What muslims really think about Terrorism, Democracy and the West

reply to post by ZforZionism


You know what? I am both against zionism and muslim extremism. How your simplistic brackets ideology deals with that?

reply to post by Maslo


I was going to respond but I just realized you posted utter nonsense for some reason.

Did you know 75% statistics are made up on the spot? No but seriously you will have extremists in every religion, group or faction.

Originally posted by Adurna
No but seriously you will have extremists in every religion, group or faction.

The point is finding more precise figures so that ideologues can stop claiming that 99% or 1% are extremists.

reply to post by Imhotepsol

You absolute ignoramus

your idiocy

Wow an insult! bahahahah you will have to do a lot better than that! Remember you started with the personal insults because your argument is tremendously floored. bahahahahah really! Siding with terrorists. Says a lot does it not! Proves you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute! Zero!

I would not call them terrorists because they were fighting for their independence from a foreign power.

Have your ever not looked at the definition of terorrist? "Fair Dinkum" the fear they placed in the innocent British people (as well as their own) defies comprehension! yet you try to defend these cowardly mongrel animals? Speaks volumes!

and await your predicable yet sadly assured reply.

bahahahah! Your reply was as as predictable as it comes when defending Northern Irish terrorists! Pot calling the kettle black is it not!? Bahahahahah

Most definably the terrorist actions of this group and actions by cowards like Bobby Sands and Michael Collins (to name a few) need to be mentioned in the same breath as the statistics mentioned by the OP! bahahah!

WHAT IS A MUSLIM EXTREMIST?

DEFINE IT.

Originally posted by ZforZionism
WHAT IS A MUSLIM EXTREMIST?

DEFINE IT.

A muslim that believes that islam claims that harming either adulterers, apostates, women or gays is acceptable, or a muslim that believes intentionaly killing civilians is acceptable to achieve percieved islamic goals.

There are hundreds of millions of them.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The point is finding more precise figures so that ideologues can stop claiming that 99% or 1% are extremists.

If that's the goal than you should really be looking a bit more critical at those statistics that you posted!!

I look at it this way, conspiracy theorist are a particular demographic as well. Suppose some survey had to include representation by this group. Let's assume the total group size is such that they need 1 out of every 100.000. ATS has some 234,074 members so we can pick, at random, 2 posters that will now respresent our entire community............see what I'm getting at here?

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


That reasoning is fallacious, thats not how statistics work. If you pick 2 people from 1 000 you will have far less statistical accuracy than when you pick 2000 from 1 000 000, even when the relative ratio is the same. Generally, a good sample above 700 is enough to draw meaningful conclusions, almost regardless of the total number of people, assuming the sample represents them well (which is the case of you look in the PDFs, they even say sample is a bit biased to urban population which is more liberal than rural, so in reality the ratio of extremists may be even higher).

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by operation mindcrime

 

That reasoning is fallacious, thats not how statistics work. If you pick 2 people from 1 000 you will have far less statistical accuracy than when you pick 2000 from 1 000 000, even when the relative ratio is the same.

I know how statistics work, I was merely giving a simplified excample of how a perceived group with common features are not always as uniform as expected.

A 1000 Egyptians were polled out of the 82.000.000..... What accuracy? If we do not know which formula they used to select representatives for each perceived group, how can we accept the data to be correct?

Unless you have the full inside story on how they selected the people that provide the data for these statistics, they show nothing.

Generally, a good sample above 700 is enough to draw meaningful conclusions, almost regardless of the total number of people, assuming the sample represents them well

Assuming?? That's not very reassuring when talking about exact numbers, is it?

(which is the case of you look in the PDFs, they even say sample is a bit biased to urban population which is more liberal than rural, so in reality the ratio of extremists may be even higher).

Actually what they say is:

The table below shows the margin of sampling error based on all interviews conducted in that
country. For results based on the full sample in a given country, one can say with 95% confidence that the
error attributable to sampling and other random effects is plus or minus the margin of error. In addition to
sampling error, one should bear in mind that question wording and practical difficulties in conducting
surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of opinion polls.

Let's look at all those other survey's that say the same (still waiting for Sky) and maybe than we can carefully start to draw some conclusions.

Peace

Originally posted by Maslo
A muslim that believes that islam claims that harming either adulterers, apostates, women or gays is acceptable, or a muslim that believes intentionaly killing civilians is acceptable to achieve percieved islamic goals.

Following your own personal and completely baseless definition of ''extremism'', then there are hundreds of millions of Christian extremists, based on the number of Christian countries which, by popular support, harm gays by criminalising homosexuality and forcing gay people to live in fear.

Originally posted by Maslo
There are hundreds of millions of them.

So you keep claiming. Based on one poll in which the results correlated with your pre-conceived fear-based views of Islam.

I accept that there are probably large numbers of people in certain Muslim countries who approve of the death-penalty for adultery and apostasy, and chopping off thieves' hands, but these are clearly religious-based cultural views, rather than pan-Islamic views. Many people in these cultures have probably held those views for centuries, so why are you suddenly panicking about it now ?

Are you really worried about Islamic extremism ? Or is that just the excuse you use to hide the fact that you are fearful about people from an alien and faraway culture coming to your part of the world soon ?

If it's the latter, then that would make you the dictionary-definition of an ''Islamophobe''.

Since you like your polls, here is a report from the Prague Post, which mentions the interesting results of a survey conducted in 2009:

56% of Slovakians favour a ban on building mosques in their country

I would say that opposing religious freedom is a hallmark of an ''extremist'' position, so it looks like the majority of your compatriots, according to this poll, are also those extremists which you claim to be so fearful of...

reply to post by operation mindcrime

Let's look at all those other survey's that say the same (still waiting for Sky) and maybe than we can carefully start to draw some conclusions.

en.wikipedia.org...

A survey carried out by the Indonesia Survey Institute found that 43% of Indonesians support Rajam or stoning for adulterers.[37]

This independent survey conducted by the Indonesian Survey Institute shows almost the same number as Pew Global survey. Now you have two. How much do you want?

Unless you have the full inside story on how they selected the people that provide the data for these statistics, they show nothing.

Rejecting legit evidence that is not agreeing with your worldview.. The surveys seem legit, and therefore the burden of proof to show they are not is on you. But believe what you want.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

Following your own personal and completely baseless definition of ''extremism'', then there are hundreds of millions of Christian extremists, based on the number of Christian countries which, by popular support, harm gays by criminalising homosexuality and forcing gay people to live in fear.

Where is homosexuality criminalised today?

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, the christians in orange and red countries are also extremists (altrough still most of them are muslim countries).

So, what is your definition of extremism? Is holding views that are against basic human rights not extremist?

I accept that there are probably large numbers of people in certain Muslim countries who approve of the death-penalty for adultery and apostasy, and chopping off thieves' hands, but these are clearly religious-based cultural views, rather than pan-Islamic views. Many people in these cultures have probably held those views for centuries, so why are you suddenly panicking about it now ?

Are you really worried about Islamic extremism ? Or is that just the excuse you use to hide the fact that you are fearful about people from an alien and faraway culture coming to your part of the world soon ?

Yes thats the difference. They are now flooding europe in large numbers, contrary to history when they did not. So now their extremism is becoming our problem. And stop with the strawmans. I have nothing against moderate muslims, only the extremists. Its like saying people who were afraid of nazi expansion were just using it as excuse to hide the fact that they did not like Beethoven. That is ridiculous, like the whole political correctness notion, painting everyone who points out facts as islamophobe.

If it's the latter, then that would make you the dictionary-definition of an ''Islamophobe''.

"Phobia" is defined as irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about being afraid of huge influx of people from which majority hold nazi-like opinions. That is perfectly rational fear.

I would say that opposing religious freedom is a hallmark of an ''extremist'' position, so it looks like the majority of your compatriots, according to this poll, are also those extremists which you claim to be so fearful of...

Yes, we also have some nationalist extremists here, and I dont agree with them. The solution is to stop massive immigration, not to restrict religious freedoms.
Still, are you comparing banning of minarets to stoning adulterers or killing apostates? Thats apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Maslo
en.wikipedia.org...

A survey carried out by the Indonesia Survey Institute found that 43% of Indonesians support Rajam or stoning for adulterers.[37]

This independent survey conducted by the Indonesian Survey Institute shows almost the same number as Pew Global survey. Now you have two. How much do you want?

You are talking about this survey?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1190aa63b386.jpg[/atsimg]

Here's a rough translation for those that do not speak Indonesian.... ( )

ploisi jilbab = policy on headscarves
Rajam = stoning
Perempuan dilarang jadi presiden = Women are prohibited from becoming president
polisi muhrim = policy on Muhrim
bunga bank dilarang = bank interest is prohibited
pemilu umtuk ajaran islam = election to the teachings of Islam
hukum potong tangan = law of cutting off hands

setuju = agree
tidak setuju = disagree
tidak tahu = do not know

How does this relate to Skyfloating's statistics? We were going for identical, not "kinda the same". Just for fun I'll post 'm again and you can point out where they are identical,okay?



[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/138b64123b40.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/733f98d73f4e.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/99f1746b735a.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4ec2f74a2f0e.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4ab2e53efc05.png[/atsimg]

Just for the heck of it, I downloaded the entire survey .pdf you provided, busy translating... (pfffff)

Rejecting legit evidence that is not agreeing with your worldview.. The surveys seem legit, and therefore the burden of proof to show they are not is on you. But believe what you want.

edit on 6/7/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

See that bolded word in your text? The "seem" part.......... I feel no need to proof your ignorance any further.

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

How does this relate to Skyfloating's statistics? We were going for identical, not "kinda the same". Just for fun I'll post 'm again and you can point out where they are identical,okay?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/900a2d441c6e.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c68b6847a3f9.jpg[/atsimg]

Notice % of indonesians who support stoning of adulterers. 42% in Pew Survey and 43% in ISI survey. That seems to be in pretty good agreement, doesnt it? The same with cutting hands of thieves.

reply to post by Maslo

Because you have found a similarity between two different survey's does not automatically validate one or both survey's, right?

Let us compare the view on democracy between the two survey's

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c32a68cf04e2.jpg[/atsimg]

compared to...



(I'm not even gonna translate the first graph....) 32% prefer a non-democratic government according to one survey, while the other claims it's only 12%......That is one heck of a discrepancy, wouldn't you say?

See we're both cherry picking to proof a point which proofs my point about the worth of these statistics.

I like this game, let's both pick another graph....

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Thats not entirely the same question. One deals with support for islam in politics, the other with democracy/dictatorship.

democracy =/= secular government (islamic government can be democraticaly elected and maintained if majority wants it)

non-democratic government =/= islamic government (non-democratic government can also include secular dictatorships like communist dictatorship, pro-western secular dictatorship like was in Egypt etc..)

Originally posted by Maslo
Where is homosexuality criminalised today?

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes, the christians in orange and red countries are also extremists (altrough still most of them are muslim countries).

Male homosexuality is illegal in 33 majority Christian countries:

Angola, Antigua & Barbuda, Barbados, Belize, Botswana, Burundi, Dominica, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Jamaica, Kenya, Kiribati, Lesotho, Malawi, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, St. Kitts/Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, Samoa, Seychelles, Solomon Islands, Swaziland, Tonga, Trinidad & Tobago, Tuvalu, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Furthermore, according to a 2007 survey conducted by Pew ( your favourite research centre ), non-acceptance of homosexuality is prevalent in a number of predominantly Christian countries:

94%+ of Ugandans, Ghanaians, Ethiopians and Kenyans believe that homosexuality should not be accepted in society, while 60%+ of Russians, Ukrainians and South Africans also think that society should not accept gay people. 41% of Americans polled also expressed this belief...

Originally posted by Maslo
So, what is your definition of extremism? Is holding views that are against basic human rights not extremist?

Well, extremism is a concept which is very hard to define objectively. Broadly speaking, I would say that it would be defined as forcibly imposing your beliefs or ideologies onto others. The problem being that all of us are extremists in that way. I certainly have no qualms about society forcing people to behave in a certain way, such as imprisoning people who transgress laws which I think are reasonable.

While you or I may think that executing adulterers is rather harsh, I wouldn't say that people who support the practice are necessarily ''extremists'', if they are from a particular region or country where that law has been ingrained in their social code for centuries. It doesn't follow that people who support the death penalty for adulterers and apostates are going to hold extreme views about anything or everything else.

Originally posted by Maslo
Yes thats the difference. They are now flooding europe in large numbers, contrary to history when they did not. So now their extremism is becoming our problem. And stop with the strawmans. I have nothing against moderate muslims, only the extremists. Its like saying people who were afraid of nazi expansion were just using it as excuse to hide the fact that they did not like Beethoven.

That is ridiculous, like the whole political correctness notion, painting everyone who points out facts as islamophobe.

So, in other words, I was correct in my assumption that your views about Muslim extremism largely stems from your concern that they may start coming to your little corner of the world, rather than a genuine worry about extremism from a humanitarian perspective.

The majority of British Muslims are of Pakistani and Bangladeshi descent. Those countries that you claim have a majority of ''extremists'' because of that poll. Yet, to my knowledge, nobody has ever been stoned to death or had their hand chopped off recently in Britain. So, why are you making a connection between people endorsing these practices in their own country and them emigrating to European countries where this is behaviour is not tolerated by society or the law ?

''Moderate Muslims'' is usually a code for Westernised Muslims, such as those from Albania, ex-Yugoslavia and Turkey. ie. ''Muslims who dress, speak and behave in a similar way to me''. Those who ''graciously'' accept others solely because they are likely to blend into their homogeneous, monocultural wet-dream, do not get a pat on the back from me !

Originally posted by Maslo
"Phobia" is defined as irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about being afraid of huge influx of people from which majority hold nazi-like opinions. That is perfectly rational fear.

You do have an irrational fear. You come from a country with only a handful of Muslims, and you are terrified of them coming into your country because of fear-mongering stories and reports in the media.

We have over 2 million Muslims in Britain; people aren't being stoned to death or killed for renouncing their Islamic faith.

Originally posted by Maslo
Yes, we also have some nationalist extremists here, and I dont agree with them. The solution is to stop massive immigration, not to restrict religious freedoms.
Still, are you comparing banning of minarets to stoning adulterers or killing apostates? Thats apples and oranges.

No, I'm pointing out that, according to that poll, a majority of your citizens support a ban on the building of one religion's place of worship ( not just minarets ). Freedom of religion is often considered a human right, yet it appears that many Slovakians hold ''extreme'' views that go against this basic tenet of human rights philosophy.

All I'm saying is that before you start pointing fingers at people elsewhere for being ''extremists'', perhaps you should look closer to home before getting overly concerned about those in far-flung countries...

Or, in other words, ''those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones''.

reply to post by Maslo

I stand corrected. You are indeed right about the difference between these two graphs...

How about this one?



and this one

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/137cf1fe63c6.jpg[/atsimg]

See this second graph comes from the same institute that generated the statistics which we are currently discussing.

ISLAMIC EXTREMISM: COMMON CONCERN FOR MUSLIM AND WESTERN PUBLICS

Now you may argue that the preferability of a democracy is not the same as the workability of a democracy but how about this one...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1190aa63b386.jpg[/atsimg]
ploisi jilbab = policy on headscarves

compared to

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d882dc60a15d.jpg[/atsimg]

Now how can 63% of the Indonesian population be against the ban on headscarve while at the same time 95% of the Indionesian population is against the ban on headscarves??

I know why.........I put the reason for this discrepancy in bold. (can you find it??)

...

That's right, one survey is from 2005 (PEW global survey) and the other (the one you provided, from the Indonesia Survey Institute) is from 2007.

So getting back to your ealier statement:

This independent survey conducted by the Indonesian Survey Institute shows almost the same number as Pew Global survey. Now you have two. How much do you want?

Please present a survey (pref. more than one but I'll take what you got..) from an institute not related to the PEW, from 2010 (!!!).

Or better yet, don't. I'm kinda done with this subject.

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime

Please present a survey (pref. more than one but I'll take what you got..) from an institute not related to the PEW, from 2010 (!!!). That's right, one survey is from 2005 (PEW global survey) and the other (the one you provided, from the Indonesia Survey Institute) is from 2007.

Whats your point? I dont understand. Why are those years a problem? And why do you demand a survey from 2010?

Now how can 63% of the Indonesian population be against the ban on headscarve while at the same time 95% of the Indionesian population is against the ban on headscarves?? I know why.........I put the reason for this discrepancy in bold. (can you find it??)

Again, policy on headscarves =/= banning of headscarves. Maybe it was making them mandatory in the ISI survey. That way it makes sense.