How much longer can the Non-Violent Approach be used?

reply to post by neo96


Ahhh I see

Nevermind. I asked a silly question so I guess I deserved a silly answer lol

Originally posted by Thutmose
They're professional agitators. They're dirty, they're violent, they're greedy, they're stupid, and now they're jonesing for violence.

That's a better description of the US government than it is of OWS.

And the non-violent approach will continue way beyond our lifetimes. Eons even. Violence is only appropriate when the US government- and local police- deems it so for its own agenda. Anyone who DARES even go there is cast out as a pariah, and enemy of the state.

Which is why the whole US government ought to be tossed out instead. THEY ARE THE ENEMY.

But yeah, what needs to happen is the second American armed revolution. You can say no no no, but you are only putting off the inevitable. No amount of non-violent protest is going to stop these warmongers. Why would it? They are warmongers! They only respond to violence, power, and monetary gain. They see all these protests and say haha, look at the idiots. We don't give a flying ****.

They will only give it when a million guns descend upon them. But by then it will be way too late.

I've wondered this myself for awhile.

The thing is, if they can't establish any kind of real leadership and agree on a common goal then they won't accomplish anything no matter how they choose to go about it.

reply to post by jude11

Not really wanting to discuss the why of the protests, the question is "How long can the Non-Violent" approach be the tool used to get a message across? The reason I ask is that it must be clear to more people that this approach WILL NOT accomplish anything.

Generally speaking, no. Peaceful protests accomplish very little to nothing.

Sticking with this mindset - the only way of accomplishing anything is through violent protest - also known as a military dictatorship.

Sit in a park, the police come along and tell you to move. You stay put and get gassed, corralled and assaulted with rubber bullets and batons. Then...off to the holding cell.

Because, you know, communities do not have the right to establish a law saying that parks are closed after a given time.... and it's absolutely critical that you camp in a park overnight.

Around here, the police don't have access to such fancy things. They have 'tazers' and good old-fashioned take-down procedures that are pretty much guaranteed to dislocate joints and break bones.

There's something called discretion. Even if you feel an officer is in the complete wrong... pick your battles wisely.

What was accomplished? Absolutely nothing. Did you win? Did TPTB listen? Did they get the message? Did things change? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding NO.

What did OWS do to ... you know... actually implement change?

Democratic election of representatives to a republic doesn't really incorporate "bunch of people sleeping in park" into its legislative process.

The only answer I can see is to meet fire with fire. Sorry to say but that's the only language TPTB understand. As it is, we see them drinking champagne from buildings, dropping fliers of scorn and ridicule, using police to assault us and do their bidding and basically going on about their daily lives with absolutely no one making them accountable.

So, while you claim you are against the "1%" - it's really anyone who has money and/or has expressed a differing opinion or dislike for the OWS crowd.



I find the context of the song highly ironic compared to its current application (especially considering the album title).

Will the Govt. do anything to the bankers while a protest goes on peacefully? Guess again. Will the leaders turn around and tell Wall Street to get their $hit together and stop stealing from the citizens? Nope. Will there suddenly be a new and refreshing level of justice, fair play, equality and openness from the Govt? Absolutely not.

Have you even bothered to understand the source of the problems?

It stems from government regulation and the attempts of various special interest groups to use the government to control businesses and individuals. This has led to businesses being able to purchase, through lobbying effort, legislation that regulates competition out of the market as well as secure contracts for government work.

Self-righteous greed - but in a context you are not familiar with. It is the belief that one person knows how to better live than another, and is justified in writing legislation to make people live the way one wants them to.

In a nutshell, that concept has led to the entire set of problems we have.

So - when the OWS crowd goes around, focusing on what other people have, and deciding that it is wrong for them to live a rich and lavish lifestyle... I can't help but associate them with the very cause for the problems we are experiencing today.... and my instinctive response to OWSers who want to resort to violence is simple: "En Guarde"

You don't stand a snowball's chance in hell. But killing people isn't a sport. It's an industry where efficiency is vital.

Don't misunderstand my post here. In no way do I advocate violence as an answer and will stand opposed to it for as long as possible. But how much longer can that be for you, me, us?

Please.

You're lying to yourself, and it's quite disgusting. You've already stated that you do not feel a peaceful protest will bring the result you want, and have stated that violence is the only foreseeable way to get the results you want (it won't work, by the way - because you seem to believe the OWS crowd is about a thousand times larger than it actually is - and that OWS actually represents the views of the masses - both arrogant and ignorant beliefs).

You are merely trying to rationalize the desperation you feel and the blood-lust it has triggered within you. You are a predator - like any other human being. It's what makes domesticated humans dangerous - the ignorance of their own instincts.

Since it appears to be getting more tense by the day, whether it's police violence, protester violence, or groups like black bloc causing violence, something of larger scale seems almost inevitable.

Hope for the best.. prepare for the worst. That's about the best one can do.

reply to post by illuminatislave

You are being blatantly disingenuous at this point if you are still saying that people have no idea what they're protesting over. Just stop it.

Protesting over and picketing for are two completely different things.

Protesting is "I don't like."

Picketing for is "I support."

I am against the way the Federal Reserve, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, and the FHA have totally sodomized the dollar and concept of private stock. I am against many of the actions Congress has taken, lately.

I am for getting rid of social security, income security, and medicare/medicaid, and any other welfare program funded and/or organized at the national level by any federal institution, act, or office.

You'll find about half of the OWS crowd will vehemently disagree with me on that point.

I am for placing a page-cap on bills. No bill shall be passed over five pages long. Funding requests can be handled separately and are subject to line-item vetoes. No state shall be loaned money from the federal government in any way, shape, or form unless it is repaid.

I am for a return to a silver/gold backed currency and dissolving the Federal Reserve, FDIC, and creating an ammendment that specifically forbids government-enterprises like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac from existing ever again (and authorizes the CIA to execute any representative suggesting it. . . seriously - it will never be a good idea, just like looking down the barrel of a gun is never a good idea.... I'm being a little extreme, I know - but I'm passionate about that one).

You'll find that I don't hold the banks criminally liable nearly to the extent as I hold our political system and fiat currency hinged on mortgage-backed-securities liable. I don't care about the 1% or what they have. I care about doing what is necessary to prevent the same issues from happening again and that empower the rest of us to create businesses and private practices that produce goods and services people are willing to buy.

I, honestly, don't care if every individual in a bank who committed fraud is brought to trial or not. I don't care if someone is eating Surf&Turf while my stomach is grumbling about being empty.

This fixation on what others are/have/do is going to be our own undoing.

i think they are expecting us to be peaceful. remember we are the 95% we outnumber...in reality, its been violent always. we start wars and fight them this is a war, it has to be to stop ww3.

Maintain course, heading and direction for as long as it takes. Show that they can toss the kitchen sink at us and have us not be phased in the least bit by this action.

They are trying to find our collective "button" that makes us tick and have for the most part been unsuccessful in finding it which is a damn good thing. Brush off each and every encounter with law enforcement like if it never happened and that will make them scratch their heads driving them all eventually insane trying to rack their skulls thinking to themselves over and over "What makes them tick?" and the answer is nothing. Let nothing phase us!

All apart of something called "Psychological Warfare" to get into your opponents head in order to drive them insane trying to figure out what makes us tick. This is a forceplay of sorts whereas an intention is to force them to either show their hand or make a play prematurely that exposes them directly.

Welcome to the new paradigm!

Seriously? I guess I need to give thanks for being one of those few Americans that thinks this country is still the best place to live in this world. I've lived in other countries and each one has their problems.

Those of you who think violence is going to get your point across our in my opinion lacking.... Stop playing WOW or MW3 and get out and be social, find something beyond the keyboard.

Let's review my day..

Woke up went to work..Talked with venders, retailers and manufacturers from around the world. Ate dinner, helped kids with homework, went to my local hobby shop for a couple hours. Came back home put kids to bed, did some more work. About 11 I realized Skyrim was releasing at 12 and I thought i''d surprise my by with it in the morning. Drove to gamestop, paid for game and than stood in line with 200 other people waiting for our copy.

No cops drove by, No one got in fights and everyone seemed pretty positive. Now let's flashback to a couple nights ago when MW3 came out.

Typical workday but instead when we went to pick up the ame their were over 500 people outside the store. That was just our little store. Guess what, No Cops, No Trouble and people had the money to spend on a game and a DLC pack.

WoW 500 people and standing outside a plaza at mid-night and no trouble.... Hmmmm maybe it was luck or maybe it was because no one was being an Azz.

OWS isn't going to change America because the majority of Americans are working and the responsible ones like me read the huge warning signs years ago and got rid of their credit cards and unnecessary debt.

People can afford a $70 game or a $400 phone but they can't afford to put food on the table? It's not the economy it's the lack of responsibility. Three Million people were playing MW3 within 24 hours of release in the USA. That's your 1%

Sorry for the vent but I'm just not seeing the America you are seeing.

Edit: on IPad, not the best way to type and edit sorry.

If this continues at college campuses, there will be violent action taken.

It's not a debate, Men don't let cowards beat peaceful grown women and let them get away with it. This fact will be demonstrated.

If these cops aren't fired, protest won't stop. If this is deemed acceptable behavior and beatings continue, cops are gonna be the ones who start getting beat up.

The world is ours, never forget it.

The longer it remains non violent the more difficult it will be to fight back in the future.

Originally posted by Toolatetotalk
Seriously? I guess I need to give thanks for being one of those few Americans that thinks this country is still the best place to live in this world. I've lived in other countries and each one has their problems.

Those of you who think violence is going to get your point across our in my opinion lacking.... Stop playing WOW or MW3 and get out and be social, find something beyond the keyboard.

Let's review my day..

Woke up went to work..Talked with venders, retailers and manufacturers from around the world. Ate dinner, helped kids with homework, went to my local hobby shop for a couple hours. Came back home put kids to bed, did some more work. About 11 I realized Skyrim was releasing at 12 and I thought i''d surprise my by with it in the morning. Drove to gamestop, paid for game and than stood in line with 200 other people waiting for our copy.

No cops drove by, No one got in fights and everyone seemed pretty positive. Now let's flashback to a couple nights ago when MW3 came out.

Typical workday but instead when we went to pick up the ame their were over 500 people outside the store. That was just our little store. Guess what, No Cops, No Trouble and people had the money to spend on a game and a DLC pack.

WoW 500 people and standing outside a plaza at mid-night and no trouble.... Hmmmm maybe it was luck or maybe it was because no one was being an Azz.

OWS isn't going to change America because the majority of Americans are working and the responsible ones like me read the huge warning signs years ago and got rid of their credit cards and unnecessary debt.

People can afford a $70 game or a $400 phone but they can't afford to put food on the table? It's not the economy it's the lack of responsibility. Three Million people were playing MW3 within 24 hours of release in the USA. That's your 1%

Sorry for the vent but I'm just not seeing the America you are seeing.

Edit: on IPad, not the best way to type and edit sorry.

edit on 11-11-2011 by Toolatetotalk because: Made. Note on why such poor grammar.

The people playing those video games (especially at my school that has a video game programing major) and the kids buying those phones, are the college kids getting an education so these things can be produced. Do you blame them for enjoying the wealth of our nation? If you do blame them, I want to know what the hell I'm going to school and working for if it isn't to reap what we sew.

reply to post by TheMindWar


Read my post like 3 above yours and learn! Violence has not been completely taken off the table but is a backburner item currently!

I think you have to accept, when considering this subject, that peaceful protest sits well in a nation state where you are part of the democratic process. Non violence even works when you're entirely excluded, as was Gandhi in British India. Now there was one man who humbled an empire.

But there's a huge difference between that and the world in which most of us now live.

We go through the pretence of elections in our countries but there's not one of us in command of our own destiny, such is the lack of democratic accountability in the global capitalist model. The power which drives our world today is beyond democracy, it accounts to no-one. Multinationals aren't accountable to the people they employ nor to those nations in which they're located. These companies are more powerful than the nation state, they operate as if they're the 21st Century colonial powers.

Of the people, by the people, for the people has been supplanted by corporate management. We once controlled the economy in the interests of the people. Now that economy controls us, it dictates our daily lives. Third World nations toiling under the yolk of colonial rule until the 1950's had that system, in the main, replaced by cruel dictators. Now we see that fall away, to be replaced by the equally oppressive global model. No emerging democracies for them. These people don't even know what they've never had, at least that's their excuse. What the heck is ours ?

Globalism is top down, unelected & entirely unaccountable. It's the Man from Delmonte who says No ... and the whole village starves to death when they shift production elsewhere. And you keep that Man sweet by doing whatever he wants, jettisoning your principles, sacrificing those things for which your own parents & grandparents fought and died for and, well, selling your soul to the devil in the process.

Of violence, I'm against and always will be. I'll always encourage others to walk the peaceful path. But so oppressed is our world under this wicked economic model that I refuse to condemn those who take up arms against it.

reply to post by jude11


I saw remarkable restraint on the part of Police when students rioted and turned over a TV News van.

If they can show such complete and utter patience toward vandals out to seek and destroy - I think our Police should exercise at least the same restraint when dealing with peaceful citizens assembled as a show of their first amendment rights to protest.

Alice: This is impossible.
The Mad Hatter: Only if you believe it is...

I was actually thinking about this this morning when I learned that they were trying to evict Occupy Cork. They've been asked to move on, refused and now may be facing fines and court action. I support them and hope they achieve their aims for the betterment of us all, however, I just don't see it making any bit of a difference at all.

reply to post by jude11


There's definitely something to be said for non-violent means of protest. The trick is to get enough people to build a credible threat to warrant the change you want. That's the thing.

If you work directly for the power that be, as a police chief per se. By agreeing with the people you will lose your job/career, your money, and maybe even have your family threatened.

At the same time, as you are doing your job and contemplating this.....some protestor hits your best friend on the police force with a large brick or firebomb, you're not going to think twice about assaulting more protestors, and you're better equipped.

As a protestor, how do you get this police chief on your side? You convince him that your side is A: right, and B, more importantly: inevitably going to win. If you fight against him in combat, neither will occur.

The only way is to convince them you have the force of millions behind you, who will stop paying taxes, stop selling to him, stop protesting etc.

As you've obviously looked at the history of protests in the US, fighting against the power in open combat has NEVER worked, the only thing that beats the powers in this capitalistic country is MONEY. You have to make changes by voting with your money and social credentials. IF you don't have money, you still have influence upon those who HAVE money. Violence can only be used as a secondary act, and it's only going to be an annoyance to TPTB,

Think Gandhi here, he fought the British and got change through non-violent means.

Originally posted by seagull
That's the question, isn't it?

At what point does attempting to redress the issues peaceably become an exercise in futility? I don't know. I do know that that point hasn't been reached yet.

Those of you who may think that the point has been reached that we must resort to violence to get the change necessary must realize that an armed insurrection/revolution isn't something that'll last a couple of days...and everything will be better... It'll last years. Hundreds, if not thousands, maybe more, will die...many times that will be homeless. Infrastructure will be destroyed. All with no guarantee that the "winners" will be any better than what came before. The winners will be the one's with the most guns.

Change, to be worthwhile, must come peacefully if at all possible. That means, as I've said on ATS many, many times, that doing all those things that some herein think a worthless exercise. Voting. Writing letters/emails. Running as a candidate, or supporting one, that supports the change necessary. Then watching over that candidate once he, or she, is in office. ...and replacing said candidate if she, or he, fails to live up to the promises they make.

It all requires work. If we aren't willing to do the work peacefully, what point an armed rebellion that won't solve the problem we're to scared to solve peacefully?

Exactly! Africa is a prime example of why we should avoid violence as an option. They've been at war forever for the same reasons, and the rebels usually become just as corrupt as the people they overthrow.

Violence can be the answer some times. Just my thoughts.

reply to post by WarJohn

Violence can be the answer some times. Just my thoughts.

Violence is never an answer. It is a means.

And this is where people don't get it. The Militias have the resources and capability to decapitate the National government, and many of the states in which they reside. They have enough pull with the armed forces to plausibly throw a hell of a valiant attempt at a largely successful coupe.

The problem is the end-game. It always is.

Removing people from power is an infinitely simple task by comparison to establishing rule of law.

Once you set the precedent that you simply kill people you feel you cannot work with... what happens when people realize the person they stood next to in order to 'end the dictatorship' is of a view that is seen as unworkable?

And that is why those of us who think before we act are not so quick to choose violence.

It's easy to start killing people. It's much more difficult to stop. If I kill someone in the room for disagreeing with me, and you also disagree with me... what are you going to do? Survive - you're going to treat me as someone you need to kill before I kill you. Even if I want to return to peaceful talks - I am going to be met with that mentality - which can only be answered with a similar survivalist approach.

That is why, once the precedent for violence is set, it is so difficult to stop.

People don't have an answer, but are willing to use violence as a means of enforcing their will.

It's an inverted process of our current governmental system - which is to develop an answer before making any attempt to use violence to enforce that answer.

Sit OWS down and have them come up with an answer, and they will find that there are about two or three major camps of thought within their midst - all of which are rather exclusive to the others. If they choose to use violence to enforce the removal of the current system, they will soon find themselves at odds as they attempt to enact the change they envisioned.

And before we know it - we find ourselves -literally- fighting as socialists, constitutionalists, etc.

Which, to me, seems like a waste of time and resources to establish what we already know: we don't want to live under incompatible economic/political policies.