The concept of hell and eternal damnation is a form of control.

reply to post by HillbillyHippie1


Anyone can tell this concept is crap. If this is a concept for control, why the hell isn't it working? Things seem pretty out of control to me.

Originally posted by Max_TO
reply to post by miniatus

 

Your Baptists friend seems to prove my point.

I feel that the flip side to all this is the misconception regarding god's love.

I'm merely agreeing with you by example that it's not always the case.. that doesn't mean it's not the reason the hell myth is reinforced by the church.. it not succeeding all the time in controlling people to do "the right thing" is a moot point.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by HillbillyHippie1

 

Anyone can tell this concept is crap. If this is a concept for control, why the hell isn't it working? Things seem pretty out of control to me.

edit on 2-1-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

Laws and the threat/punishment of prison and the existence of death sentences are ALSO a form of control .. they are there to persuade you not to commit these crimes.. they aren't always successful either are they? it doesn't mean that's not why they are there.

reply to post by miniatus


All have sinned and are worthy of the wages of sin. Death. But God in his mercy has provided a way. Reject the way the truth and the life. You die. Nothing complicated here so don't expect any excuses to prevail. The fool says there is no God pal. Then comes death then judgement, then the second death. Hell. Very simple. It can all be avoided by belief in the one most powerful name in the universe. The name that has saved even heroin addicts. Vietnam vets you name it. Christ saves and makes people out of absolute freaks. Not the other way around. Jesus Christ is my savior my hero. I'll put my trust in him not some feel good fad going round.

reply to post by MrUncreated


Yes. Because not everyone wants that. Hell, believe it or not, there are a very rare few that would actually want to be tortured by demons in hell.


Focusing on the good and ignoring the bad is a one way ticket to ignorance. You can't have perfection without imperfection in its shadow. Otherwise it is just there, existing.

Once in what I can only suppose was a dream I experienced my own sort of view of hell. Total nothingness. No input. It was rather mind boggeling and troubling. But a light appeared and gave me back myself. It uttered "I am what I am, you are who you are, we all are who we all are.



Point of all this is this. If hell doesn't exist, why love? And that doesn't mean you should be forced to love out of fear. That is to say, if it isn't better than something else, why put the effort forward TO love?

reply to post by Gorman91

Point of all this is this. If hell doesn't exist, why love? And that doesn't mean you should be forced to love out of fear. That is to say, if it isn't better than something else, why put the effort forward TO love?

Just because hell doesn't exist does not mean there isn't punishment for the wicked...

Love is the law...

Those who do not love will have that reflected within their lives...

and possibly, after death.

reply to post by MrUncreated


I think you misunderstand hell. My impression of hell is an eternal void.

reply to post by Akragon


Punishment is hell.

Punishment doesn't happen in heaven. If you needed to be punished in heaven, heaven would not be perfect.

And there isn't anything in between. That wouldn't make much sense. Because if it did, then this life pretty much is totally worthless.


I repeat. If all I'm going to get for not loving is a few hundred years of whipping, why love?


It is difficult to forgive and not only that, but love, an enemy. I don't know. Maybe you haven't had many enemies in your life. I have. And it's hard. And if I'm not going to go to hell for not loving them, why do so?

reply to post by Gorman91


Hell doesn't exist... And heaven is "the afterlife"... which all souls return to.

Punishment doesn't happen in heaven. If you needed to be punished in heaven, heaven would not be perfect.

Because life, and afterlife IS perfect... there must be punishment within said "afterlife"

You reap what you sow...

And there isn't anything in between. That wouldn't make much sense. Because if it did, then this life pretty much is totally worthless.

In between what? You believe "hell" is between heaven and the physical?

Life would be worthless if there was no afterlife... pointless actually. Though that is not the case.

I repeat. If all I'm going to get for not loving is a few hundred years of whipping, why love?

Well that depends...

If you are christian then you must love because your "lord" demands it... though it is your choice of course.

It is difficult to forgive and not only that, but love, an enemy. I don't know. Maybe you haven't had many enemies in your life. I have. And it's hard. And if I'm not going to go to hell for not loving them, why do so?

I've had enemies... Though i've changed my ways quite a while ago.

You forgive your enemies and love them because hatred weighs heavy on your soul... It does not hurt them, but it does hurt you.

And again, your lord commands you love them... because like it or not they are your brothers and sisters, who are also a part of God.

Love thy neighbour because in doing so you also love God.

And btw, you're not going to hell... Its nothing but a fear tactic used for conversion.

reply to post by Akragon

Hell doesn't exist... And heaven is "the afterlife"... which all souls return to.

That's opinion, and one that doesn't make much sense.

Because life, and afterlife IS perfect... there must be punishment within said "afterlife" You reap what you sow...

Perfection implies a conclusion when you enter the transition between out and in. Allow me to explain in architectural terms, as I am training to be one. When we say a building is "perfect' it means that it needs no alterations. That it is right as it is. If there is a need to change something once you enter it, it is inherently not perfect.

Similarly, if there is a need to punish as you enter heaven, there is an inherent imperfection to heaven.

And to conclude, if life was perfect, why leave? Why have a heaven? Why die?

In between what? You believe "hell" is between heaven and the physical? Life would be worthless if there was no afterlife... pointless actually. Though that is not the case.

I disagree. If there was no heaven, and indeed if the atheists are right, there is still purpose. I was an atheist once. I had no problem with the view that death meant the end. I still had purpose. The fact that I now call myself Christian hasn't changed that view much. A man is the totality of his thoughts and memories, and passing those on a generation further becomes the purpose. Knowing not what the end of the species is means one should keep existing to find out. Who knows what wonders and changes the universe shall have? Perhaps a generation will come that shall unlock time's mysteries, and reinvent reality.

I believe hell is something else entirely. As is heaven. I do not expect heaven to be like reality. I don't expect virgins and gardens. I doubt sex will even exist in heaven.

Well that depends... If you are christian then you must love because your "lord" demands it... though it is your choice of course.

Because it is right. Because seeing an enemy who is wrong become a friend that is right is a priceless event in a life that creates an unbreakable bond. Friends born in fire are the strongest friends.

You forgive your enemies and love them because hatred weighs heavy on your soul... It does not hurt them, but it does hurt you.

Untrue. I could destroy a person's entire life. To some extent I have to the few that have screwed with me. No I am not happy I did those things as a Christian But the act of destroying them brings a hard-to-hide grin to the face. There have been times where hatred fueled progress. Where hatred became the driving force to outdo and outperform the hated. Hatred is very much so a force for good when used correctly.

And again, your lord commands you love them... because like it or not they are your brothers and sisters, who are also a part of God.

Unless I make the choice that they ought to burn in hell for their sins and be taken from God's essence entirely. I CAN make that choice. I choose not to. Or perhaps, I have yet to find someone evil enough to condemn them to such.

Love thy neighbour because in doing so you also love God.

And it is undeniable that some small piece of me disagrees with that sometimes.

Like I said. Sometimes, hate can be used for good. There have been times where hatred drove me to destroy a person as they are, and force them to reinvent them. I destroyed their soul through hatred and showing them their flaws, their evils, and their sins.. And from that, was born a new one. Same face. But one cannot say the same person; Perhaps not even the same soul.

And btw, you're not going to hell... Its nothing but a fear tactic used for conversion.

You say this. And yet what legitimacy do you have.

I think hell could exist in the brain as a section of negative archetypes or small section of neural network that is densely interconnected. The hell part would be all the negative archetypes that have lots of connections leading to each other, but with few connections leading out. So once you find yourself in it, it just loops over and over and you can't get out.

These would be rather basic clusters that aren't very complex, which would make lots of similarities between the individual hell realms of different people. These so called hell realms can be seen in various dreams, and in the work of Emmanuel Swedenbord and Rosemary Ellen Guiley.

It's possible the original religious concept was to avoid these self programmed cesspools in the mind but this goal was forgotten over time and only the principles remain.

reply to post by Gorman91


You are interesting... because i know where you're comming from... Again i was once the same way.

Perhaps i can clairify...

Perfection implies a conclusion when you enter the transition between out and in. Allow me to explain in architectural terms, as I am training to be one. When we say a building is "perfect' it means that it needs no alterations. That it is right as it is. If there is a need to change something once you enter it, it is inherently not perfect.

We all enter into life perfect... Through our experiences we become imperfect.

This is why Jesus taught us to be like children... They are innocent, and do not hate... Children litterally "can not" understand the concept of hate until later in life...

1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

...........

Similarly, if there is a need to punish as you enter heaven, there is an inherent imperfection to heaven.

Incorrect...

God is the only judge... And your punishment/reward will be perfect according to what you sowed in life...

And to conclude, if life was perfect, why leave? Why have a heaven? Why die?

That question is not for me my friend... But i know life is perfect.

We are here for a set time, and death is the only thing that is 100% for everyone across the board.

I disagree. If there was no heaven, and indeed if the atheists are right, there is still purpose. I was an atheist once. I had no problem with the view that death meant the end. I still had purpose. The fact that I now call myself Christian hasn't changed that view much.

There is an afterlife... some call it heaven. If you chose to do so i have no issue with it.

A man is the totality of his thoughts and memories, and passing those on a generation further becomes the purpose. Knowing not what the end of the species is means one should keep existing to find out. Who knows what wonders and changes the universe shall have? Perhaps a generation will come that shall unlock time's mysteries, and reinvent reality.

I agree...

I believe hell is something else entirely. As is heaven. I do not expect heaven to be like reality. I don't expect virgins and gardens. I doubt sex will even exist in heaven.

Again, Hell does not exist... Yes that is my opinion... When Jesus spoke of hell he was reiterating a part of his lessons... that is "the first will be last, and the last will be first"

Live a selfish life, and you will have your reward already.

The selfless builds upon their treasure in "heaven"... and it is more valuble then all things in the physical.

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

........

Because it is right. Because seeing an enemy who is wrong become a friend that is right is a priceless event in a life that creates an unbreakable bond. Friends born in fire are the strongest friends.

I could destroy a person's entire life. To some extent I have to the few that have screwed with me. No I am not happy I did those things as a Christian But the act of destroying them brings a hard-to-hide grin to the face. There have been times where hatred fueled progress. Where hatred became the driving force to outdo and outperform the hated. Hatred is very much so a force for good when used correctly.

I disagree... but you are free to believe that hatred can be used for Good.

I will have no part in such beliefs... Love will always rule hatred.

Unless I make the choice that they ought to burn in hell for their sins and be taken from God's essence entirely. I CAN make that choice. I choose not to. Or perhaps, I have yet to find someone evil enough to condemn them to such.

As you should know you are always free to judge who you want... though it is not your place.

And it is undeniable that some small piece of me disagrees with that sometimes.

Like I said. Sometimes, hate can be used for good. There have been times where hatred drove me to destroy a person as they are, and force them to reinvent them. I destroyed their soul through hatred and showing them their flaws, their evils, and their sins.. And from that, was born a new one. Same face. But one cannot say the same person; Perhaps not even the same soul.

You did not destroy their soul... that is not something that any man has the power to do...

Perhaps you showed this person the light... or made them a better person. Though using hatred as a means for Good is not something i would recommend... Love destroys hate... Hate can not destroy hate.

You say this. And yet what legitimacy do you have.

Lets just say.... I just know.

Hell is nothing but a fear tactic... it wasn't in original scripture.

Now im not saying there isn't a place for the wicked... But there is no place of eternal fire and damnation that some christians throw at you.

reply to post by Akragon

We all enter into life perfect... Through our experiences we become imperfect.

But How? We enter into life as nothing. We need parents. We cannot even poop without problems. We cannot be perfect. For we change.

Spiritually perfect? Again, I am not sure. Our souls are clean perhaps. But I believe in original sin, because it makes sense. If there wasn't original sin, man would not create religion to rid himself of it.

This is why Jesus taught us to be like children... They are innocent, and do not hate... Children litterally "can not" understand the concept of hate until later in life...

But.

Proverb 20:11 — Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

I think it is indeed directed at the innocence of children. But we start as children to be brought up spiritually to adults. If you remain a child always, then what is gained? Always retain innocence, but life is inherently against innocence. And sins done many times loose the right to call it youthful innocence.

I do remember hatred as a child. One of my earliest memories is when I was either 4 or 5. I remember feeling some level of hatred at things relevant in my life.

However. Because I knew it, I was all the more responsible to control it earlier on. I give admission to failure in that. So I try ever harder, having lost the right to say it is innocence.

Incorrect... God is the only judge... And your punishment/reward will be perfect according to what you sowed in life...

But it never says that will end, in either case. Furthermore, he does judge you, but it is heavily implied that the judgement of believers is at a different scale to the nonbelievers. On the day of judgement, when Christ divides the sheep and the goats, where are the nonbelievers?

I do not know nor claim to know weather this be true or not. Or if there is some words onto nonbelievers. I just say what is there.

There is clearly mentioned a hell.

That question is not for me my friend... But i know life is perfect. We are here for a set time, and death is the only thing that is 100% for everyone across the board.

are you certain? What of Enoch? What of Elijah? Supposedly they return on the last day, only to be the first to resurrection. But not everyone in the bible has died whom was born a man.

There is an afterlife... some call it heaven. If you chose to do so i have no issue with it.

It also says heaven is to be destroyed. Because even now, heaven is not perfect. How could it be? Satan rebelled in it.

Ever wonder why Seraph in the court of God cover their faces? Seems to me like they dare not even look at the place where Satan sinned.

Live a selfish life, and you will have your reward already. The selfless builds upon their treasure in "heaven"... and it is more valuble then all things in the physical.

Yes. But what, they just go ahead and enjoy a bland heaven? It makes it quite clear, such as with the master of Lazarus, that they go into the deep pit.

I disagree... but you are free to believe that hatred can be used for Good. I will have no part in such beliefs... Love will always rule hatred.

Love does overrule hate. But there exists conditions where hatred produces love. Rare, but they exist.

As you should know you are always free to judge who you want... though it is not your place.

Undoubtedly it is not my place. But should God cause me to see the heart's desire of a man and in his actions reveal evil, what am I suppose to do? Why lead me to see it unless I am to give reproof. In fact, why call me to give reproof? Reproof implies judging something to be false or wrong. Of course this is not my own judgement. This is judgement revealed for correcting.

We are not to judge for it is not our place. But when God reveals his judgement, he invites us to intervene. Have you ever witnessed the very rare gift of prophecy? I have. When it is given to another to see something that only could be seen by God, it is an invitation by God to become active and save a soul. Save a soul from hell. Why else would he invite you to save them?

You did not destroy their soul... that is not something that any man has the power to do...

Oh but on the contrary it is clear that God gives this power of his to some. It is his discretion to do so. Many times those who are oppressed. God pours out himself very often:

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Why say this unless God told you they are a fool?

Perhaps you showed this person the light... or made them a better person. Though using hatred as a means for Good is not something i would recommend... Love destroys hate... Hate can not destroy hate.

Love destroys hate when there is a soft heart. And indeed, love in actions can create a fleshy heart. But there is a place for hate, and it has a place for good. Hatred caused God to kick Adam and Eve out of the garden. Anger of them, hatred of their sins. Indeed, hatred of sins is what motivates the self to righteousness.

Lets just say.... I just know. Hell is nothing but a fear tactic... it wasn't in original scripture.

It was. In fact, in many cases, It was partially created by the Judea Christian tradition.


If we go by what we "feel" is right without proof, there are problems. Many problems. I have skills in me that are not my own. They have simply always been there. Not from any genetic origin. Sometimes they come about on a moment's notice when they are needed, and then leave when no longer needed. With these, there are also dreams. Vivid dreams. Events, places, both past present and future. In my youthful ignorance, I thought reincarnation. Now with knowledge, I see it is from the spirit. Spirits are reused. Like the spirit of Elijah in John the Baptist. Spirits contain the ethos of a skill, a purpose, and a reason to go on. In history, people have "harnessed" spirits and gone into fits of strangeness. The soul is the self, but the spirit is from God. And the Holy Spirit, the very essence of God put into you from Jesus Christ's capturing of you. That which has Christ cannot surely die or go into hell, for it has the spirit of Christ, and Christ could not stay in hell after death.


That, too, is proof of Hell. Christ went somewhere in death. And it was not heaven. It is clearly stated that he ascended from some place down low.

Now im not saying there isn't a place for the wicked... But there is no place of eternal fire and damnation that some christians throw at you.

Then why does Jesus save?

Originally posted by miniatus

His name is John Spong. He's Episcopalian, not Catholic.

reply to post by Gorman91

But How? We enter into life as nothing. We need parents. We cannot even poop without problems. We cannot be perfect. For we change.

Everything changes, including the spirit of man....

Spiritually perfect? Again, I am not sure. Our souls are clean perhaps. But I believe in original sin, because it makes sense. If there wasn't original sin, man would not create religion to rid himself of it.

You contradict yourself if you believe we are born into sin... if that is the case your soul can't very well be clean can it....

I also believe in original sin, but not in the same sense as you...

Original sin is your own sins from previous lives... Thus the reason some are born with illness and deformity.

The story of Adam and even is exactly that... a story.

Proverb 20:11 — Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

A child can not be known by his doings unless he was taught before his "doings"... As you said, thats why we have parents... There are "bad" children of course, but whos fault is it that they're bad? They certainly were not born that way...

I think it is indeed directed at the innocence of children. But we start as children to be brought up spiritually to adults. If you remain a child always, then what is gained? Always retain innocence, but life is inherently against innocence. And sins done many times loose the right to call it youthful innocence.

Right, its the parents job to teach their children correctly.... not all do this well.

Notice it didn't say "remain as a child"... it says "become AS little children" It does not mean "remain" a child...

That means there is no growth....

Look...
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

I do remember hatred as a child. One of my earliest memories is when I was either 4 or 5. I remember feeling some level of hatred at things relevant in my life.

You learned to hate... that emotion did not come with being born...

But it never says that will end, in either case. Furthermore, he does judge you, but it is heavily implied that the judgement of believers is at a different scale to the nonbelievers. On the day of judgement, when Christ divides the sheep and the goats, where are the nonbelievers?

Why would it end?

Non-believers are judged according to their deeds... At death, everyone will believe...because they will be shown the truth.... but they will still be judged none the less... regardless of their beliefs or lack there of.

There is clearly mentioned a hell.

Look up the word Gehenna...

On "life being perfect"

are you certain?

100%...

What of Enoch? What of Elijah? Supposedly they return on the last day, only to be the first to resurrection. But not everyone in the bible has died whom was born a man.

What about them?

Not everyone that has died in the past has actually died either... their spirits live on...

It also says heaven is to be destroyed. Because even now, heaven is not perfect. How could it be? Satan rebelled in it.

Satan represents materialism.... the dude with the pitchfork doesn't exist....

Ever wonder why Seraph in the court of God cover their faces? Seems to me like they dare not even look at the place where Satan sinned.

yes thats nice...

I do not believe in the fairytales within the bible.... Satan is materialism...

And if there is actually a spirit or entity "satan".... I believe he is just doing his job... that is tempting man to turn from God...

The war in heaven was a lie... it never happened.

An angel CAN NOT turn against his creator... it makes no sence... its like an ant trying to over run your house.

Yes. But what, they just go ahead and enjoy a bland heaven? It makes it quite clear, such as with the master of Lazarus, that they go into the deep pit.

again just a story... im guessing you believe the afterlife to be a party or something along those lines...

Its a transitional place where we prepare for our next incarnation if its necessary.... IF you haven't learned what you were sent to learn.... you will return to the physical realm for more learning.

Oh but on the contrary it is clear that God gives this power of his to some. It is his discretion to do so. Many times those who are oppressed. God pours out himself very often:

I disagree no man has power to destroy the soul...

Prove your words with scripture please...

Why say this unless God told you they are a fool?

Jesus didn't say that... he knew better.

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Love destroys hate when there is a soft heart. And indeed, love in actions can create a fleshy heart. But there is a place for hate, and it has a place for good. Hatred caused God to kick Adam and Eve out of the garden. Anger of them, hatred of their sins. Indeed, hatred of sins is what motivates the self to righteousness.

And who among us is righteous?

That which has Christ cannot surely die or go into hell, for it has the spirit of Christ, and Christ could not stay in hell after death.


That, too, is proof of Hell. Christ went somewhere in death. And it was not heaven. It is clearly stated that he ascended from some place down low.

Yes he did, he went to "the afterlife"... like we all do.

And how does one "ascend" from below?

Then why does Jesus save?

Because his words are pure truth... he gives you proof of the afterlife if you chose to believe his life was true...

With that knowledge you are saved from physical death... but in fact we are all saved from physical death, that has never changed... it is a gift from God... And he sent his son to prove it to humanity...

Though again... once you get to the afterlife... you must deal with the deeds of your life

Originally posted by IamCorrect

Originally posted by miniatus

His name is John Spong. He's Episcopalian, not Catholic.

Regardless of what you call him, his words ring true. It takes guts to step out of the box and speak the truth. This dude is alright with me.

reply to post by Myollinir


Ok.....what if I watch pornography with my significant other?

Originally posted by intelligenthoodlum33

Regardless of what you call him, his words ring true. It takes guts to step out of the box and speak the truth. This dude is alright with me.

How do you know what he believes to be true is the truth?

reply to post by Akragon

Everything changes, including the spirit of man....

Change is imperfection. It implies that perfection has to be obtained. And if it is given at birth, but loss, then how can life be perfect?

You contradict yourself if you believe we are born into sin... if that is the case your soul can't very well be clean can it....

The Bible says

God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21

If they call God made flesh "sin", it implies that to be human is to sin.

Original sin is your own sins from previous lives... Thus the reason some are born with illness and deformity.

Past lives do not exist. How can they? Why save a man from a boat that isn't sinking?

The story of Adam and even is exactly that... a story.

Picking and choosing.

A child can not be known by his doings unless he was taught before his "doings"... As you said, thats why we have parents... There are "bad" children of course, but whos fault is it that they're bad? They certainly were not born that way...

On the contrary, it is somewhat clear that one of the reasons the flood came was to destroy the children of "the sons of God" and the "daughters of men". It's pretty accepted that whatever those things were, they were damned before they were born.

There are children born evil.

Look... 4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven

This is in submission to God as a child to a parent.

You learned to hate... that emotion did not come with being born...

Then why is there a part of the brain evolved to process hatred.

Because you are born with the emotion. It is never learned nor taught.

psychcentral.com...

Why would it end? Non-believers are judged according to their deeds... At death, everyone will believe...because they will be shown the truth.... but they will still be judged none the less... regardless of their beliefs or lack there of.

If it never ends, and you are being punished, then Hell exists.

It is not yet sure how it all works out after death. But its clear that the judgement of the lambs and goats was only about believers. So where are the nonbelievers?

Look up the word Gehenna...

On "life being perfect"

Gehenna is a place where unfaithfulness to God occurred. It's no different than how some veterans regard their former place of fighting as "hell"

100%...

Not enough proof in the front of so much against it.

What about them? Not everyone that has died in the past has actually died either... their spirits live on...

Their spirit is not themselves. It is their skills, their tendencies, and their moments of glory. Like an autosave point for another player to start off from.

Satan represents materialism.... the dude with the pitchfork doesn't exist....

The dude with the pitchfork doesn't exist, but Satan does. He is a being of light. An angle. Built and created to lead. God gave him independence. In Islam, this is regarded as one of the first points where God created free will with him and the other Jinn. Christianity essentially agrees with this. They are in rebellion.

I have faced such creatures in the same dreams I mentioned.

yes thats nice... I do not believe in the fairytales within the bible.... Satan is materialism... And if there is actually a spirit or entity "satan".... I believe he is just doing his job... that is tempting man to turn from God... The war in heaven was a lie... it never happened. An angel CAN NOT turn against his creator... it makes no sence... its like an ant trying to over run your house.

Then you are picking and choosing and wrong. You either accept it all or not. To go half way is to claim to know more than God. That's hell bound if you ask me.

again just a story... im guessing you believe the afterlife to be a party or something along those lines... Its a transitional place where we prepare for our next incarnation if its necessary.... IF you haven't learned what you were sent to learn.... you will return to the physical realm for more learning.

I don't know what heaven is. I do not think it will be a party. I do not believe in reincarnation. I do not believe in karma. I do not believe heaven can be understood. I do not believe it has any sort of material nor spiritual understanding. If the Spirit is what a man has done and the soul what a man is, then heaven, a place for the soul, is something else entirely uncertain. It does not have parties. It does not have virgins. It does not have sex. It has nothing of the real world, and once there, is not something to be understood, bu experiences.

I disagree no man has power to destroy the soul... Prove your words with scripture please...

If you do not believe all of scripture, why should I look at scripture to prove you wrong?

You pick and chose. Therefore scripture is irrelevant for you.

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Yes he said hell exists. See? But are you picking and choosing again?

It is also said "Do not sin in your anger".

And who among us is righteous?

None alone. Those whom God shows to be so in his grace.

Yes he did, he went to "the afterlife"... like we all do. And how does one "ascend" from below?

One ascends from bellow because bellow is bellow where one is ascending too. lol duh.

He did not go to the afterlife. He went to hell. Before Christ, all souls went to hell, but a part of hell is reserved for God's chosen. Christ took them out of this place of waiting to their rewards in heaven. It seems since then, either people who die psychically die forever, "crying out" from their graves for justice, and to be risen on the last day. Others say you go directly to heaven. Because the martyrs still cry out from their graves and some go onto heaven, it is inherent that this is not necessarily figured out yet. The spirit of the man may call out to justice and do work in another, while his soul enjoys eternity.

Because his words are pure truth... he gives you proof of the afterlife if you chose to believe his life was true...

He said you live once, then die.

With that knowledge you are saved from physical death... but in fact we are all saved from physical death, that has never changed... it is a gift from God... And he sent his son to prove it to humanity...

False. Only the believers are saved from spiritual death. We all must die.

Though again... once you get to the afterlife... you must deal with the deeds of your life

If I am forgiven, why?





I can punch many plot holes in your belief, as seen above. Please consider that you are wrong.


Most serious is reincarnation. Something totally false.

If my dreams really were reincarnation, why am I never punished? Why do I continue to progress to better experiences despite every one of the lives I see in my mind being lives lead in destructive tendencies? Explain to me why I never suffer a day's punishment for them.

I say because reincarnation does not exist. Because those are creative images from my mind, or images of what my spirit has done for others in time. A spirit not my own. My soul is my own.

The soul is not the spirit.

Hell is a very real physical event, but please know ~

It is eternal in consequence, not in duration.

Selah