UFO's and air accidents- Important cases not to forget. pt 1

I would like to open this post by stating:

I am a cautious believer in UFO's,

I am definitely leaned towards the ET/ED hypothesis,

and I have done my research, read lots of books, and trawled through web and document pages.

Now I have made my position clear, I would like to draw your attention to a few cases, that are very interesting indeed.

I know these will have been discussed at length, on ATS and elsewhere in the past, but with the need to attract new interest, from new members, remind ourselves why we believe, and try to make the hardcore sceptics reconsider their position.

On January 7th 1948, one of the first tragic air accidents, linked to UFO's would occur,
The Kentucky State Highway Patrol, sent a report to Godman Army Airfield at Fort Knox, warning of an unusual aerial object near Maysville Kentucky, reports were also made from Owensboro and Irvington, Kentucky,
describing a circular object, 250 to 300 feet in diameter.

Shortly afterwards, personnel at Fort Knox's control tower, observed the object by eye, hovering in the same general vicinity for one and a half hours, and another witness at Lockbourne Army Air Field in Ohio, saw the object perform a dive manoeuvre, before climbing back to its previous altitude of 10,000 feet, levelling off, and disappearing into the overcast.

A formation of P-51 mustangs, flying over the base, was asked to look into the UFO, if their mission allowed.

Flight commander, Capt. Thomas Mantell agreed to try to intercept the unknown object,
accompanied by two other P-51's, Mantell climbed to a higher altitude.

When the planes reached 15,000 feet, the two pilots with Mantell turned back, due to the fact the P-51's were not equipped with oxygen, neither was Mantell's, but none the less he kept climbing.

At about 2:45 pm Mantell reported, "I have the object in sight above and ahead of me, and it appears to be moving at about half my speed or approximately 180 miles per hour", asked to describe the object, he said "it appears to be a metallic object, and it is of tremendous size".

At 3:15pm, Mantell made his last contact with the base, "directly ahead of me and slightly above, and is now moving at about my speed or better. I am trying to close in for a better look."

Mantell's plane then plummeted in a downward spiral and crashed, killing the pilot, apparently falling unconscious from lack of oxygen, due to the altitude.

It is worth noting, that witnesses at Godman AFB, described the object as both disk and cone shaped, brilliant white with a red border, while independent witnesses at Clinton Army air field, watched the object for 35 minutes, first thinking it was an aircraft in distress watched it with field binoculars, "It seemed to be pretty high in the air, appeared to change colour from white to red, to hover and then move, with great speed", during descents it appeared in the form of a upside down cone, when it climbed it seemed to turn itself the right way up, a green mist was seen in the objects wake.

One of the first explanations put forward for the crash, was that Mantell was chasing the Planet Venus, and since Capt. Mantell's description of the object was classified until 1985, no one challenged this version of events, even though air force personnel did not seem to believe the unlikely story, as it was the middle of the day, and it was not a celestial object that had been reported.

In 1952 the air force, under pressure from the media, ordered Edward Ruppelt head of the air force's UFO investigation unit, to look into the case.

Ruppelt had learnt that the Navy had secretly been releasing high altitude photographic reconnaissance Skyhook balloons, from Clinton county airfield, Wilmington, Ohio.

He concluded that the object that Mantell chased could have been a Skyhook balloon, which the air force the used as the new explanation for the incident, even though Ruppelt could not confirm any balloons had been released on the day in question.

This is one of the cases I think are worth sharing for people who may be unaware, I will bring more cases in the coming days, I just thought I would start with the earliest case possible, of an air accident involving a UFO.

Reference's-
en.wikipedia.org...
Richard Dolan's UFO's and the national security state

ATS threads-
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think you've potentially got an interesting thread.

The Mantell case caused a shift in the paradigm of UFO's since a service member was killed in a pursuit. Unfortunately, however, I don't think much of the Mantell case in the "grand scheme of things." Regardless of what he was chasing, be it a skyhook balloon, or UFO (we know it wasn't Venus), at the end of the day, Mantell was a low-time pilot in the P-51 Mustang and climbed to a ceiling that required supplemental oxygen. He passed out from hypoxia and never recovered. He crashed and died.

Still, it's an interesting case. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for your reply, this is my first thread.

I agree that this case is not the most important, or even close (apart from the tragic loss of life)

I intend to educate people to the sheer volume of extraordinary incidents, that have occurred, which they may not have heard of unless they have read some of the literature.

Also I do not agree that he was a low time pilot, he had clocked 2,167 hours in the air, and had been honoured for actions he took in the Battle of Normandy.

Google Video Link

UFO's: The Secret Evidence (Oct. 2005)

Fighter sightings, and pilots accounts, investigation.

reply to post by Soapusmaximus


Its an interesting case to say the least.

Yes, Mantell had about 2000 hours, which is a considerable amount of time, but he had low time in the P-51 Mustang. Proficiency in one type of aircraft does not equate proficiency in all types of aircraft.

I believe this case to be worthy of inclusion
www.ufoevidence.org...
Off site account from the above site
---------------------------------------------------------
Valentich reported in this transmission that "a large aircraft" appeared below him, then apparently passed over his aircraft. He felt it was an "unknown aircraft" particularly because of its apparent speed. It approached him from the east and seemed to be "playing some sort of game", "flying over me two three times at speeds I could not identify". Frederick Valentich emphasised, "It's not an aircraft ... it's flying past, it's a long shape." Then he described, "it seems like its stationary.
What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also it's got a green light and sort of metallic (like) it's all shiny (on) the outside." One minute later Valentich said the object was approaching his aircraft from the Southwest. Then the Cessna's engine started rough idling. Frederick Valentich's last transmission was, "...that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It is hovering and it's not an aircraft." 17 seconds of open microphone followed with metallic like sounds hear, perhaps like the rapid keying of the plane's microphone, and then silence. An intensive air, sea and land search followed over the next 4 days. No trace of pilot or plane was ever found
--------------------------------------------------------------

Before you put Mantell in the bin, you must take a long look at the skyhook/mogul balloon project that started in 1947 and decide what to do with that. Both Roswell and the Mantell cases have that project as the culprit, (in the case of Roswell, eventually) and probably others, that is if you believe the official story. Not so then for what Kenneth Arnold saw, it would not fit. Anyway, have a look at this man's story of working on the balloon projects for years, essentially it starts off plausibly, and ends up as a ridicule of what people thought they saw or made up or copied from OLDER stories in his imo. This is the type of thing you're up against and you have to make your own mind up,

www.csicop.org...

Whatever that pilot saw, he was willing to climb at and above 15,000' to get a closer look and subsequently die from lack of Oxygen. As a military pilot, surely he knew the risk that he was taking.

And they try to suggest he was chasing the planet Venus? Or that it was a balloon?

Winds at 15,000 don't reach 180 MPH or greater... Maybe they do up in the 35,000' region, but no pilot could even make it that high without Oxygen... Whatever he saw, he was willing to die to get a closer look. Imagine that.

Originally posted by Sek82
Whatever that pilot saw, he was willing to climb at and above 15,000' to get a closer look and subsequently die from lack of Oxygen. As a military pilot, surely he knew the risk that he was taking.

And they try to suggest he was chasing the planet Venus? Or that it was a balloon?

Winds at 15,000 don't reach 180 MPH or greater... Maybe they do up in the 35,000' region, but no pilot could even make it that high without Oxygen... Whatever he saw, he was willing to die to get a closer look. Imagine that.

I'm sorry...I know the point you're trying to make here, but he was just stupid. The other pilots in his squadron realized the limits of their planes or their oxygen supply and aborted. Military or civilian, the fact that he died while purposely pushing the limits of his aircraft make him an idiot. The other members of his squadron returned home safely to their families and he did not...As far as I know, he is the only pilot to have died during a UFO encounter or pursuit...this makes him the exception, not the rule. I have served in the military in the emergency services and served as a civilian as a flight nurse and paramedic on an ambulance, helicopter, and fixed wing....we have a saying, "I'm going home at the end of my shift." This is regardless of the patient condition. If I'm dead, then I can do no good for whom I'm serving. Mantell had low time in the P-51 aircraft, he demonstrated a lack of responsibility and maturity chasing whatever he thought he saw and died subsequently because of it.

We can honor him because of his service....but...Lesson Learned...

reply to post by Cosmic911

Yes, Mantell had about 2000 hours, which is a considerable amount of time, but he had low time in the P-51 Mustang. Proficiency in one type of aircraft does not equate proficiency in all types of aircraft.

I understand your point, but the mustang is a prop driven plane, very similar to other prop planes.
But I do concede that lack of experience in the plane could have contributed.

12 volts-

I believe this case to be worthy of inclusion

The Valentich incident, has always been one of my favourites, I find the 17 seconds of metallic scraping sounds very spooky, and in my view only leaves one explanation, this will be addressed in later continued threads on the air accident topic.

As far as I know, he is the only pilot to have died during a UFO encounter or pursuit...this makes him the exception, not the rule

He is in no way the only pilot to lose his life in a UFO encounter, there are probably hundreds.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Couple of examples, there are many more, I will elaborate over the coming days.

Just as a follow up, to cosmic911,

I don't think Mantell showed lack of maturity, for all we know the control tower ordered him to get as close as he could, he could have been "dazzled" and distracted, and it could be related to the lack of oxygen.

All I am saying, is we don't know all the ins and outs.

Interesting thread -here's another one for the collection from Puerto Rico in 1980 where the pilots report witnessing a 'weird' object which made them change course three times and were never heard from again.

The Disappearance of flight N3808H, Puerto Rico, 1980:

Location. Mona Channel, Caribbean Ocean near Puerto Rico

Date: June 28 1980

At 1810 Jose Antonio Maldonado Torres and his friend, Jose Pagan Santos, took off from Las Americas International Airport in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic in an Ercoupe aircraft marked N3808H.
The Ercoupe was owned by Santo’s father Jose Pagan Jimenez, an Aero
Police officer in Puerto Rico. They were bound for home in Puerto Rico. At 2003 the Las Mesas radar site and several aircraft picked up radio transmissions from N3808H:


“Mayday, Mayday, Ercoupe ocho cero, eight zero, zero, Hotel. We can see a strange object in our course, we are lost, Mayday, Mayday.”


An Iberia Airlines flight IB-976 en route from Santo Domingo to Spain responded to the Mayday and received a reply:


“Ah we are going from Santo Domingo to ah San Juan International but we found ah a weird object in our course that made us change course about three different times we got it right in front of us now at one o’clock, our heading is zero seven zero degrees…our altitude one thousand six hundred a zero seven zero degrees…our VORs got lost off frequency…”


Iberia Flight IB-976 then relayed a message from San Juan Center asking N3808H to turn on their transponder.
N3808H replied that the Ercoupe was not equipped with a transponder. At 2006 Iberia IB-976 asked for their call sing and estimated position and received this reply:


“Right now we are supposed to be a about thirty five miles from the coast of Puerto Rico but we have something weird in front of us that make us lose course all the time I changed our course a second (unintelligible) our present heading right now is three hundred we are right again in the same stuff sir.”


They were not heard from again. At 2012 the Atlantic Fleet Weapons Range verified the last radar position of N3808H as thirty five miles west of Puerto Rico. A search that included Santos’s father was then mounted which centered on this last radar position. It was discontinued after two days when no trace had been found. No trace was ever found.

Flight recording - pilot's last transmission

UFOs - Close Range Sightings

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12


Very interesting Karl12, I would like to ask to stay focused on the Mantell case, on this thread.

But you have given me another incident to fit into the timeline.

This is kind of the point I will be making with this series of threads.........That UFO incidents are by no means rare,

And the extent of the information suppression.

A lot of these incidents have only come to light, because of changes to the freedom of information system made by Ronald Reagan. These changes were later reversed, but left us with a wealth of military UFO documents, proving that TPTB were just as clueless as everyone else as to the nature of this phenomenon.

reply to post by Soapusmaximus

I don't think Mantell showed lack of maturity, for all we know the control tower ordered him to get as close as he could, he could have been "dazzled" and distracted, and it could be related to the lack of oxygen.

A control tower could not order him to do anything. When in the cockpit, a pilot is known as the PIC, or "Pilot in Command," this means the pilot has "Operational Control" of the aircraft, no one else. Additionally, other pilots that night flying aborted the chase either because of fuel or oxygen reserves. Saying that could have been "dazzled" or "distracted" is speculative and presumptive. If he was distracted than I reiterate that he lacked maturity and responsibility, and it killed him. He pushed the limits of his aircraft above and beyond its capabilities and it killed him ultimately.

BTW...I love your avatar pic! That is awesome.