Intolerance by those preaching tolerance (the tram ride)

Originally posted by blupblup
I didn't hear her say anything racist?

Sorry, I missunderstood you when you wrote

Originally posted by blupblup
She was provoked and was being racially abused so she fought back using the same tactics.

Originally posted by blupblup
I heard her say we come over because you're too lazy.... I would imagine she meant British people... so that would be xenophobia at worst, but I suppose a racist mind would spot racism easier...

In what sense is it xenophobia and not racist to call white people too lazy to work?

If I said Black people were too lazy to work, would that only be xenophobia and not racism?

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by colin42

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by colin42
reply to post by theruthlessone

 

You know what. He has actually said that. 'There are a few good people from London.' springs to mind in another thread.

You would not use the same argument if I said I have some female friends to say I am sexist. Or that I have some elderly friends means I am ageist.

But hey if it makes you happy to try to score cheap points rather than discuss the real issue, what ever floats your boat

Please, if you're going to quote me, quote me in full.

I said "There are a few good people from London - None of them sport a London accent". The implication being that the only decent Londoners I know are faux-Londoners who've emigrated there for economic reasons. Ie, not Londoners at all.

You dont see the intolerance in that? Why is your predjudice against Londoners a fair belief?

So if you were on a tram in your town and you heard a 'real London accent' would you feel justified in telling him to go back down south to London?

If you say you would not could you say that if you were drunk or mentally ill that you would not blurt this out as you obviously believe it and worse believe it to be true.

What makes you right and Emma wrong?

I have no prejudice against Londoners - Only truths born of observation

I judge people on individual merit. Drunk or otherwise I have never attacked a Londoner for being a Londoner and told them to go back down South. And I've been drunk enough times, let me tell you.

What makes me right and Emma wrong is that I'm not a racist pig. You seem to be strung up on my elite banter and devils advocacy. Further confirming that Londoners aren't very intelligent

You can make that judgment call on ALL Londoners based on those you have met?

Do you know how many people live in London?

Deny it all you wish. You have hate problems based on a prejudiced viewpoint and a bigoted outlook on a group of people you have labelled below you. An illogical hatred.

So to me the only reason why your beliefs do not make you a racist pig is because Londoners are not a race. You can try to dress your comments up as banter but that won’t wash.

Hey blupblup! Nice to catch up

Originally posted by blupblup
When you're subjected to the kind of disgusting crap that spewed from that nasty racist idiot's mouth, you probably just want to hurl back nasty stuff.

We STILL don't know what took place before the filming began. To me (and everyone I've spoken to about it) it's quite obvious that the documentation began part way into the altercation. Therefore is it not highly plausible that Emma West was herself retorting too? Does that make what she did acceptable? No! Much like what the black woman said was not acceptable.

Originally posted by blupblup
And you think "we only come over because you're too lazy to work" is "the most racist thing in that video"

Absolutely! I've just re-read a transcript of the incident and I stand by that. But, then again, it comes down to how we define 'racism' (as it often does). To me, hating someone or judging their character based on their colour is racism. Telling someone who is obviously not white that they're not English (aka the truth) and that they should go to their country of origin and improve it - though insensitive and rude - is not what I and many others would strictly define as racism. Though I will say that if I were to guess at her thinking, she probably did have as much racist intent behind her words as the black woman who retorted.

Originally posted by blupblup
In your eyes that racist tool did nothing wrong?

Did I say that? She did a LOT wrong. She was unnecessarily rude and presumptuous - presumptuous as to the ancestral origins of the people around her and presumptuous that they didn't work for a living. She also swore a lot (which, incidentally, is why so many people assume what she said was hateful - because it was peppered with the F word).

In short, the tram video uncovers a myriad of deeper issues which need to be discussed:
- Who's definition of 'racism' do we use?
- Why are people feeling like this about immigrants?
- What can be done to harmonise society, if anything?
- Should someone be prosecuted for words - however rude?
- What is ethnic identity?
- Do the English have a right to theirs?
- Why isn't racism prosecuted when against white people?
- Does England want to be multicultural?
- Do the people get to choose?
- Will dissent be tolerated?

reply to post by Cythraul


I believe you have missed something on the list.

'Let he without sin throw the first stone'. There are a lot of stone throwers on this subject.

The thread about the young girl being stoned to death by 'evil' muslims. It seems we have a Westernised version of that very act with the way Emma is being hounded, demonised and calls from beatings to killing shows we actually differ very little in our views and the only difference is we do the stoning by proxy.

Originally posted by blupblup
And you think "we only come over because you're too lazy to work" is "the most racist thing in that video"

Absolutely! I've just re-read a transcript of the incident and I stand by that.



WHAT you think that saying "we come over here because your too lazy to work" is more racist than " # off back to 'n-word' africa" or " you cant be british your black "

hmmmmm yeah your right NOT

reply to post by colin42

Superb point Colin! But for me it goes to highlight how some deem it permissible that some crimes be be punished with a ferocity that is an exception to our general, national standard of tolerance and peace. Racism - as defined and decreed by the State - shall not be dealt with in the same tempered, considered manner as all other crimes. The executive order has come down: what the State and its useful idiots perceive as 'racism' shall permit a temporary abandonment of all decency and justice.

Yet... there are plenty of things more harmful to society than casual, racist speech: treachery, warmongering, murder, deception, rape, benefit-cheating. And then there are things which individuals may find more offensive. Personally I'll take a verbal racist over an adulterer any day. Yet no-one calls for the blood of the thousands of adulterers, cheats, rapists and traitors reported in our news.

By the way, let me extend my sympathies to your friends the West family. Please tell them that gold-hearted patriots are making preparations to support Emma on Friday. I know she probably doesn't consider herself a nationalist, but tell her not to shun the support of the nationalists who want to look out for her. They are not racist - anymore than she is.

Originally posted by theruthlessone
WHAT you think that saying "we come over here because your too lazy to work" is more racist than " # off back to 'n-word' africa" or " you cant be british your black "

hmmmmm yeah your right NOT

Where did she say the 'N' word?

FYI Black people can be British (a political label) but not English (an ethnic label). So she was partly wrong when she said that. And there's nothing racist about the truth.

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by theruthlessone
WHAT you think that saying "we come over here because your too lazy to work" is more racist than " # off back to 'n-word' africa" or " you cant be british your black "

hmmmmm yeah your right NOT

Where did she say the 'N' word?

FYI Black people can be British (a political label) but not English (an ethnic label). So she was partly wrong when she said that. And there's nothing racist about the truth.

well i suggest you re watch the video have a good proper listen

right so because i have black in me i cant be english then this is what your saying erm but genetic wise there is not one person in england ( white ) who will be 100% english only do the test yourself if you think you are

Im english pal whether you like it or not and nothing you can ever say will change that im english through and through why because i was born here my parents was born here my children was born here

so i tell you what you keep your racist point of view and class me as non english and thats the TRUTH i am english

Originally posted by ollncasino

Sorry, I missunderstood you when you wrote

Originally posted by blupblup
She was provoked and was being racially abused so she fought back using the same tactics.

Indeed you did misunderstand me.... I meant the same tactics... Provocation

In what sense is it xenophobia and not racist to call white people too lazy to work?
If I said Black people were too lazy to work, would that only be xenophobia and not racism?

She didn't mention the woman's race.... British people are not "only" white you know.... I know in your little mind they are, the only "pure" Brits are white... but in reality British people are made up of every race and colour.

And yes you would be racist if you said black people were too lazy to work, much like it would also be racist to say white people were lazy.

But as this didn't happen, then you're obviously just talking nonsense.


Cheers

Originally posted by Cythraul
reply to post by colin42

 

By the way, let me extend my sympathies to your friends the West family. Please tell them that gold-hearted patriots are making preparations to support Emma on Friday. I know she probably doesn't consider herself a nationalist, but tell her not to shun the support of the nationalists who want to look out for her. They are not racist - anymore than she is.

Ha and who are these Nationalists then B.N.P, english defence league...........? i knew it wouldnt take long for these wankers to jump on this particular bandwagon pricks the lot of them

reply to post by colin42


I am a Mental Health Professional and classed as a CPN, which means Community Psychiatric Nurse and work closely alongside people with Mental Illnesses as well as Psychiatrists.

I have read your thread with interest. What I find doubtful however, is that you state that this woman had visited her Psychiatrist for an appointment and took along her child. Mental Health Professionals would not agree to an appointment where a child was present and this is for varying reasons. It is not deemed as appropriate for a child to be present in such a formal environment such as a mental health assessments, unless they were within their own home.

Does this young lady have a formal diagnosis for her 'in balance' as you put it? I would be interested to hear your response. If this young lady does have mental health problems then it is very sad, however, mental illness cannot be used as a shield to hide behind when wrong is done. It is only highly floridly psychotic and delusional people that are not aware of what they are doing or saying. If the young lady in question was so, then I highly doubt that her Psychiatrist would have been happy to let her leave alone, let alone with her young son. From a professional point of view from watching the clip in the video, this woman seems to have mental capacity and is in control of what she is saying and doing.

Originally posted by Cythraul
Hey blupblup! Nice to catch up

We STILL don't know what took place before the filming began. To me (and everyone I've spoken to about it) it's quite obvious that the documentation began part way into the altercation. Therefore is it not highly plausible that Emma West was herself retorting too? Does that make what she did acceptable? No! Much like what the black woman said was not acceptable.

And I totally agree, we do not know what happened before.
It's pretty obvious though, IMO, that the racist woman is on something... I don't think many will dispute that, what she is on is unclear, could be alcohol, could be prescription psychotic drugs... could be class-a's could be anything, but she is slurring, has odd facial expressions and so on.

Anything could have triggered her reaction, we don't know.



And as I said to the other member... provocation is a powerful thing... if you're subjected to that kind of tirade, it would take a brave and grounded person to not react with equally vile insults, although the black lady offered one insult about the British being lazy which is why many immigrants come over here.

I'm not going to get into that discussion as it's an entirely different one.

Absolutely! I've just re-read a transcript of the incident and I stand by that. But, then again, it comes down to how we define 'racism' (as it often does).

Well the Black woman didn't say anything racist and the Racist woman was clearly pointing out that anyone who is not white cannot be British... again, this is not the case.
She also goes to say "Go back to some N*gger country" and changes it to "N*ggeragua"

She doesn't quite go the whole hog but the intent was there.

There was one racist woman in the video clip that we see.... (here's a clue, she wasn't black)

To me, hating someone or judging their character based on their colour is racism. Telling someone who is obviously not white that they're not English (aka the truth)

Well It's not only the wording or language used, it's the vitriol, it's the intent... it's many different things.
I don't think many objective people can watch that video and say that the woman isn't a racist.
Secondly, White people are not the only English people... I don't get your reasoning?

So someone cannot be English and Black? Or English and Asian?

Explain please...




I'm not going to answer all of your points listed, it will take forever, however if there is a specific one you would like answered, that I haven't below, please ask.

In short, the tram video uncovers a myriad of deeper issues which need to be discussed:
- Who's definition of 'racism' do we use?

I posted the independent article in the thread I made and I found it an interesting read.

www.independent.co.uk...

As for the definition of racist...

I'd say the good old standard

"hatred or intolerance of another race or other races"

Which is pretty much on show for the whole of that video.

- Why are people feeling like this about immigrants?

Because times are hard, everyone is feeling the pinch, people are losing their jobs, their homes, nobody know what's around the corner and as many studies have shown, when people are feeling like this they lash out... they lash out at those who are different, they need someone to blame.

When the only people to blame are the government.

They set the immigration policy, they signed up to the EU open door policy.... they give handouts and benefits to people and so on... I could go on.

Point is..

BLAME THE GOVERNMENT

To blame the actual people who are here... is just insane.

- What can be done to harmonise society, if anything?

Education, understanding, tolerance.

Equality in all area of government policy.

Many things.

- Should someone be prosecuted for words - however rude?

Yes

Free speech stops when hate speech starts.

You do not have the right to abuse someone based on racial, ethnic, or sexual prejudices.

In a civilised society, this is an absolute necessity.

Nobody wants to stifle legitimate discussions on immigration or any other issues, but you don't have legitimate discussions and civil debates and discussions by speaking the way that idiot did in the video.

I'm inclined to believe the OP although ultimatly weather he's telling the truth or not is irrelevent to the point he's making.

We no nothing about this women, her life, her mental health. All we have are a few minutes of footage to base all our opinions and assumptions off of.

Even if I was to assume that she was drug free and of a sound mind during the rant she most certainly doesnt deserve death threats or the level of hatred directed at her!

reply to post by iHaveAwoken

Maybe your good at your job but I've seen plenty of bungles by mental health proffesionals before.

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by Cythraul

To me, hating someone or judging their character based on their colour is racism. Telling someone who is obviously not white that they're not English (aka the truth)

Well It's not only the wording or language used, it's the vitriol, it's the intent... it's many different things.
I don't think many objective people can watch that video and say that the woman isn't a racist.
Secondly, White people are not the only English people... I don't get your reasoning?

So someone cannot be English and Black? Or English and Asian?

Explain please...

edit on 22/9/2011 by theruthlessone because: (no reason given)

Well i have read through a few of this posters threads he's an EDL member so to answer your question no according to the poster only white people are english i just wish they got themselves geneticly tested and find out where they are from

edit on 22/9/2011 by theruthlessone because: (no reason given)

reply to post by monkofmimir


I totally agree! Death threats aimed towards her are disgusting ! I do not and did not state that this woman deserves what is happening to her in terms of any threats she is receiving. What I am interested in is her mental state and mental capacity. Colin states that this is the reason why incident happened. From a professional point of view it stirred my curiosity, hence my reply to his post.

I will again state though that you cannot use mental health issues as a shield to avert yourself from total blame when you have wronged.

Originally posted by theruthlessone
so i tell you what you keep your racist point of view and class me as non english and thats the TRUTH i am english

It's not the truth! You may be part-English. However, English (from 'Anglisc', after one of the white Germanic tribes who founded England) is an ethnic term and an ethnic identity. I don't see why anyone who is not ethnically northern/western European would want to call themselves 'English'. That'd be like me calling myself 'Navajo'. Call yourself British - and be proud of it, or part-English, but do NOT try to undermine an entire ethnic group's identity (which is actually illegal under Universal law) by claiming to belong to an ethnic identity to a degree which is false.

PS I am not EDL or BNP, never have been. I despise both groups (though used to sympathise at times). The former is a Zionist operation, the latter an incompetent organisation at best - state-sponsored safety-valve at worst.

reply to post by Cythraul


Im english pal born and bred simple

Originally posted by theruthlessone

Well i have read through a few of this posters threads he's an EDL member so to answer your question no according to the poster only white people are english i just wish they got themselves geneticly tested and find out where they are from

Oh they were merely rhetorical questions...I know where most of our more... how should I say.... er...Nationalistically passionate... members stand on the question of racial and national identity.
It's merely a back and forth that goes nowhere, we each exchange some "blows" and we all end up exactly where we started.

If someone has the kind of mindset that the woman in this video and members of the BNP and EDL have, then there isn't a lot of reasoning with them to be honest, then again, there isn't a lot going to sway me from my love of other cultures and races and my pride at having such a diverse and multicultural country.

So it's all good.

Anyway, Question Time is just starting, will check back later.

Originally posted by Cythraul

Originally posted by theruthlessone
so i tell you what you keep your racist point of view and class me as non english and thats the TRUTH i am english

PS I am not EDL or BNP, never have been. I despise both groups (though used to sympathise at times). The former is a Zionist operation, the latter an incompetent organisation at best - state-sponsored safety-valve at worst.

Comment from: parrallel on: 22/9/2011 @ 19:08
Keep up the good work on the EDL thread matey! I cant even be bothered to justify myself to those idiots who disagree with the EDL etc! Have had 2 warnings today from mods so im gona skip posting that thread and just watch you take no prisoners lol

I got this off your comments section on your page yes sounds like you dont agree with the EDL

DP