Arizona Wins Immigration Suit!

Originally posted by Night Star

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Night Star
That all of a sudden we have to speak Spanish to get a job, when we were never forced to speak another language to get a job before, well that shows there is a problem.

Because we have actually evolved instead of regressed.

Fits in the same category of Public Schools not having Christmas anymore - - - but respecting the diversity of American citizens.

Evolved by seperating people with language instead of uniting them?

In any case, as you can see by the numbers of the States that have already proclaimed english as their primary language and others fighting for the same, I guess they're all dumb and unevolved.

You keep saying that. That people are separated by language. Sounds like an excuse to me.

Too bad America was meant to be a country of diversity welcoming all culture - - AND their language.

Yes - - I definitely find it to be regression of what America is supposed to be.

I find it a convenience for white male corporate dominance.

Originally posted by Night Star
Bottom line for me is that all cultures who come here to live, learn and speak english. It is the one language that ties us all together and I don't see anything wrong with that.

I don't really see anything wrong with it either but as you yourself said you can't expect fresh off the boat immigrants to pick english up either. I mean you claim to have a hard time with languages so why hold that against them.

Now the point I was making was that I didn't really see this "the US needs to change for the illegals" you say exists. I know there is this chicano, La Raza movement that spouts that rhetoric but I think it's overcompensation for the attitude of earlier hispanic immigrants.

I know that when my cousin visited me and could only say a few phrases in spanish she told me that she felt cheated because her parents never bothered to teach her. I could totally see her identifying with the idea that she was stripped of her heritage and maybe go overboard with trying to get back to her roots. But I don't see this any different that what ever other activity young adults get into to give their life some depth like becoming a vegetarian, try to save the whales or protest war.

From what I have seen and experienced, there was nothing more wonderful and heartwarming than when all our cultures were together and spoke one language and understood and appreciated each other at work. We sung songs in different languages, learned each other swear words and spoke in one language. We laughed together, we shared our lives in many ways. we shared our recipes, our jokes, our songs, our life stories. But when the hispanics kept going back to speaking spanish then the africans and asians and indians and myself would just talk amongst ourselves or were quiet. We were outnumbered. lol If you want to blame me for that so be it.

Originally posted by Night Star
From what I have seen and experienced, there was nothing more wonderful and heartwarming than when all our cultures were together and spoke one language and understood and appreciated each other at work.

Could you explain exactly what you are talking about?

Its not clear.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Night Star
From what I have seen and experienced, there was nothing more wonderful and heartwarming than when all our cultures were together and spoke one language and understood and appreciated each other at work.

Could you explain exactly what you are talking about?

Its not clear.

Where I used to work, we had a diverse mix of cultures. They each had their own languages but spoke english too. Since we were always in mixed company and everyone knew english we were able to converse, and enjoy each others company.

Originally posted by Night Star

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Night Star
From what I have seen and experienced, there was nothing more wonderful and heartwarming than when all our cultures were together and spoke one language and understood and appreciated each other at work.

Could you explain exactly what you are talking about?

Its not clear.

Where I used to work, we had a diverse mix of cultures. They each had their own languages but spoke english too. Since we were always in mixed company and everyone knew english we were able to converse, and enjoy each others company.

But you felt left out and a bit uncomfortable when they spoke amongst themselves in their language.

reply to post by Annee


If you love spanish so much, you are quite welcome to LEAVE THE USA and go to Mexico! We speak English, PERIOD! There is NO justification to require the majority of Americans to learn a third world language, NO JUSTIFICATION! And our government should NOT be offering anything in any other language, PERIOD! If you want to be a citizen, then learn the language. Otherwise, go home!

All arguements and debate aside, lets look at some facts where language is concerned, shall we?

Annee, you would have us all learn Spanish as you see it as the 'official' language of Mexico in so much as then we could communicate with illegal and legal immigrants from our southern border. Well, I did some checking into this as I was curious as to what exactly the 'official' language of Mexico, in particular, was. Here is what I found...

Mexico has a significant linguistic diversity. In addition to Spanish, the government recognizes 68 indigenous Amerindian languages as national languages. According to the Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples (CDI) and National Institute of Indigenous Languages [INALI], while 9.8% of the population claims or is said to belong to an indigenous group, only 5.4% speak an indigenous language.

Spanish is the de facto language spoken by the vast majority of Mexicans, though the Mexican government does not legislate it as an official language. Nonetheless, the second article of the 1917 Constitution defines the country as multicultural, recognizes the right of the indigenous peoples to "preserve and enrich their languages" and promotes "bilingual and intercultural education".

Wiki Source

Notice in the 2nd paragraph above it states that "Spanish is the de facto language spoken by the vast majority of Mexicans" De Facto is defined as:

De facto (English pronunciation: /diː ˈfæktoʊ/, /deɪ/[1]) is a Latin expression that means "by [the] fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established."

Emphasis mine.

De Facto Wiki Source

So in following this train of thought, English would be the 'de facto' language of the US, as Spanish is to Mexico neither one being an 'offical' language of the respective country. If I were to move to Mexico, or any place else, I would bother to learn the language commonly recognized as the language of the land as not only a sign of respect to the nation I want to call home, but as a means of being able to navigate around the country and to understand the laws governing that land.

You say time and time again that the citizens of the US should learn Spanish in order to communicate with Mexicans who come to this country legally or otherwise. But what of the other immigrants that come to this country as well? Shall we then learn Chinese, Mardarin, Tagalog, Arabic, Russian etc. etc.? No, and I honestly do not see immigrants from other countries clammoring for us to learn their languages as I have many associates and aquaintances from other countries. They recognize English as the language of the land THEY HAVE CHOSEN to immigrate to and have adopted it as their own while keeping their native tongue alive and well within their communities.

I'm not seeing anyone on this thread, or any other thread on this topic, asking for any immigrant to forsake their culture, heritage or language to live like an "American" (American to be defined how you see fit). As you, Annee, have stated prior America is a melting pot of different nationalities, cultures and ideologies. That is how this country has always been and always should be. However, should I ever decide to immigrate to Mexico I'm fairly confident in saying that instead of me demanding the citizens of that country to accommodate me by learning English, it would be the other way around in that they would ask me to accommodate them by learning their language as it should be. It's called respect (which is a 2 way street), and that is all I am asking for.

reply to post by MyMindIsMyOwn


When I tried to explain how other all cultures have learned english out of respect to their new country, I get called stupid and unevolved.

reply to post by haarvik


If someone wants to speak spanish they have to leave the land of the free?

I have no problem with making the official language english but in the real world there would still be a need for communication in foreign languages in the US and not just spanish.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by haarvik

 

If someone wants to speak spanish they have to leave the land of the free?

I have no problem with making the official language english but in the real world there would still be a need for communication in foreign languages in the US and not just spanish.

It was when I saw ads for simple factory jobs that required someone to be bilingual that I saw a problem. When I inquired as to why one had to speak spanish the reply was that "Most of our employees speak it." Hmmmmm, red flag goes up. Must be a lot of illegals. Why wasn't there a diviersity of cultures there? Makes you wonder.

Many people all across the USA have complained that they had to be bilingual in order to get hired. With millions of people being unemployed and now the added frustration of being forced to speak a foreign language in order to provide for their families...wow! I would never ever expect another country to have to speak my langauge just to work in a darned factory.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by Annee

 

If you love spanish so much, you are quite welcome to LEAVE THE USA and go to Mexico! We speak English, PERIOD! There is NO justification to require the majority of Americans to learn a third world language, NO JUSTIFICATION! And our government should NOT be offering anything in any other language, PERIOD! If you want to be a citizen, then learn the language. Otherwise, go home!

I grew up in Los Angeles. Try it some time.

Mexico is our neighbor. Didn't know Mexico was a 3rd world country.

I am home - - my family has been here since the 1700s. How about yours?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by Annee

 

If you love spanish so much, you are quite welcome to LEAVE THE USA and go to Mexico! We speak English, PERIOD! There is NO justification to require the majority of Americans to learn a third world language, NO JUSTIFICATION! And our government should NOT be offering anything in any other language, PERIOD! If you want to be a citizen, then learn the language. Otherwise, go home!

I grew up in Los Angeles. Try it some time.

Mexico is our neighbor. Didn't know Mexico was a 3rd world country.





I am home - - my family has been here since the 1700s. How about yours?

With most people being of mixed heritage, how would you expect them to answer that? I myself am native american indian, french and irish. Are you saying that only a part of me has a right to be here?

Originally posted by MyMindIsMyOwn
All arguements and debate aside, lets look at some facts where language is concerned, shall we?

Annee, you would have us all learn Spanish as you see it as the 'official' language of Mexico in so much as then we could communicate with illegal and legal immigrants from our southern border. Well, I did some checking into this as I was curious as to what exactly the 'official' language of Mexico, in particular, was.

I am well aware of the diversity of language in Mexico.

Interesting that you place "illegal" first in mentioning immigrants. Those of Mexican ancestry and language were here in this land long before any English speaking invader ever set foot.

I value myself. I would be a better person with the ability to speak a second language. Respect is a 2-way street.

And - - before anyone pulls out the - - - "should we learn Native American?"

They are not as prominent or wide spread as Spanish (and its many variations) - - which is spoken in many countries around the world.

They should certainly be preserved as an important part of American culture.

Native Languages of the Americas: Preserving and promoting American Indian languages

www.native-languages.org...

Originally posted by Annee

I am well aware of the diversity of language in Mexico.

Then interesting that while you wished to downplay the English language in the US as the de facto 'official' language, you at the same time failed to mention Spanish as the de facto 'official' language in Mexico. Let's debate on an equal playing feild next time, shall we?

Interesting that you place "illegal" first in mentioning immigrants. Those of Mexican ancestry and language were here in this land long before any English speaking invader ever set foot.

Yes, 'illegal' was mentioned first because, correct me if I am wrong, we are debating the issue of illegal immigration into the US, not legal immigration. No one is arguing the point that people of Mexican ancestry and language were here on what is now, US soil, long before any English speaking invader ever set foot. On topic of todays issues however, how is this relavent as they are not here illegally?

I value myself. I would be a better person with the ability to speak a second language. Respect is a 2-way street.

I value myself as well. I would encourage anyone to learn a second language. I myself speak 2 others in addition to American English. Again, I agree that respect is a 2 way street and if folks want to come to the US, great I am all for it! But respect the country in which you desire to become a part of.

reply to post by MyMindIsMyOwn


The de facto language in the US is in fact english. But it doesn't mean that you have to speak it. Many turist spots in mexico hire english speaking personnel to cater to their english speaking customers. The fact that the de facto law is spanish doesn't make it illegal for these businesses to turn away those that don't speak english.

Originally posted by MyMindIsMyOwn

Originally posted by Annee

I am well aware of the diversity of language in Mexico.

Then interesting that while you wished to downplay the English language in the US as the de facto 'official' language, you at the same time failed to mention Spanish as the de facto 'official' language in Mexico. Let's debate on an equal playing feild next time, shall we?

I downplayed the English language? When exactly did I do that.

English is the dominant language in America. It just isn't the only one in every day use - - in most states - - if not all.

I didn't know we were discussing the laws of Mexico.

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by MyMindIsMyOwn

 

When I tried to explain how other all cultures have learned english out of respect to their new country, I get called stupid and unevolved.

You also pointed out that in some cases it wasn't that they couldn't but that they chose not to.

Now this is in fact rude but it's not going to change even if english is made the official language.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by MyMindIsMyOwn

 

The de facto language in the US is in fact english. But it doesn't mean that you have to speak it. Many turist spots in mexico hire english speaking personnel to cater to their english speaking customers. The fact that the de facto law is spanish doesn't make it illegal for these businesses to turn away those that don't speak english.

And while I respect that opinion, tourism and illegal immigration are 2 different issues. I applaud Mexican businesses for employing english speaking people, it boosts their tourism revenue.

However, for the sake of arguement, if I were to go to another country to live I would be expected to have a firm grasp of the most commonly used language and immigrate to that country in accordance of the laws in place. If I choose to ignore both then I deserve what punishment comes my way. Because this is what would be expected of me in an immigration situation, this is in turn what I expect of others coming into the US. Seems simple to me.