Anti-Chemtrail Challenge For Nay Sayers.

Look up in the sky...
Is it a cloud...?
Is it a contrail...?
No! it's....
What the %@C& is that?

I find it hard to understand why there are still some of us who don't believe in the existence of chem-trails. We've found patents proving they exist; we've found pilots admitting to spraying them; we've found the mention of Chemtrails in government documents outlining the rules of terrorism; we've found the weather manipulating patents and companies that admit to spraying them, calling it cloud seeding; and we've seen enough videos and photos showing the differences between contrails and Chemtrails, and showing how these Chemtrails expand to become clouds themselves.
So...all theories aside, there is NO DOUBT that Chemtrails exist. I'm not going to say they are poisoning us with them, I'm not going to say they are used in conjunction with H.A.A.R.P. In fact, I'm not going to say anything bout their purpose at all...because their purpose cannot be proven...yet.
But their existence can.
So I have a hard time understanding how any of us can deny they exist. For those of us who say Chemtrails do not exists, that they are just contrails acting according to altitude and weather, my challenge is as follows.
I would like to see some OLD pictures and/ or videos that show Chemtrails. Now the Chemtrail theories are about 20 years old or so, so any pictures or videos need to be at least 20 years old, and varifyably so.
If Chemtrails are just contrails, then surely they've existed for over 20 or 30 years, right?
So all naysayers, start looking through your old home videos and photographs, ask your parents and grandparents to look through their old collections. Prove the rest of us wrong by showing us that our contrails have always left long lines and checkerboards in our skies.
Thank you for reading, and, to those that do, thank you for participating.
Peace and One Love

reply to post by Scorpitarius


Personally I think this whole chem-trail non-sense is bat sh*t insane. Another member of ATS did an excellent job of debunking this farce you can find it here. Along with all of the evidence you could care to read but then again you're probably not going to bother reading it.

Use the "Search" feature here. This is brought up at least once a week. If that is too confusing, go to Contrail Science. Here's the link:
Contrail Science

Then take some time and look through this entire section. Everything you challenge is already here, and already debunked. You don't ask any question that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum.

There is so much science and history that refutes everything a "chemtrail" believer thinks is proof that I'm surprised anyone still believes in "chemtrails" at all.

Chemtrails = Crazy fodder

Below is a comment made on the link stars15k posted.

36.Revolutionary says:
November 12, 2010 at 7:06 am .I am not a scientist I am just a carny working state fairs all over the country.Sometimes I get to places that have no trails in the sky .No trails for days .We set up with no trails .Have the light show with no trails.Saturday morning the trails start.The skies of blue turn white with persistent trails that become long whisking clouds .The clouds take over the sky and it becomes hotter.I see it feel it and I have become ultra aware of it.I do not need science to tell me something is wrong with it .I have watched the trails being laid low over the fairgrounds.starting from one side and ending at the other.Weather control is a possible reason.Carnivals stimulate the economy and they are all owned by shrine rs and free masons.People control could be another reason.Raleigh had the largest crowd of people I had ever seen this year and the chem trails were the worst and most obvious I had ever witnessed

Science may say one thing but our eyes and thinking don't always agree.

they do exist,but what can we say or do in a world were a few are free to do as they wish. wile the others are under the rules imposed by the very same who do as they wish.using science and law as there excuse.is there a point in playing there hide and seek game?we just look like little old ladies ranting.something is very wrong the way structures of power resemble bees and ant colonies.

reply to post by relocator


Except you cannot account for personal bias when making judgments. That's why science at least tries to bring elements of true objectivity when looking at phenomena.

The problem with a lot of this is that people who lack the necessary education make stupid decisions based on emotion instead of taking every factor into account and coming up with something resembling the truth. Its the same reason why intelligent people will limit themselves to a one or two children they can provide for while un-educated people will just shag and spew out more spawn - there is no control over the emotional nature. The emotional nature within us over-rides the higher brain functions and causes us to operate from a more primal area of the brain.

I'm not getting into an elitist argument or going into the reasons for the disparity in intelligence - suffice to say it's real and it can be objectively observed, at least in part, here, almost every single day.

*facepalm*

Originally posted by Imhotepsol
reply to post by Scorpitarius

 

Personally I think this whole chem-trail non-sense is bat sh*t insane. Another member of ATS did an excellent job of debunking this farce you can find it here. Along with all of the evidence you could care to read but then again you're probably not going to bother reading it.

Heh..... sorry but the thread you linked did not do an excellent job of debunking anything.... in fact my 4 year old has more common sense than the OP in that thread. ...And frankly ...the flags speak for themsleves. The thread failed. End of story.

Also sounds like you haven't bothered to read anything that does prove Chemtrails exist.....

Of course the debunkers can't resist linking there only source of information. contrailscience.com....

Just so we are straight.... contrailscience uses absolutely NO science at all..... and the site is in fact run by some joe shmoe who has NO scientific degrees and simply uses guess work and has NEVER used the Scientific Method to prove any of the ridiculous claims he makes on his site. ..... simply put ... he CAN"T use the scientific method unless he has planes and instruments to do so.....

Sad world you chemtrail deniers live in.

Originally posted by dplum517

Just so we are straight.... contrailscience uses absolutely NO science at all..... and the site is in fact run by some joe shmoe who has NO scientific degrees and simply uses guess work and has NEVER used the Scientific Method to prove any of the ridiculous claims he makes on his site. ..... simply put ... he CAN"T use the scientific method unless he has planes and instruments to do so.....

ContrailScience is run by me, Mick West. If you can find any errors in it, then post them here, and I'll correct them.

For the OP, this page has lots of old photos of contrails that are mostly from old scanned snapshots on Flickr:

contrailscience.com...

Old accounts and videos:
Persistent contrails have been around for a long time. For a long time it has been known what they are.

From 1919:

The second German sighting occurred on May 9, 1919, when a pilot flying over Berlin at about 26,000 feet noticed the generation of a cloud stream that extended for about forty miles behind his plane. This stream eventually spread out to form a cloud layer that was about 3,000 feet thick. The pilot saw a similar phenomenon two days later.

www.accessmylibrary.com...

From 1940:

A few months later I witnessed the Battle of Britain taking place over my head in the July, August and September 1940. Being in SE London we had a grandstand view of the titanic struggle going on day aftr day with the intricate patterns of the contrails the most evident witness to the dog fights taking place.

www.bbc.co.uk... Short contrails do not produce intricate patterns.

1944:

So an airplane at great heights leaves behind it, stretching for endless miles, a visible "wake" composed of ice particles so tiny that they do not fall as snow but remain suspended in the air.

Source

From 1947:

Photo taken by Jerry Cole, combat aerialphotographer in the 390th Bomb Group at Framlingham Air Base in England. He is looking for a print from the original negative he shot around January 1944 or before. It shows contrails of P-47's crossing each other in the background and a B-17 in the foreground.

scoutbird.tripod.com...


From 1968:

Daily, for example, hundreds of jet planes crisscross the nation or great parts of it, often leaving fluffy contrails of water vapor, manmade clouds, as a signature of their passage.

Some contrails soon dissapate. Others turn into or are soon followed by high cirruse clouds that can and do influence the earth's heat balance with the sun.

news.google.com...,2068835&dq=contrails+cirrus&hl=en





From 1970:

The spreading out of jet contrails into extensive cirrus sheets is a familiar sight. Often, when persistent conditions exist from 25,000 to 40,000ft, several long contrails increase in number and gradually merge into an almost solid interlaced sheet.

journals.ametsoc.org...

Henry Wadsworth Hinkle, hired man down on the farm with Uncle Clarence and Aunt Martha, looked skyward a few days ago and was awed by the multiplicity of "vapor trails," as he called them. That's the old name. Now they are called contrails-short for condensation trails-resulting from the condensation of heat flowing from high-flying jet engines.

Source

A 43-year-old novice sailor said today that he followed jet contrails over the Atlantic to help him navigate after his sextant was smashed six days out of Pymouth, England.

Source He didn't follow jets, he followed contrails. You can't follow a short contrail.

1972:

Then there is the matter of cloudiness. The familiar contrails often left by high-flying planes might persist for a long time under some conditions.

Source


From 1973:

Often, after several clear days, high flying jets begin leaving condensation trails in the sky. These "contrails" are the result of the condensation of water vapor that accompanies engine combustion at high altitudes.

Source

He occasionally looked out the window at the earth and noted geographical locations. "We're coming over Europe and I've never seen so many jet plane contrails in my life," he reported

Source

Shore was no naïf; he recognized the irony of many of his images. One of the cleverest is "U.S. 97, South of Klamath Falls, Oregon, July 21, 1973," which depicts a desolate spot of road where a billboard displays a snowcapped-mountain scene — against actual mountains in the distance. The billboard image seems to emerge from the land itself. Along with a cattle gate and a sky with blown-out contrails, the billboard is a tired and shabby advertisement for America itself.

www.pitch.com... Contrails have to be around for a while to be "blown-out".

Then there's this 1965 Outer Limits episode (at about 0:30).


Twilight Zone from 1985. (at 8:56 and 13:13).

reply to post by Phage


That's great and all but you are simply saying Contrails exist and in some cases persist due to atmospheric conditions.

No one is saying Contrails don't exist.

You also don't take into account the mountains of evidence that support Chemtrails and the activity seen in the last decade. More so the prominence of it in the last 5 years.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that someone or some government/corporate entity wants the ability to make a Contrail persist no matter what the condition is..... so they invent some simple devices and force a contrail no matter the condition and may or may not add chemicals to it ....so we call it a Chemtrail.

Do you not see the capability that might provide to those types of people??

Also ....I have to say that the Outer limits clips don't really show anything .... Ive seen clouds form that way ..... and the clips didn't show the planes themselves leaving the trails.

reply to post by Uncinus



Exactly..... like I said.

Don't make me repeat myself.

reply to post by dplum517


So despise contrailscience.com being run by "some joe shmoe", you can't actually find any errors on it?

Well, then what's the problem with my lack of credentials, if everything I've said is correct?

And for the OP, you mean things like this:

www.flickr.com...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0ee91a057841.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Scorpitarius
Look up in the sky...
Is it a cloud...?
Is it a contrail...?
No! it's....
What the %@C& is that?

I find it hard to understand why there are still some of us who don't believe in the existence of chem-trails. We've found patents proving they exist;

No "we" haven't.

"We" have found patents for all sorts of things - but "we" apparently do not actually know what a patent is.

A patent is someone protecting an IDEA.

It is nto actually evidence that the idea being protected is being used at all.

In short, the existence fo a patent is NOT proof that the thing that is patented has ever been built, let alone deployed on thousands of aircraft.

we've found pilots admitting to spraying them;

Not that I'm aware.

I am aware of a story circulating about a pilot supposedly trying to get laid & telling some woman in a bar in out-back Washinton State or Oregon or somewhere like that about him spraying chemtrails. I have a sneaking suspicion that here may be 1 or 2 other anonymous pilot stories out there.

I have seen a pathetic "mechanics story" about hollow static dischargers - I'm an aircraft mechanic - the story makes no sense to me whatsoever.

so in fact we have a few anonymous stories that could have been invented by anyone anywhere.

we've found the mention of Chemtrails in government documents outlining the rules of terrorism;

News to me - what document is that?

I am aware of a briefing by Cohen where "eco terrorism" is mentioned as a fake threat that a terrorist organisation might threaten that would then have to be dealt with even though no such thing exists. Here you go - debunked

Was there something else?

we've found the weather manipulating patents and companies that admit to spraying them, calling it cloud seeding;

1/ weather =/= climate
2/ Cloud seeding looks nothing like the putative chemtrails, are not sprayed from jetliners, are not secret, are not sprayed at high altitude, asre not sprayed on clear days, and generally are difficult to see!!

and we've seen enough videos and photos showing the differences between contrails and Chemtrails, and showing how these Chemtrails expand to become clouds themselves.

contrails expanding to become cirrus clouds when the conditions are right has been known to happen and documented since at least 1940

So...all theories aside, there is NO DOUBT that Chemtrails exist.

all the evidence is drivel - unsupported, bad science, poor understanding of what is seen, and sometimes outright dishonesty.

It is a sad day for humanity when such drivel is porposed as positive proof that something exists beyond doubt!

I'm not going to say they are poisoning us with them, I'm not going to say they are used in conjunction with H.A.A.R.P. In fact, I'm not going to say anything bout their purpose at all...because their purpose cannot be proven...yet.
But their existence can.

Go on and do so then - because your proof to date has been debunked many times over.

So I have a hard time understanding how any of us can deny they exist.

Well I'm glad to have provided you with a clearer picture

For those of us who say Chemtrails do not exists, that they are just contrails acting according to altitude and weather, my challenge is as follows.
I would like to see some OLD pictures and/ or videos that show Chemtrails. Now the Chemtrail theories are about 20 years old or so, so any pictures or videos need to be at least 20 years old, and varifyably so.
If Chemtrails are just contrails, then surely they've existed for over 20 or 30 years, right?
So all naysayers, start looking through your old home videos and photographs, ask your parents and grandparents to look through their old collections. Prove the rest of us wrong by showing us that our contrails have always left long lines and checkerboards in our skies.
Thank you for reading, and, to those that do, thank you for participating.
Peace and One Love

ROFL.....here's a whole thread devoted to just that - you are not the 1st one to have this delusion:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by dplum517
That's great and all but you are simply saying Contrails exist and in some cases persist due to atmospheric conditions. No one is saying Contrails don't exist.

But "chemtrail" hoaxers continue to make the claim that persistent contrails are actually "chemtrails", and that is absolutely false and has been proven incorrect time and time again, including right in this very thread.

Originally posted by dplum517
You also don't take into account the mountains of evidence that support Chemtrails

There has never been any scientific evidence what-so-ever, let alone a "mountain" of evidence to support the "chemtrail" hoax.

One easy way to prove something is being sprayed is to swab several things outside, have those swabs tested in a lab to see what's being sprayed.

Something the "chemtrail" hoaxers keep forgetting is if something really was being sprayed, it would be all over everything outside. The bushes, the roof of your house, the lawn, a car that's been sitting for days or weeks, a playground. Whatever they're spraying will be all over every single thing outside under the open sky.

Now get some swabs from several locations around the country and/or the world with the same chemicals reported in all swabs, and then you might have something convincing. But there is, nor never has been, any repeatable scientific evidence. And without repeatable scientific evidence, there are no "chemtrails". It's only a HOAX without scientific evidence.

Why is it so hard to get swabs of things outside and have them tested in a lab? Are "chemtrail" hoaxers scared their hoax might be proven a hoax?

Originally posted by dplum517
and the activity seen in the last decade.

Oh, you mean the activity of the population increasing on this planet, and thus more planes are built creating more contrails in the sky?

Originally posted by dplum517
Why is it so hard to comprehend that someone or some government/corporate entity wants the ability to make a Contrail persist no matter what the condition is

Why is it so hard to comprehend that someone doesn't need to make a contrail persist as they've been able to persist since the dawn of powered flight, or the better part of a century?

Originally posted by dplum517
so they invent some simple devices and force a contrail no matter the condition

They don't need to invent any devices to force a contrail. Contrails will always happen when a plane flies at the right altitude.

Originally posted by dplum517
and may or may not add chemicals to it ....so we call it a Chemtrail.

Don't go changing the meaning of "chemtrails". The whole purpose of calling them "chemtrails" is because they're allegedly either adding chemicals to the fuel of planes so that it gets sprayed out of the engines, or planes are specially equipped with special devices that spray the chemicals out, and those chemicals are purposely sprayed to harm us.

And see, "chemtrail" hoaxers can't even get that part of the story straight either.

Originally posted by dplum517
Do you not see the capability that might provide to those types of people??

Do you not see, that this whole "chemtrail" hoax can easily go away with simple grade-school physics and meteorology?

Originally posted by dplum517

Just so we are straight.... contrailscience uses absolutely NO science at all..... and the site is in fact run by some joe shmoe who has NO scientific degrees and simply uses guess work and has NEVER used the Scientific Method to prove any of the ridiculous claims he makes on his site. ..... simply put ... he CAN"T use the scientific method unless he has planes and instruments to do so.....

Thats pretty harsh considering the civil and respectful contributions Uncinus makes here at ATS and at his site.

You call him a joe shmoe. I say thats a good thing. I don't put much stock in the official scientists after 911, BP Oil spill, Fukushima, Global Warming, etc.

Go ahead and debunk his site if its all BS. I eagerly await you're results.

Just so you know, I do believe in the possibility of chemtrails and have crossed swords with many of the main debunkers here and they honestly set me straight on some things. Facts are facts, you just have to be mature enough to admit when you're wrong.

Originally posted by dplum517
Just so we are straight.... contrailscience uses absolutely NO science at all..... and the site is in fact run by some joe shmoe who has NO scientific degrees and simply uses guess work and has NEVER used the Scientific Method to prove any of the ridiculous claims he makes on his site.

How about all these ridiculous claims then? Seems to me he's used a fair bit of scientific method to prove them - looked at the hypothesis, found some evidence, made a conclusion.

don't see why he would need a degree to prove them though - "chemtrail" beleivers are always saying "believe your eyes" - why shouldn't we do so in these cases??

..... simply put ... he CAN"T use the scientific method unless he has planes and instruments to do so.....

He doesn't ctually claim to have done anything that would require planes and equipment though does he? What he claims to do is post information - it isn't all stuff he has done himself -

I’m not a scientist, or a meteorologist, but I like to think that what I post is comprised of independently verifiable facts.

So you are perfectly free to go and look at it & verify it yourself too.

How about all the links on the site to papers and studies that do use such equipment? You don't have to have done the science to link to it!

And of course you'd have to say the same thing would go for all the "chemtrail evidence" too - i'm sure you apply the same criteria for what constitutes science to them.........you do that don't you??

Sad world you chemtrail deniers live in.

Not at all - we are happy to know that there is no-one out there trying to poison us.

I can't imagine how it might be thinking that the very air you breath has been doctored to decrease you fertility, or make the whole world colder or hotter, or poison plants or help create earthquakes, or whichever version of the chemtrail hoax it is you believe in. THAT would be a sad world!!

Presumably you all wear gas masks all the time too, to stop all these nefarious effects?? That must be uncomfortable!

reply to post by dplum517


So, then you can link to all of the peer-reviewed journal articles that prove once and for all that chemtrails exist. Also, could you please provide your dissertation? I assume you have your PhD. you are criticizing someone else for stating something without being a PhD.

reply to post by dplum517


Well I can say he is more of an authority than you or I. Just check out this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's very interesting.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker

Facts are facts, you just have to be mature enough to admit when you're wrong.

And you are exactly right. If the undeniable proof were to be shown and verified you would get debunkers admitting that they were wrong,and I am one of those. The main problem is no solid evidence has been brought to the table that cannot be debunked. All we ask is for scientific and physical proof of existance, that's all.