Greening the Sahara: A Simple Idea

reply to post by Doublemint





I forgot deserts weren't arid. sorry.

Really? Are you serious or have you a bruised ego?

reply to post by HossBog


It appears we are finally getting on the same page. Yes it would take time as well as multiple processes at work. And it is not as simple as transplanting a rainforest in(but that is covered in my report). See I am looking at global benefits.

Removing salt from the sea to obtain fresh water does not fix the fact that fresh water does not mix well if at all in some areas. By collecting the fresh water melt offs and lakes you are avoiding the surface layer of fresh water on the oceans that has altered the Earths climates through ocean current shifts and slowdowns. By fixing the climate shifts due to these ocean currents you can adjust the rainfall to the benefit of regions that are and were effected by the change in the first place. This makes the job easier, slows down the oceans rising, and allows for the control of environments in dire need.

As for me wanting one guy on a forum to solve the problem is insane. I simply was attempting to show it is not that simple. The OP states it as an end all solution and it is not. I am not even cutting down the possibility just showing there is more to it than evaporating water from the ocean.

reply to post by HossBog


my ego is bruised, but if you are going to go about this and say such and such mine aswell have your classifications right.

reply to post by Agarta


Yes I think we're getting there. How do you change the amount of rainfall? More moisture in plants and evaporative ponds = more humidity = more rainfall. Dry desert air respons well to evaporation. Look at the floods in central Australia. We're still seeing wildflowers that haven't been seen for a hundred years. The floods were a few years ago. Also all these new f####king animals are popping up out of the desert floor that have never been catalogued. (Toads, Snakes and EEEEELLLLSSS ewww.) Who knows what you could find in AFRICA!!!! I really like this thread and mean no disrespect to anyone. I may have been a bit smart arsed in my responses. I apologise.

reply to post by Doublemint



Gave you a star. Sorry, was being a JERK. Seriously, sorry.

But a desert is classified as an arid region.

reply to post by Agarta


Do you agree though that it might be more cost effective than moving ice bergs from the polar regions? And remember you're thinking large scale, I'm talking things your average Arab or man from Tatooine might do. Not "Lets Terraform a Continent" stuff.

reply to post by HossBog


Yes in some ways I do however, in my plan, plastic is recycled in order to make equipment AND products to sustain the cost above the need for donations or grants. Each location working in their local regions to the same ends and means. All playing a local part to affect the changes on a global scale. Does that make sense?

Yes, the process both you and the OP show are very much a viable process within the whole vision of the plan and cost can be diverted through products made from scrap.

Originally posted by HossBog
reply to post by Agarta

 

Yes I think we're getting there. How do you change the amount of rainfall? More moisture in plants and evaporative ponds = more humidity = more rainfall. Dry desert air respons well to evaporation. Look at the floods in central Australia. We're still seeing wildflowers that haven't been seen for a hundred years. The floods were a few years ago. Also all these new f####king animals are popping up out of the desert floor that have never been catalogued. (Toads, Snakes and EEEEELLLLSSS ewww.) Who knows what you could find in AFRICA!!!! I really like this thread and mean no disrespect to anyone. I may have been a bit smart arsed in my responses. I apologise.

Sorry to back track I was away for a bit.

Yes, it is a process of building the new ecosystem that involves several transplants. The difference between collecting the water and bringing it in and going the evaporation route is timing. At first the evaporation process would be too slow where the bringing it in is much faster and can be much more water to the area which is needed to overcome the evaporation of the fresh water supplied.

There are mosses that can sustain life in arid regions given water. These are the beginning stages. These mosses are grown on the outer edges as you described and their water must be surface water once a "bed" is created it is taken to an area of choice to begin the ecoprocess. It is allowed to die. These mosses reproduce rapidly and are harvested often to be placed in the choice region to die. this begins the fertilization and weighs down the sand.

the next stage about six months later, are as you stated salt bushes and they are treated the same as the moss. They are taken green and young and allowed to die. during this period water is begun to be transported to the area forming a lake that is continuously fed to overcome the evaporation. The transported water will begin to help the moss,grasses, and bushes to survive on its edges creating a "bed" that traps moisture.

About 6 months later small trees like palms are bought in, as they have a shallow root base, wood eating insects, and small rodents. The insects help with the break down, the rodents help with seed spreading, and both will bring in reptiles to balance them out. Fresh water plants are brought in along with fish to begin the ecoprocess of the new lake.

Then larger trees(including young rain forest trees, bats(to balance insects further), larger rodents and small cats to balance the rodent and reptiles. The purpose of the rain forest trees are because they trap evaporating water and can sit on the shoreline. Eventually they begin to form thier own weather patterns forcing the evaporated water back into the lake.

Meanwhile the sea evaporation method and aqueducts are added to the system to maintain the plant and animal life beyond the lake. By doing it this way you can slowly move into the desert from the edges growing what is needed and expanding into the desert toward the lake and transplanted area so to work in both directions.

This is an over simplified explanation of the process but I think you get the jist of it.

It's too bad the GMR (en.wikipedia.org...) was destroyed (humanrightsinvestigations.org...) During the Libya campaign....

Basically under Qaddafi's devastating tyrannical rule of oppression and pain (sarcasm) he invested his own god **** money into the building of this project. Libya had it's own nationally built/funded/maintained water source for the next thousand years. But hey....we can't have self sufficient countries disobeying TPTB.

reply to post by Agarta


Now we're on the same page. We seem to be making progress here. Sorry for calling you a JERK. It appears as though I might have been the JERK. It stirs the brain, no? Good thread. This is what we need, more critical thought on the subject. It's a gradual process, we aint gonna do the whole continent in one theory, there's a lot to consider. I like the bats and rodents in your post, hadn't thought of that. The Birds and the Bees will help too! Remember that the link I gave before, the Aussies were growing Fig trees and dates in 4 months, thats with sand/sh#t soil full of salt. I am glad we came to a consensus, even if it aint the Sahara, there's still a a lot of desert that can be reclaimed.

Good thought provoking thread.


PS : Am I as ignorant as you thought initially?

Originally posted by apacheman
Why not just sail some water there?

I'd like to form a company to corral icebergs and sail them where they are needed.

Berg harvesters, if you will.

What would be required would be a few ocean-going tugboats, some ice mining equipment, a couple of water tankers, and some detachable motors or sails.

The idea would be to find an iceberg, attach towing lines to it and begin to tow it towards wherever the water is needed, while shaping it into more manageable shapes and sizes through ice mining, creating a flat top for mounting sails and conducting mining operations.

A "shore" team would begin mining the ice and transferring it into the holds of the tankers, which when full would sail to their destinations. Once arrived, they would have three things to sell; water, ice, and a thermal gradient that could be used for heat exchangers, sort of free air conditioning and power extraction.

It would serve multiple purposes: remove hazards from sea lanes, provide a valuable precious commodity, provide scientific data through core samples, and provide a useful thermal gradient.

Any takers?

take all those whaling ships and with minor modifications create the ice mining rigs necessary to harvest the burgs while in transit. it could work but would require someone with pockets as deep as Rupert Murdock or Warren Buffet.

reply to post by CaDreamer


Or we could get the ice from passing comets!!!! Or we could get it out of sea water. Guess what will cost less. Come on guys. We aren't going to harvest ice bergs. Get a grip.


Oops i forgot. Human nature to dismiss good ideas and come up with a ludicrous solution. You guys are funny.

Originally posted by Agarta
The OP states it as an end all solution and it is not. I am not even cutting down the possibility just showing there is more to it than evaporating water from the ocean.

OP here. Look, the idea of pumping seawater into containment/evaporation ponds in the desert is one that I believe represents a very low tech simple way to get freshwater into the desert. That's all.

Of course there is more to making a viable agricultural enterprise out of the situation. Undoubtedly there are innumerable technical issues involved. But my point is that with such a fundamentally simple basic idea that seems sure to work, at least in wetting someplace out there in the sand, the rest of the complexities and the solutions to them are essentially secondary considerations that can be solved.

Personally, I think you could just create a "spring" in the desert this way, with evaporation ponds and walk away from it. I'll bet that within a year or two, there would be a mini-oasis there. And that is involving doing nothing but creating the spring.

Obviously it would pay to strategize much more intensively to create a productive oasis, but the bottom line is that the essence of the idea is simple and doable and low tech, requiring minimal maintenance. Not no maintenance but maintenance on a very low level.

Originally posted by Vardoger
Libya had it's own nationally built/funded/maintained water source for the next thousand years. But hey....we can't have self sufficient countries disobeying TPTB.

This world's biggest problem is the paranoic lunatic gangsters that run it. They make yo, yo, yo in the hood look like a choirboy.

OP good thread.

BUT.............I cannot believe the tripe that is being considered. Lets harvest icebergs? Come on. It's ok to be wrong once in a while. Yeah like sending "Ice mining Ships" to Antarctica and the Arctic is cost effective? You guys must be kidding, right? Polypipe and concrete seems like a more cost effective solution. I'll say it again, "come on guys" Grey matter.


Don't hate the player, hate the brain.

reply to post by HossBog

The situation is a little bit analogous to the one involving CGI in the movies. Once the equipment is there and the vested interests are there in using it, it becomes very hard not to use it when it really isn't necessary.

The idea that we are looking at in this thread could be done so easily, almost as a throw away side project, for the Saudis or the Libyans or the Californians that I am amazed that it isn't being done already.

With any project of any sort, there are people who will try to latch onto it and sell you their own add-on or technical embellishment, but someone should just try the bare bones essential of the idea somewhere. I can't see how it can fail.

There are places in Baha California and in North Africa where the desert is just an extension of the beach. This idea could be tried with a very small pump and a very small containment pond, just as an experiment.

Somebody has got to do this.

reply to post by ipsedixit


I see I've brought you to the "Dark Side" of the force. (The right side, it's only dark till you've seen the light). "Something something something Sahara, something something something Green." I applaud everyone for your input. Doesn't it seem like we should be doing this?

reply to post by HossBog

I would try this myself, in my own back yard if I lived in Baha. Unfortunately, for these purposes, living in Toronto next to Lake Ontario in the temperate zone is not ideal.

Here is a great slogan for the American branch of the enterprise: "Let's turn Death Valley into Napa Valley!"

reply to post by ipsedixit


A lot of your folk are moving over here. I'll do a small test on my verandah, I have access to seawater and lots of sunshine. I don't really need to though because it is allready working in some parts of the world. But if anyone wants proof, lets start a thread on "the most efficient solar still" you can make for f##kall money.

Death vally would be perfect if you could pump saltwater there.

reply to post by ipsedixit

The one big problem that i see with this is quite straight forward and simple.

There isn't supposed to be water in deserts, it's a particular environment and it would be ruined just a surely as clear cutting a rainforest.

Destroying more natural environment is not ever going to be the answer.