Perhaps Jesus was saying that their faith was not even the size of a mustard seed?

And I am quoting matthew 17:20, specifically addressing bible-following christians to by asking a mountain or at least a hittle hill to move.

But it appears christians have taken the old "its all figurative" route.

reply to post by borntowatch

Now when is a part of the bible to be taken figuratively? Dare I suggest common sense?

What about applying "common sense" to the following....
- Jesus walking on water
- Jesus raising the dead
- Jesus himself rising from the dead
- Jesus returning in the sky followed by an army

Does your common sense tell you those are figurative as well?? Or do you take it literally just because its there in your bible.

reply to post by Communicationwillfreeus

I am not seeing were it is described as a "stone" mountain as you are portraying it to be and it doesn't mention a hill as a relative comparison, as did you. So you are assuming, from what you used as your example verse that it is a rock.
I recently had a literal "mountain" in my life removed by what I would consider faith. My mom and her church, along with other churches in our area, have been praying for my dad. He even kept a prayer cloth in his wallet from a hospital visit with my mom's pastor, who came to see him after he had tumors and 1/3 of his stomach removed. He was diagnosed with stage 2 stomach cancer after his surgery and has been undergoing chemo and radiation for a few months. We just found out, after Christmas, that dad has no cancer in his body. The doctor kept saying, "I don't understand how it can just be gone." Dad is up to 140lbs after his 127 low.
To prove my story is not B.S. you can type in on the search engine "My Dad Has Cancer" under the moniker "turkenstein"

Perhaps God willed your dad to be healed...as a result of your faith?

Fine, but the idea behind this thread was to get christians demonstrate their ability to do the impossible through their faith.

Any miracle is to be confined as a truth once it is real.
Move a mountain and science tells us that it's possible to move a mountain by doing x,y,z and looking further science facts sprout up all over the place.

This is how the universe is being created.

infinity...

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

I suppose I need a little more coffee or something, I'm a little too tired at the moment to give your question the work it deserves. But a couple of quick thoughts?

I think that a miracle is God intervening in the Universe so as to create a result that wouldn't otherwise occur. For example, if we're playing pool and you hit a shot just perfectly, all sorts of natural laws will tell us that your ball will go in the pocket and the cue ball will stay out. That's what has to happen, physics demands it. But if I get cute and hit your ball as it goes by, who knows what the result will be? That interference is, in my mind, a little like what God does.

But the point is God does it, not me. I'm not a magician to say magic words and have a rabbit come out of my hat. Miracles are His job and He does them ot not as He sees fit. So, I think it's extraordinarily unlikely that an ATSer will have any success saying I will do such and such a miracle at so and so time. He can ask for it. But whether it happens or not is God's call.

Oh, there are miracles happening all the time through faith. Inexplicaple cures after prayers for a cure, one in a million coincidences, all sorts of stuff. But if you're serious about finding out what the Bible teaches on this, head on down to the library and sit down with a topical Bible and open the index to "prayer" then start reading. There may be something on line that will do that for you.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by squandered

Move a mountain and science tells us that it's possible to move a mountain by doing x,y,z and looking further science facts sprout up all over the place.

yeah ok. But this threads about the bible telling christians that they can move mounains with faith only as big as a mustard seed.

Its like this... if the bible talks of a prophecy where millions of non-christians will be killed by a returning Jesus , it is to be taken as literal, because its something they would like to see. Any attempts to see them as merely figurative, is discarded as "blasphemy".

If its something like "have faith, move mountains" or "sin with eye, pluck eyeballs out", it all becomes metaphorical , because you see, it doesn't sit too well with them.


So they have been picking and choosing verses that suit them, as literal / metaphorical all along.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

Oh, I see. You want a method by which you can tell metaphorical verses from literal. Sorry, a 100% foolproof one doesn't exist.

I was picturing a cowboy struttin' down the streets of this here itty bitty town. And that cowboy he was a'singin his heart out. He was singin' "I got me the purtiest li'l gal in town."

Well? Metaphorical or literal? Really, there's no way to tell, is there?

Some verses are clearly either metaphorical or literal, some are probably one way or the other, some may be closer to toss ups. You get the best feeling for which is which by looking at all the verses that deal with the same subject, sometimes you can find out what the very earliest Christians thought about it.

In any event, don't let a small problem become a big stumbling block.

With respect,
Charles 1952

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'll agree, it happens often enough to be a stereotype. However, context us usually a helpful thing.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by squandered

 

Move a mountain and science tells us that it's possible to move a mountain by doing x,y,z and looking further science facts sprout up all over the place.

yeah ok. But this threads about the bible telling christians that they can move mounains with faith only as big as a mustard seed.

Its like this... if the bible talks of a prophecy where millions of non-christians will be killed by a returning Jesus , it is to be taken as literal, because its something they would like to see. Any attempts to see them as merely figurative, is discarded as "blasphemy".

If its something like "have faith, move mountains" or "sin with eye, pluck eyeballs out", it all becomes metaphorical , because you see, it doesn't sit too well with them.


So they have been picking and choosing verses that suit them, as literal / metaphorical all along.

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Okay, I'll give your question the respect that it deserves.

To understand the bible, one must understand Jesus. To actually know what things really mean, suggests you don't need the bible anyway...

What's more, the bible is a tool. When the Romans invented (reinvented etc) Jesus a wave of oppression covered the globe and destroyed the awesome religions that were around. In short, religion all over the globe became male 1800 years ago.

You can get to the truth in the bible, but you will be attacked by my more BS there than in almost anything else.

As for the faith as small as a mustard seed, well, I always felt that this means anything is possible. It's literal. If by chance you move a mountain, it won't be a miracle anymore. Everything is already a miracle anyway.

Therefore, you and me can move a mountain if we think it is possible. The caveat is that everything is different if you are capable of moving a mountain. This perspective suggests you are a God. That means you will not see moving a mountain as a big deal. I of course don't know what that would feel like, but I strongly suspect earthly riches are not worth anything to you..

Therefore the assertion is somewhat redundant. I'm sure that Jesus already knew this.

Maybe the lesson should read, "be careful what you wish for as you might just get it".

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Nobody has that kinda faith, not since Jesus. Our minds our to occupied and stuck on survive to have that kind of faith.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by squandered

 

Move a mountain and science tells us that it's possible to move a mountain by doing x,y,z and looking further science facts sprout up all over the place.

yeah ok. But this threads about the bible telling christians that they can move mounains with faith only as big as a mustard seed.

Its like this... if the bible talks of a prophecy where millions of non-christians will be killed by a returning Jesus , it is to be taken as literal, because its something they would like to see. Any attempts to see them as merely figurative, is discarded as "blasphemy".

If its something like "have faith, move mountains" or "sin with eye, pluck eyeballs out", it all becomes metaphorical , because you see, it doesn't sit too well with them.


So they have been picking and choosing verses that suit them, as literal / metaphorical all along.

edit on 10-1-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I have to say your wrong sk0rpi0n.... I have no desire to see any man cast down in the lake of fire... I have no desire to see any man worse off because of what the bible says. Here is the but though..... If I have to live a certain way to make it to heaven, and you are given the opportunity to do the same, and you choose not to, does it make it my fault. I do my part, and warn people, because every man is given the chance to know Christ. It is what the person does with that opportunity that decides his fate. I have no say in the matter, if you don't like it, ask God yourself why he chose to do this.

If it were up to me, it would all be easy, but that kinda defeats the purpose... God gave you free will, to love him, hate him, curse him, or praise him. Its your choice, and in the end, you will answer for what you have done.... Just remember, its like looking a cop in the eye when trying to get out of a speeding ticket.... He knows what you did exactly.... your going to have to answer for your decision in life.

To sum it up, yes, it is a matter of faith. Moving "mountains" has always been regarded as a message of faith, not to say that it couldn't happen, faith isn't about seeing something physical, because if that were the case, everyone would be a believer instantly, and everyone would be out moving the mountains back and forth..... Common sense goes a long way here.