Is The US Declaration of Independence Illegal? - UK (Law) Thinks So...

This might get a debate going, a healthy one mind you. I'm not sure where i stand on this argument, so a bit of American input would be good.

The article linked below indicates that UK researchers have found that the Declaration of Independence is indeed illegal. Whether that is true or not is open to debate.

Is It or Isn't It Illegal?

On Tuesday night, while Republican candidates in Nevada were debating such American issues as nuclear waste disposal and the immigration status of Mitt Romney's gardener, American and British lawyers in Philadelphia were taking on a far more fundamental topic.

Namely, just what did Thomas Jefferson think he was doing?

The American Case:

The Declaration is unquestionably "legal". Under basic principles of "Natural Law", government can only be by the consent of the people and there comes a point when allegiance is no longer required in face of tyranny. The legality of the Declaration and its validity is proven by subsequent independence movements which have been enforced by world opinion as right and just, based on the fundamental principles of equality and self-determination now reflected in the UN Charter

The British Case:

The Declaration of Independence was not only illegal, but actually treasonable. There is no legal principle then or now to allow a group of citizens to establish their own laws because they want to. What if Texas decided today it wanted to secede from the Union? Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right. The Declaration of Independence itself, in the absence of any recognised legal basis, had to appeal to "natural law", an undefined concept, and to "self-evident truths", that is to say truths for which no evidence could be provided. The grievances listed in the Declaration were too trivial to justify secession. The main one - no taxation without representation - was no more than a wish on the part of the colonists, to avoid paying for the expense of protecting them against the French during seven years of arduous war and conflict

The American Experiment:

The event, presented by the Temple American Inn of Court in conjunction with Gray's Inn, London, pitted British barristers against American lawyers to determine whether or not the American colonists had legal grounds to declare secession. For American lawyers, the answer is simple: "The English had used their own Declaration of Rights to depose James II and these acts were deemed completely lawful and justified," they say in their summary. To the British, however, secession isn't the legal or proper tool by which to settle internal disputes. "What if Texas decided today it wanted to secede from the Union? Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right," they argue in their brief. A vote at the end of the debate reaffirmed the legality of Jefferson and company's insurrection, and the American experiment survived to see another day. It was an unsurprising result, considering the venue - just a few blocks away from where the Declaration was drafted. But did they get it right? Below are some more of the arguments from both sides.

IMO i think it is perfectly legal, however, i can see the case for it not being legal. I'm on the fence!

Who cares what UK thinks in this case. We separated from them, it is what it is.
If UK has a problem with it then they can start another war to get us under their control.
They can get over it, legal or not, we are free from UK control.
Besides, illegal according to UK laws? So what. What are they going to do about it.

Nothing personal against UK, but.....

reply to post by jrmcleod


Do you really think America cares what The Uk may think of our Constitution? Learn to loose!!

I think the example of Libya is ideal here, I'm sure the ntc taking the country from gaddafi is illegal.

Yet, they are still claiming their 'independence'.

So I'd agree with what happened that day would actually be treason.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by jrmcleod

 

Do you really think America cares what The UK may think of our Constitution?

This isn't really a case of does America care what the UK thinks...

Its a case of (and only a question with no opinion from me) "Was the US Built On A Lie?"

The American peoples opinion of the UK's opinion is kinda irrespective here!

Originally posted by Skewed
Who cares what UK thinks in this case. We separated from them, it is what it is.
If UK has a problem with it then they can start another war to get us under their control.
They can get over it, legal or not, we are free from UK control.
Besides, illegal according to UK laws? So what. What are they going to do about it.

Nothing personal against UK, but.....

Personally i don't have a problem with it and i doubt the UK as a whole really does either , don't take it too heart...its a healthy "study on times gone by"...

It's legal because we say it's legal.

If there are any problems with that do something about it.

Originally posted by soldita
It's legal because we say it's legal.

If there are any problems with that do something about it.

Mature response

Our separation from the tyranny of King George was just, and the British cannot argue that point as they themselves removed the monarchal control over their own kingdom and replaced it with a Parliament, basically removing the rule of a single master and replacing that “rule” with a hand up the ass. Were they treasonous in doing so? Let them argue that.

ETA: as not to confuse people further.

I am referring to a controlling parliament, headed by an "Elected" Prime Minister, not simply a House of Lords and Commons.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
Our separation from the tyranny of King George was just, and the British cannot argue that point as they themselves removed the monarchal control over their own kingdom and replaced it with a Parliament, basically removing the rule of a single master and replacing that “rule” with a hand up the ass. Were they treasonous in doing so? Let them argue that.

I see where you are going with that statement but the British case in this experiment is that the Declaration of Independence was a document devised by a group of people without the consent of the nation.

This is where the Legal issue is derived from.

Look, this isn't me making a thread based on MY opinions, this is a report conducted...i'm just the messenger

reply to post by jrmcleod

With the way the U.S. is going, do you really think the U.K. would want America back?

Before this thread turns into a territorial peeing contest, please note that this is a debate between lawyers and not an actual position by "the UK"

So, who cares what these lawyers think? I don't. Its a ridiculous exercise and a waste of debate because it won't change a damn thing.

But just to be clear, once again, because the title of the thread is completely sensationalised and totally misleading "some lawyers may think its illegal"

"The UK" doesn't.

Wow. They are a little late on this aren't they, around 230+ (?) years late. Why haven't this been brought up before now? Or has it?


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by neformore


Duplicate thread?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Mind you, This shows a wee bit more info in the OP.

reply to post by jrmcleod


That why war was declared, to make a seperate country thus making your laws unapplicable.

Legal/Illegal? Just a point of view of those in debate. Fact: the colonists rebelled and gained independance. This independance has forged one of the closest alliances known in modern history.

They are not our enemies, just rebelious teenagers that did not want to be told what to do by their parents. Now they have grown up, we could not have wished for better children for the support they have given us over recent years.

If the people are not allowed to make law then the government certai ly isnt allowed because its made up of the people!!!!!

We choose people from the public to ensure natural law is maintained, if a set of people in government decide to start making laws against the masses then this is tyranny and disgusting.

Its up to the citizens to decide what the law should be, not a select few which will lead to the death of billions. I am totally shocked,

What on gods green earth gives a few people with money the right to impose laws as they wish. Thats not only tyranical its totally outrageous, dangerous, and puts the power in the hands of a few psychopathic criminals. There are no words to describe this statement, its f****ing disgusting, period.

I don't care whether it was legal or illegal.

The way that the US has turned out makes me damn glad that we did get shot of them !

Originally posted by Skewed
Who cares what UK thinks in this case. We separated from them, it is what it is.
If UK has a problem with it then they can start another war to get us under their control.
They can get over it, legal or not, we are free from UK control.
Besides, illegal according to UK laws? So what. What are they going to do about it.

Nothing personal against UK, but.....

First Charters Of Virginia *cough* ..... America still belongs to the crown , theyre lying to Americans ...... its that simple.

reply to post by jrmcleod


I understand your stance, but the argument remains:
If the Colonies were considered a “part of the nation” enough to be taxed, then they were national enough to make a decision on their own, and being that they were a colony thousands of miles from the rest of the world, the weight of the rest of the people under King James wouldn’t have counted in the affairs of those in the Americas. If they weren’t considered a part of the nation any longer by residing outside of the “kingdom”, then the King’s arm no longer had any reign over them, and so their declaration of independence was still sound.

This sort of debate is never ending, full of so many catch-22s that it’ll have your brain hurting, which is why nearly two and a half centuries later, lawyers are still having these debates. To be honest, it doesn’t really matter at this point, as neither nation is likely to survive the next hundred years…. at least not in their present forms.
We've built a mighty alliance with our previous mother, and unfortunately, that relationship has become toxic.