A question to Christians...

It's a bit funny (in a sad way) how people can look at the picture I posted above, then sit here in there nicely furnished houses on their personal computers on the internet, probably eat enough tonight to feed two people before retiring to watch some TV, drive to a well furnished church filled with expensive crucifixes and pews wearing the nicest and most expensive clothes they have this Sunday, donate money so that the church can buy even more expensive crucifixes and furniture...

And then tell me it's *my* fault for not believing in God that these children are starving to death, all while having the insensitivity to compare a starving child's death to their probably all too familiar feeling of being a spoiled child not getting a toy they want from their parents.

reply to post by Nosred


No one is telling you its "your fault" for your rebellion against God. You have been given free will just like Satan and his angels had and that is your choice to be able to rebel, as long as you are prepared to pay the consequences for siding with evil. Salvation through Jesus Christ is a free gift of course you don't have to take the gift but in man-kinds current circumstances it is an unwise decision to turn that offer down.

reply to post by Nosred
Just so we're clear, I don't blame you for anything. I understand the world's a hard place to deal with (leaves me in the doldrums quire regularly, actually), and there have been quite a LOT of terrible examples of all sorts set by "christians" and sundry other believers all throughout history (as foretold, to be entirely honest...).

That said, some of your assumptions may be fair in some cases, but not in all. Remember, there are believers (as well as non-believers, assuredly) out there who also live humble lives, try not to participate in the wasteful distractions of the world, give of their time/money/blood as they're able, and do the best they can to help those around them and the world in general, while trying to stop the insanity.

Take care.

reply to post by Nosred


If this is really such an issue for you, then I have to ask you some questions

First of all, instead of sitting there blaming God and Christians for letting children starve, why don't you get involved in doing something about it? Are you sending money to missionaries and other organizations who actually try to help these children (yes, I realize that there are some that just scam)? Are you volunteering at soup kitchens and churches (or even secular organizations) that feed the hungry? and lastly, if you are so concerned with it, why dont you ask God yourself? Seriously. I really don't think that your concern for those children is sincere. I think you are doing this to start an argument and see how much trouble you can cause. If you were really concerned about their well being, you would NOT be here griping about it on ATS.

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Nosred
Actually, you might want to research that a bit further before saying such things. Testicular cancer was historically unknown until accounts of afflicted chimneysweeps appeared. Cancer rates have been increasing by ridiculous amounts for some time - all indications are that, yes, we actually DO tend to contribute to and quite possibly indirectly 'create' cancer by our habits and introducing novel factors into our environments.

There are records of cancer affecting humans from Ancient Egypt, you only make yourself look ignorant by saying it's somehow my fault that small children in Africa (where they don't have chimneys) are dying of cancer.

Regardless - why would you also say cancer is incurable? DCA, Gerson therapy, commonly-accepted treatments, lifestyle changes, and a host of things we have yet to uncover or get to the truth of lie out there - instead of focusing so much on war, self-centeredness, accumulation of wealth, hedonism, and the rest of our idiocies we misdirect ourselves with, we should motivate humanity on the whole to focus on fixing these issues and their root causes, and perhaps cancer wouldn't be an issue anyway.

... you say that now, but as I pointed out cancer has been affecting humans for all of recorded history. A loving god is okay with small children dying of a disease thousands of years away from even being *identified*, let alone having a cure developed?

That said, as you've shifted gears from the starving to cancer, I'll shift gears accordingly - our world also functions according to natural cycles and processes that unfortunately do not always come out well for those in such systems. This does not change the fact that I already pointed out, that being that WE ALL DIE ANYWAY. This world is ultimately of no effect, and there is no justification for God to step in against these natural processes and sugar coat everything to make life happy and cozy for no reason.

First of all: That is incredibly insensitive. You are calling a small child's suffering and death a non-issue, and you should be ashamed of yourself for it.

Second of all: Your Bible says that these children are doomed to eternal suffering after their death. Why would a benevolent god allow this?

There was no promise to do so. This life is a testing ground, and unfortunately bad things happen to good people - even to myself at times. Do I blame god for this? No.

Again, this is a rather insensitive statement. You are talking about the suffering and death of a small child as if it was the same as locking your keys in your car.

To conversely address your questions - how is god responsible for man polluting his environment with rocket fuel components, poor nutrition, dirty air, or any of the other multitude of things that contribute to degenerative, chronic, and other diseases that afflict mankind? Address our fault first, and you address the vast majority of cases, if not effectively all of them.

How is man responsible for children dying of incurable diseases thousands of years before pollution, rocket fuel components, and other modern technology even exist? How is man responsible for the starvation of a child on an island that has no contact with the outside world?

Regardless, as I'm sure others have addressed, as a result of our rebellion (ongoing), this world is no longer a garden of purity and peace for us. Complain all you want, but ultimately the fault lies with us at the root of it all.

Why is a benevolent god okay with people being punished for the sins of others? I find it rather alarming that I seem to be the only one who finds the idea of sacrificing the innocent as punishment for the misdeeds of the sinful horrifying and barbaric.

Originally posted by RevelationGeneration
reply to post by Nosred

 

No one is telling you its "your fault" for your rebellion against God. You have been given free will just like Satan and his angels had and that is your choice to be able to rebel, as long as you are prepared to pay the consequences for siding with evil. Salvation through Jesus Christ is a free gift of course you don't have to take the gift but in man-kinds current circumstances it is an unwise decision to turn that offer down.

Forgive me for not being okay with the concept that a small child might be dying of cancer right now as a result of *me* not believing in one *specific* god out of millions of possible choices.

Edit: The fact that Christians can believe in a god who accepts this as "righteous" is rather scary to me.

Originally posted by Veritas1
reply to post by Nosred

 

First of all, instead of sitting there blaming God and Christians for letting children starve, why don't you get involved in doing something about it?

I'm not blaming anyone. I asked how anyone can believe in a benevolent and omnipotent god that thinks this is "righteous", then worship that god.

I find it much less horrifying to either believe in no god, or believe in a god who isn't omnipotent and wants to help but can't. A "benevolent" god who thinks children starving is righteous is not benevolent.

reply to post by Nosred
1) I did also address natural cases and various other maladies that occur, as well as root cause (fallen world).

2) Already addressed, death is the natural end of life here, the fallen state of this world is a result of sin, and god never promised to ease all suffering in this life until all things are fulfilled and restoration of the world to its intended state is made.

3) No insensitivity is intended - I've already stated we should stop with stupid and pointless distractions and do what WE can do to make the world a better place. Regardless, it's also a fact that we all die, eventually this planet will be consumed by the sun, and the universe will suffer a heat death and end. What do you want me to say? In the long run, EVERYTHING in this life means essentially nil.

4) You should quote that verse of the bible for me instead of relying on what some knuckleheads may have spouted. The bible teaches that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and that children are the perfect example of those who will inherit the kingdom.

5) Again, death is natural AND inevitable, as is suffering. Perhaps instead of kicking against the goads here poking sticks at christians, you should get out and start working on doing something to help? I don't see your arguments here doing much good for you, I, or them.

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Nosred
4) You should quote that verse of the bible for me instead of relying on what some knuckleheads may have spouted. The bible teaches that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and that children are the perfect example of those who will inherit the kingdom.

I already posted it, earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Nosred

 

1) I did also address natural cases and various other maladies that occur, as well as root cause (fallen world).

How about cancer caused by hormonal issues? Wouldn't that be god's fault, if there was one?

Why would a benevolent god even allow a small child who will die within the first year of his life to even be born? Let alone punish that child for the rest of eternity?

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Nosred
4) You should quote that verse of the bible for me instead of relying on what some knuckleheads may have spouted. The bible teaches that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and that children are the perfect example of those who will inherit the kingdom.

I already posted it, earlier in this thread.

If you're talking about Job 3.16-17, then you're taking it out of context. First off, it's Job whining about his life, not god or anyone speaking truths about reality:

11 “Why did I not die at birth?
Why did I not perish when I came from the womb?

12 Why did the knees receive me?
Or why the breasts, that I should nurse?

13 For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest

14 With kings and counselors of the earth,
Who built ruins for themselves,

15 Or with princes who had gold,
Who filled their houses with silver;

16 Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child,
Like infants who never saw light?

17 There the wicked cease from troubling,
And there the weary are at rest.

Secondly, it doesn't say anything about heaven OR hell, it's talking about death. There is no heaven or hell for anyone until the resurrection and judgement...and even then, contrary to what most christians believe (and apparently ignore about the bible), only the 'saved' receive the gift of eternal life - as I mentioned earlier, this would seem to include innocents - and the rest are allotted to the second death (not the "first eternal suffering fiery torment").

So, unless I'm missing something, I'll need clarification on god sending babies to hell.

Everyone dies, bro. Small children fortunately don't have to deal with all the bull# of life before it happens. Consider it a blessing.

Praetorius I would not waste any-more time with this guy, he's an atheist and a troll that's already rejected the gospel and Christ's offer of salvation. He chooses death over eternal life that is his choice, if he chooses to reject the simple gospel their is nothing more we can do to help him, his questions are not sincere he is merely looking for attention and is playing devils advocate by just seeing what kind of responses he will get so he can show us how "proud" he is with his rebellion against God.

Originally posted by Nosred

Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Nosred

 

1) I did also address natural cases and various other maladies that occur, as well as root cause (fallen world).

How about cancer caused by hormonal issues? Wouldn't that be god's fault, if there was one?

Why would a benevolent god even allow a small child who will die within the first year of his life to even be born? Let alone punish that child for the rest of eternity?

edit on 28-10-2011 by Nosred because: (no reason given)

To reiterate what I've addressed multiple times, god does not actively cause everything that happens in this life to happen, so no - it's not ANYONE's fault, but if you absolutely must assign blame regardless of how fruitless that is, you can ultimately blame our ancestors for rebelling, getting kicked out of the garden, and leading to the downfall of creation.

As to why he would "allow" the child to be born, again, he doesn't actively shape reality. He MADE creation - it is now running, and we shape what bits of it we have power over. The rest is nature and its workings, fallen and imperfect.

We've already clarified I don't believe in the fallacious doctrine of original sin. While man is predisposed to sin naturally, man is not born or formed in sin - sin is a conscious act.

reply to post by RevelationGeneration
Eh, is possible - or not.

Regardless, I don't mind. I can understand sincere anger or concern on these matters, and will do my best to address them either way. Besides, stuck at work for another 8 minutes and no more orders to work between, so I've got the free time and he doesn't seem to simply be trolling, not obviously so.

Take care.

reply to post by Nosred


I'm comparing the understanding of the child/adult to human/God.
Once you die, it will all make sense to you.

Originally posted by Praetorius
To reiterate what I've addressed multiple times, god does not actively cause everything that happens in this life to happen, so no - it's not ANYONE's fault,

So you're saying your god didn't create everything in the universe, including cancer?

but if you absolutely must assign blame regardless of how fruitless that is, you can ultimately blame our ancestors for rebelling, getting kicked out of the garden, and leading to the downfall of creations.

I'm not the one who's assigning blame, I don't believe in a god. It's impossible to assign blame for these things without believing in a god first, that's why I asked the question of how anyone could believe in a god that is okay with things like this happening.

Forgive me for preferring to think that these horrible things that happen *aren't* part of some omnipotent "benevolent" god's plan.

As to why he would "allow" the child to be born, again, he doesn't actively shape reality. He MADE creation - it is now running, and we shape what bits of it we have power over. The rest is nature and its workings, fallen and imperfect.

Why would a perfect god create an imperfect universe? If that's the case then why do you even assume that a god is necessary? Occam's razor.

reply to post by Nosred

So you're saying your god didn't create everything in the universe, including cancer?

I suppose you could say that, as cancer is not a thing in itself so much as it is the corruption and improper functioning of creation - and we've already discussed the corruption of creation resulting from sin and the fall.

I'm not the one who's assigning blame, I don't believe in a god. It's impossible to assign blame for these things without believing in a god first, that's why I asked the question of how anyone could believe in a god that is okay with things like this happening.

Forgive me for preferring to think that these horrible things that happen *aren't* part of some omnipotent "benevolent" god's plan.

When you're saying "How can god do/allow/cause this?", etc., you're assigning blame. And you're forgiven, despite being partially correct.. they are not part of the original plan, but shall be reconciled.

Why would a perfect god create an imperfect universe? If that's the case then why do you even assume that a god is necessary? Occam's razor.

He didn't create an imperfect universe, but he did create a corruptible one (go us, ugh...). As far as god being necessary, that stems from my (current) understandings of causality, the beginnings of the universe as we know it, (a)biogenesis, where information and language comes from, entropy, morality, our continually-increasing understanding of the intricacy of life, and a whole host of other things.

For me to believe that everything sprang from nothing in contradiction to what we call laws, fought against the natural order of degradation and decay, organized into blueprints/commands with no willful direction, spawned the variety of life from random chemical interactions, organized an explosion into efficient and orderly systems, and that all the other facts of reality just...happened...presently strains credibility for me. Granted, that won't stop me from trying to learn about it.

Have a good night, and take care.

Originally posted by Nosred
If God exists, why are there starving children?

Checkmate.

If God doesn't exist, why aren't you feeding them?

Here is where you made an illegal move on the chess board:

God separated the light from the darkness. This was His first move. He then produced a reality in image of true reality by the four components of time, space, matter and energy.

Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

The image is real to us but artificial to God. God then produces consciousness in the form of a soul. The soul is then placed into a bio-mechanical suit to experience the image. Genesis 1:27 states this clearly.

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Here is where your question is answered. I will now move your chess piece back to its starting point.

Take a look around the chess board. You occupy the position of the player. You did not create the chess board or determine the rules. Rule yourself out on this part. You do not make the sun shine or the earth spin. You do not make your hair grow or your eyes see. As a matter of fact, apart from thinking and moving, you do NOTHING! Think it through. The entire world and reality around you is produced so you can think and move. You do nothing else. Name one thing and I will let you move your player back into its previous position.

Now that you can see that you are only here because of what God provided, now ask yourself what your duty to God is on the chess board of life.

I'll ask again. If children are starving, why aren't you feeding them? God has already provided an abundant garden for you to grow food, think and move. Get busy!