Freemasons are Good Guys(Spirit Science)

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What makes something a religion?

When it offers salvation. Masonry does not fit this description.

What then is the point of making men better?

It shouldn't really matter whether men are improving or not, if there's no salvation to result from the effort.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What then is the point of making men better?

To improve our time in this world by helping others.

It shouldn't really matter whether men are improving or not, if there's no salvation to result from the effort.

Only God can offer salvation.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What then is the point of making men better?

To improve our time in this world by helping others.

What an excellent response !

I'm impressed.

But, then, the BIG question becomes..."Why on earth doesn't Freemasonry open its doors to everyone ?"

Surely, this is a doctrine to be shared, and not to be held closeted behind the shut doors of the Lodge.

Why is Freemasonry so "exclusive" on membership?

Don't masons believe that everyone could help improving the lives of others?

That immediately reminds me of the saying of Jesus:

Jesus said, "The harvest is great but the laborers are few. Beseech the Lord, therefore, to send out laborers to the harvest." -- The Gospel of Thomas #73

Source: www.gnosis.org...

There are so few masons for such great work. Why not "beseech the Lord" to send more masons, throw open the doors of the Lodge, and let whoever the Lord sends come in and help with this good work?

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, then, the BIG question becomes..."Why on earth doesn't Freemasonry open its doors to everyone ?"

Surely, this is a doctrine to be shared, and not to be held closeted behind the shut doors of the Lodge.

You do not need to be a Mason to be kind and helpful to others. Also, I would suspect that Masonry would not be for everyone if it were in fact open to every single person on the planet.

W

Originally posted by DRAZIW
They are not sheep!

Thank God that's all cleared up.

I can walk into any Church while it's activities are in session.

That's awesome. Freemasonry isn't a church or a religion, it is a PRIVATE organization.

Apart from that, Freemasonry inherited its ways from the old orders that did once meet physically below the ground, like the Cult of Mithras---look it up for yourself.

No, as the accuser the burden of proof lies with you not me. You post.

Some masons say G is...

There is no reason to read any further. Right here is my point, a Mason defines not an anti-Mason. I bet you'd be hard pressed to factually back up the whole king theory.

And you know this, how?

Oh sure you can read something in a book or online, but you'll never truly comprehend or understand our secrets.

Everyone has some ego.

You let yours runaway with itself and obviously it gets the best of you.

And that's the real problem between the Catholic Church and freemasonry, isn't it? For the Church has Fathers also, that's why the Catholic Church bans Freemasonry for it's members, they refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Church Fathers. Therefore one cannot be a Catholic and a Freemason at the same time, it would be a contradiction.

Don't put words in my mouth. Freemasonry as an institution is neutral to the facts of a particular faith. It is the church who has the problem not us. We welcome Catholics just ad we do with any man of faith.

It is up to the individual to recognize the Roman Catholic apostolic line not the institution. The Church hates us as we don't fall under their control and their brand of religion.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
It shouldn't really matter whether men are improving or not, if there's no salvation to result from the effort.

That's an awfully selfish stance to take.

You'd only help your fellow man if there was something in it for you?

Originally posted by DRAZIW
But, then, the BIG question becomes..."Why on earth doesn't Freemasonry open its doors to everyone ?"

Surely, this is a doctrine to be shared, and not to be held closeted behind the shut doors of the Lodge.

Freemasonry doesn't stop anyone else from starting their own clubs and teaching the exact same knowledge. We're not preventing anyone from learning these lessons elsewhere. We've just got a very particular way of doing it; it works for us to continue doing it this way; and if we changed it, it would no longer be Freemasonry.

That's not to say one couldn't learn the same lessons in the religion of their choice, nor any other mystery school, or many philosophies.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What then is the point of making men better?

It shouldn't really matter whether men are improving or not, if there's no salvation to result from the effort.

We're trying to improve a man so as he might improve those around him and his community.

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Originally posted by KSigMason

There is no reason to read any further. Right here is my point, a Mason defines not an anti-Mason. I bet you'd be hard pressed to factually back up the whole king theory.

One mason says "A", and the next mason you meet denies "A". That's how masonry goes.

Masons do have a few pat statements that they use as their uniting motto's, like "make good men better".

That kind of statement all masons will repeat endlessly and agree. They agree, that is, until you ask a mason what means "good" and what means them "better". Then, once again, each mason disagrees on the points.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by DRAZIW
It shouldn't really matter whether men are improving or not, if there's no salvation to result from the effort.

That's an awfully selfish stance to take.

You'd only help your fellow man if there was something in it for you?

What's selfish about it?

In the capitalist democratic state, the key belief is that when each person acts in his own self interest, the collective actions promote the best result possible.

The reason why this is so, is because it is not possible to know what is best for other people. So when we try to do things for others, we use our own imagination and delusion, end up with some "compromise" situation as Margret Tacher says, where nobody wins, everybody loses, and no one benefits.

When acting in our own self interest, at least one person benefits: "Number One".

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What's selfish about it?

---

When acting in our own self interest, at least one person benefits: "Number One".

You answered your own question. With this belief you will truly never know true charity.

reply to post by Arcot

I love the Spirit Science videos.

But that doesn't mean that I think Drunvalo's data can be totally trusted. After all, where does he say he gets his data from? ETs and the CIA, right?

Not exactly the two most reliable sources of data on this planet!

So Drunvalo has a great line, and Jordan's rendition is quite artful, but that doesn't mean we should all start believing that it's all true!

Thanks for the links, these videos look very interesting I'm starting with the first one before jumping into the Freemason ones.

However I will leave this.

The illuminate and Freemasons were a secret society because it was a necessity at the time to undermine the current regime and establishment at the time they were free thinkers and brought about the enlightenment era. I agree however that the freemason do not need to a secrete society anymore. Even though they really are not that secretive today, to expunge the nasty rumors about them they need to be aggressively open. The free thinking society is established its time to take advantage of that and expand upon it.

As for the illuminate, I doubt they even really exist anymore. It is said that some Fraternity still associate themselves with the illuminate or use the name illuminate as a rank.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by DRAZIW
What's selfish about it?

---

When acting in our own self interest, at least one person benefits: "Number One".

You answered your own question. With this belief you will truly never know true charity.

Ah! Yes, "CHARITY".

I know the word.

But, I'm unsure what masons mean when they use it.

So, let me ask you a question about charity.

Let us suppose that a beggar sits at a street corner trying to catch the attention of the passersby. One fellow, a Mr. D, walks by and the beggar asks him "Sir, can you spare a cigarette?". Mr D shakes his head, says "no", and continues on. The beggar curses him for being so mean.

But, Mr D happens to be a Doctor, and he knows the terrible effects of smoking on the lungs. In fact, he's a cancer specialist, and has many patients like the beggar in his office everyday. The beggar doesn't know this, nor has Mr. D the time at the moment to explain all his knowledge to the beggar, he's on his way to perform lung surgery right now on a smoking patient.

A second fellow, a Mr. S, also walks by, and the beggar asks him too the same question. As it turns out, Mr S is a fellow smoker, and he understands that urge to light up and get that quick fix. He reaches into his pocket and takes out a pack, hands the beggar two cigarettes. The beggar blesses him for his generosity. Lights up the cigarettes and adds some more smog to his ailing lungs.

Who was being charitable to the beggar? Mr D, the doctor--whom the beggar cursed--whose thought was to save the beggar from making himself more ill, or Mr S, the smoker--whom the beggar blessed--whose thought was to relieve the beggar from his immediate stress?

How does a mason know whether his charitable act is beneficial to the recipient?

What standard of measure is used, in masonry, to determine the effectiveness of any particular "charity".

I'm sure, that for a fraternity that prides itself on charity, there must be a good answer to this puzzling question.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
How does a mason know whether his charitable act is beneficial to the recipient?

When a burn victim is treated in one of the best burn centers in America for free. When someone needs cataracts surgery and the Knights Templar Eye Foundation covers it. When someone has an angiogram (or similar procedure) the common star clamp used is a patent of the Cryptic Masons Medical Research Foundation who does cardio-vascular research with a university. Or the research assistance that the Royal Arch does auditory issues. Our charities do more than deal with ethical dilemmas with bums on the streets. Our charities are also free to the recipient.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Our charities are also free to the recipient.

Is it really fair to charge some individuals for medical care, while providing that same care to others for free?

Isn't that "socialism" for the few, and "capitalism" for the rest?

Why do masons support capitalism, if they are so proud of their socialist activities?

Is it that masons believe that "socialist" system is more "charitable" than the "capitalist" system?

Why not let the capitalist system work it's magic, allocating resources efficiently according to demand and supply, rewarding and punishing individual effort according to merit, by treating all peoples equally?

Why would an "unfair advantage", introduced by "charitable works benefiting the few", be considered a good thing, in an otherwise overall just society that automatically distributes benefits more rationally according to individual worth?

Is the introduction of "unjust" action within a "just" system the definition of masonic "charity"?

reply to post by DRAZIW

Jesus Christ, DRAZIW! Freemasonry can do nothing right in your eyes can it? You want it to be the bad guy so much you'll nite pick at it to justify your hatred.

Its charity for the less fortunate. A lot of money also goes to research. If you ever have a procedure where they clamp an artery using a star clamp, thank the research funded by the Masons.

Its not socialism, its charity, something most religions support. If you think charity is socialism then you need to do some research.

Last time I checked this was a free country and if we want to give charitable assistance then we will. We're not here for your approval.

Nor is every one of our charities based on income.

Originally posted by DRAZIW

Why do masons support capitalism, if they are so proud of their socialist activities?

The Masons, as a group, do not support capitalism or socialism. Some Masons (J.C. Penney, Harlan Sanders, etc.) were capitalists. Other Masons (Salvadore Allende, W.E.B. DuBoise, Francis Bellamy) have been socialists.

Originally posted by DRAZIW
Is it really fair to charge some individuals for medical care, while providing that same care to others for free?

As far as I know the services are free to everyone that applies. I may be mistaken but the one that I am most invloved with, the Scottish Rite Learning Centers, are a first come, first served basis.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by DRAZIW

 

Jesus Christ, DRAZIW! Freemasonry can do nothing right in your eyes can it? You want it to be the bad guy so much you'll nite pick at it to justify your hatred.

This I don't understand. I just asked a couple of questions to clarify the use of the term "charity" by masons.

This is an important part of masonry. Every mason should know what charity is, and be able to identify it.

Its charity for the less fortunate. A lot of money also goes to research. If you ever have a procedure where they clamp an artery using a star clamp, thank the research funded by the Masons.

From the biblical point of view, "charity" is an expression of "love". In fact, some versions of the bible simply replace the word "charity" with "love". To be more accurate, one might call it "applied love", since it's not a passive kind of love. But, it requires "knowledge", especially, the knowledge of cause and effects.


The first requirement of charity, therefore, is that there be knowledge sufficient to determine the effect of the charity before undertaking the work.

Its not socialism, its charity, something most religions support. If you think charity is socialism then you need to do some research.

Well there's free medical care in Canada, for example, and it's called socialism there. But, the major difference is that everyone gets the free care. It's not limited to a few select individuals.

Last time I checked this was a free country and if we want to give charitable assistance then we will.

Well you give something. I can't tell if it is charitable. I simply don't know the details. That's why I illustrated the dilemma of the Doctor and Smoker in the beggar's case above. Each person thinks he is being charitable, by his acts, according to his own understanding. But is the one receiving getting a benefit? Even if the one receiving says "Thank You", and blesses his apparent benefactor, it could very well turn out later that he comes to understand that it wasn't a benefit. When the beggar dies, and goes to heaven, looking back on earth at the scene played back for him about that time at the street corner, he sees that the Doctor he cursed was trying to help, and the Smoker he blessed actually killed him.


So, do masons give in order to receive "Thank You" responses from their recipients? Or do they give according to some "special knowledge" that masons have, that allows them to make better decisions than the rest of us on who to give and who not to give to?

We're not here for your approval.

I'm not asking for approval. Only asking to understand what masons mean by the term charity.

Nor is every one of our charities based on income.

This I understand. In the US the rich receive "charity", often called bail-outs, for example, as well as the poor, where it's called "medicaid" and "food stamps".. It's the people in the middle, the so called middle-class, that are often left out of being the beneficiaries of the charitable giving.

My question is why should there be any special groups at all, for the charity works?