Who needs doctrine and dogma? The important thing is to be good person.

How do you do that without God? You can't be a loving person without Him.

Father Barron has great thoughts on subjects of faith, see and hear his commentary on this question, especially the last three or four minutes of the nine minute Youtube.


www.youtube.com...

i thought this was going to be an insightful thread.

Would the christian god see a christian hypocrite in a more favorable light than an unbeliever who's heart is pure, acts are generous, and ways are good and just?
Would the christian god give favor to the sheep who scorned giving solace to the broken heart and shirked his duty as a fellow man by helping those in need, or smile on the infidel who's actions are wholeheartedly given without thought of reward in this life or the afterlife to come?
Is it better to be a christian thinking that all you do here will be rewarded in heaven, or someone who does the right thing for the sake of truth and love, not rewards?

So I guess only the people of the christian religion are loving?

reply to post by colbe


What I see in that video is the Church trying to commandeer the act of treating others with respect for it's own nefarious ends and making out that without religion it is meaningless.

This is complete nonsense and the priest himself contradicts his premise in his first sentence.

Being a good person is about treating others and you would hope to be treated and that is where the priest made his mistake. He implies that without God it is treating other as we would expect to be treated and that is not the same thing.

Sorry but the Church and religion do not have a monopoly on being good, indeed it is so often the case that the non-religious persons are actually much nicer better people than those who take the dogma of religion to heart and actually have no room for anything else.

I dare you to say that I don't love my family and friends to my face. How insincere, obtuse, and rude can you be to tell someone that without God that they have the inability to love?

I think what the OP requires is a redefining of the term "loving person". What is love, after all? Very few seem to understand it. Christ asked us to love each other as we love ourselves. That doesn't mean only loving a handful of people. That means loving everyone and fighting with it. To this day he seems to be the only one who has lived up to that example.

That my misguided brother is where you are very wrong.

1 Cor 13:1-13 Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

1If I speak in the tonguesa of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,b but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
I think what the OP requires is a redefining of the term "loving person". What is love, after all? Very few seem to understand it. Christ asked us to love each other as we love ourselves. That doesn't mean only loving a handful of people. That means loving everyone and fighting with it. To this day he seems to be the only one who has lived up to that example.

edit on 21-12-2011 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Exactly, which is whereby only his grace can save us. Even with the laws of Moses man could still not live righteous as mankind after given those laws began to do right by them as according to man and not according to God which is but one of the man reasons Jesus was sent to be the light in the darkness.

Originally posted by novastrike81
I dare you to say that I don't love my family and friends to my face. How insincere, obtuse, and rude can you be to tell someone that without God that they have the inability to love?

You may love your friends and family, but do you love your enemies as you love your friends and family? Could you die to save the life of someone you hate or is a total stranger to you? If the answer is no then it is not "true love".

Jesus is true love for he gave his life so that everyone who believed in him would not die the spiritual death. He died for even you. Could you die for someone you do not know? Would you? Or would you say to yourself "well, better him than me"?

Originally posted by colbe

How do you do that without God? You can't be a loving person without Him.

Father Barron has great thoughts on subjects of faith, see and hear his commentary on this question, especially the last three or four minutes of the nine minute Youtube.

www.youtube.com...

You can't claim to be a loving person while making judgements about others being unloving because they don't believe "in him".

I even went as far as watching the video and it's basically saying morality and even love is worthless or insincere without belief in god. He could have just come out and said "atheists are inherently immoral" in ten seconds but because he doesn't want to sound like an overt bigot he wasted ten minutes of bandwidth to say it in a nice way instead. Smooth.

I was really hoping for something positive in this thread but it I feel like I've been suckerpunched.


Love is the answer.

For all who believe in it please do not let this kind of negativity drag you down.

I've noticed a couple of things here which I can really sympathize with. The first is the rejection of the idea that you have to be a certain religion, or denomination, to love someone or be a loving person. As has been pointed out, this could really be a problem stemming from definitions.

May I show you something that came out of the Catholic Church's Vatican II?

In fact, those who through no fault of their own are not aware of the Gospel of Christ and of the Church, but who nonetheless search sincerely for God, and with the help of grace attempt to carry out His will, known through the dictates of their conscience--they too can attain eternal salvation. Nor will Divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who have not yet arrived at a clear knowledge and recognition of God, and who attempt, not without divine grace to conduct a good life." (Lumen Gentium 16)

It points out that some will be saved without even hearing of Jesus, or any religion, and that a good life can be lived without any religion.* (*Certain restrictions apply.)

There is a very interesting thread which I was priveleged to participate in. It was one of my five best ATS experiences. The headline is "Why I am moral, (by an Atheist)." Please consider looking at it. Akragon and bogomil are brilliant in it.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by novastrike81
I dare you to say that I don't love my family and friends to my face. How insincere, obtuse, and rude can you be to tell someone that without God that they have the inability to love?

You may love your friends and family, but do you love your enemies as you love your friends and family? Could you die to save the life of someone you hate or is a total stranger to you? If the answer is no then it is not "true love".

Yes, I would die to save the life of a complete stranger. I did my 3 tours over in Iraq so at least I have something to show for it. As for my enemies, as long as they don't threaten my life, then I'd show some compassion where it's warrented.

Originally posted by colbe

How do you do that without God? You can't be a loving person without Him.

....

Its easy, because love is real and the christian version of god is fiction.

May I ask some questions that have helped clarify things for me?

Assume that love gets you a big reward here on earth that is greater than what it costs you. Then aren't you just "looking out for number one," and making a good business deal? How can you take pride in that? Saying you loved someone today is then morally equivalent to saying you made some money today.

Now, what if love costs you a lot more on earth than it gives you? (As in sacrificial death.) Why love? If you think the afterlife is a fairy tale,and the world is all there is, then you are nuts to love, because you lose when you do it. What part of your morality says it is good to hurt yourself for less reward than you lost?

(I know this doesn't seem right on an emotional or everyday level, that's why I had to assume there was more to life than this world. That was the only way my reality and feelings could coexist with my logic.)

This is just one of the reasons why I think morality has to look beyond this world.

Originally posted by colbe

How do you do that without God? You can't be a loving person without Him.

How can you say that? Again you come on here and tell us what to do, and we are this and that without your God. I love everyone, even you, colbe, so don't even go there. Can't be a loving person....I think you are very young, with little real world experience.

Originally posted by colbe

www.youtube.com...

Watch the Youtube. Father Barron states, to most people being a good person means to be a person of love. How are you going to be loving without God?
God is perfect, "He has no need." He is the only one who acts "totally in a non-self interested way", so we see why the the Church teaches "love is a participation in God's way of being." We need God then. It is only with His help
that we can be good, this help which is God's presence is called grace.

It's all about God so it is false to say, I don't need doctrine or dogma, the important
thing is to be a good person.

Could you name this "God of Love" you speak of? God is a job description, not a proper name, colbe. Name your God. I'll bet I know a few things about him that are not so loving.

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by colbe

How do you do that without God? You can't be a loving person without Him.

How can you say that? Again you come on here and tell us what to do, and we are this and that without your God. I love everyone, even you, colbe, so don't even go there. Can't be a loving person....I think you are very young, with little real world experience.

autowrench, Merry Christmas,

Please, no more of the personal attack, this is a discussion forum. You sound like a child, I am not telling anyone what to do. What I post, you don't agree with. I wish you would read some history of the faith. The beliefs of the first Christians were Roman Catholic because they were Roman Catholics, read their quotes.

Saint Ignatius as a boy knew St. John the Apostle. Saint Ignatius was the
3rd Bishop of Antioch. He used the term "Catholic" for the first time.
"3rd Bishop" and knowing the beloved Apostle tells you much right there.

I don't agree with your proclaiming yourself to be "divine." You were created by God who alone is divine. He loves you so much, He desires to be present in you, His presence in you is called sanctifying grace.

One first receives God's sanctifying grace in Baptism.

We lose God's presence, His grace in us when we sin seriously. God can't be where sin is... To restore God in us, with true Contrition, confess your mortal (grave) sins to God. Catholics have to do more, they follow
as Our established it, they must go to Confession - John 20:23.

oops, typed too fast....


We lose God's presence, His grace in us when we sin seriously. God can't be where sin is... To restore God in us, with true Contrition, confess your mortal (grave) sins to God. Catholics have to do more, they follow
as Our Lord established it, they must go to Confession - John 20:23.