Continental Freemasonry

why do masons deny the fact that in europe there are append-ant bodies of freemasonry that have degrees that go far beyond 33? alot arnt aware but some are incredibly knowledgeable and must know. please someone enlighten me. i have asked quite a few masons on this topic and they all deny it. is it like the new mystical thing? since now everyone knows about the 33rd degree? its all being exposed.

reply to post by lucysadvocate


I've never known anyone to outright deny this. Most just don't care. It's not particularly important to their Masonic experience.

I also don't know of anyone who thought the 33rd degree was a secret. It's in the name of the Scottish Rite headquarters.

I never said it was a secret just that in the past it wasnt something every high schooler was talking about

reply to post by lucysadvocate

Are any of them recognized or considered regular Masonry? What group do they belong to? Our degree system was never a secret.

Are you talking about Memphis-Misriam? That's a European degree system of some sort but I think it's pretty much dead now. My father was a Freemason, and he said some of the European lodges practiced that system in the old days but they had "phased it out" (whatever that means).

Im mostly reffering to the memphis and mizraim, but also egyptian freemasonry, im sure there are others, The ritual involved in the degrees is kept secret, i refuse to believe that everything is exposed by masonic authors themselves in it entirety

The first thing you need to do is realize that higher numbers don't really mean any thing. It's really not a measure of rank or knowledge or anything of the sort. The other rites, including Egyptian Rite, are just areas of further study. It's like taking electives in school. Just because you join one or another doesn't make you better or worse than anyone who didn't take that particular path. There are literally hundreds of Masonic degrees that have been conferred at various points around the world in the last 300-500 years. Some are still in use, some have gone stagnant. Some are wide-spread, some are particular to a certain lodge. There's really not any one codified system that can define or represent all of Masonry, because it's not a centralized organization.

I could spend my whole life studying the 33 degrees of the Scottish Rite Southern Jurisdiction if I wanted. Or the York Rite system. Or Memphis Mizraim. Or any number of other systems. Hell, I could probably spend the rest of my life simply reflecting on the lessons of the three degrees of the blue lodge. It's a bottomless well of information...

reply to post by lucysadvocate


I am pretty sure that any groups that belong to mainstream masonry only go up to 33. Other groups are considered irregular or clandestine. They exist, but most regular masons probably don't know about them. I know I didn't until I came here and poked around for a while.

As Freemasonry has existed since time immemorial it follows that the number of degrees are so numerous that the stars in the sky would not suffice to grasp their amount.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by lucysadvocate

 

I am pretty sure that any groups that belong to mainstream masonry only go up to 33. Other groups are considered irregular or clandestine. They exist, but most regular masons probably don't know about them. I know I didn't until I came here and poked around for a while.

Yes, thank you, that is what I was sort of trying to get at....

I talked to my dad a few hours ago on the phone and asked him about this because the topic got my interest. He is not a high-ranking Mason but has some interest in the history and culture of the group, He said there are probably some "legitimate" people left in certain lodges in Europe and maybe a few in the US who are in these kinds of groups, but they are basically considered irregular for the last few decades at least.

im aware that that numbers mean not a thing, Im just saying that most masons deny there is anything beyond the 33rd, which is simply not true there are many more degrees one could go through to learn more, Im a demolay myself so I have a more than basic knowledge of the system. what are some of the other organizations that are considered irregular in the United states not anyway influenced by prince hall because I know there are plenty of those.

Originally posted by lucysadvocate
im aware that that numbers mean not a thing, Im just saying that most masons deny there is anything beyond the 33rd, which is simply not true there are many more degrees one could go through to learn more

Well that's because there is nothing beyond the 33rd in the Scottish Rite. Just as there's nothing beyond the 13th(?) in the York Rite (not that they number theirs.) Or nothing beyond the one in the Shrine. Or nothing beyond the 99 in the Rite of Memphis & Mizriam.

and the memphis and mizraim rites are mostly phased out in the US?

Originally posted by lucysadvocate
and the memphis and mizraim rites are mostly phased out in the US?

Yes. Their ritual has been preserved by the Grand College of Rites, but they are no longer performed in mainstream Masonry in the US. Many saw the system as degree peddling.

I haven't really explored the Grand College of Rites, so I don't know what they've published or what materials from old rituals is available in print.

reply to post by lucysadvocate


The point I was trying to make was that in regular masonry, there is no degree higher than 33. In clandestine masonry, there is more, as with Memphis Misriam. That is not to say that clandestine masonry is wrong, or bad, just not recognized by the UGLE. So any regular mason saying that there is no degree above 33 would be correct in my opinion.

though any regular mason most likely wouldnt tell every one of his brothers that he was involved in some irregular form of masonry, would being involved in memphis and mizraim make a mason not fit for masonic conversation and such because he is involved in clandestine masonry?

Originally posted by lucysadvocate
though any regular mason most likely wouldnt tell every one of his brothers that he was involved in some irregular form of masonry, would being involved in memphis and mizraim make a mason not fit for masonic conversation and such because he is involved in clandestine masonry?

My understanding is that any Mason affiliating with an organization (that has a prerequisite of its members being Masons) not recognized by the Grand Lodge of his state would be in violation of their constitution & bylaws and would open himself up to facing Masonic charges brought against him, the highest penalty of which being expulsion from Masonry.

reply to post by JoshNorton


Interestingly I think one can be affiliated with the OTO (based on M&M) and retain affiliation with a regular Lodge.

My Freemasonic Lodge would be considered "irregular" but we practice the 33 degrees of AASR. Other Lodges we are in amity with do practice Memphis and Misraim.

BTW Masonic Communication is define as the communication occurring during or about ritual. The "regular" Freemasons aren't forbidden from conversing with "irregular" Freemasons, they may even discuss Freemasonry but they can't discuss the secrets (SWT).

reply to post by no1smootha


Do you guys have a separate place for the AASR or is it in the same building?

reply to post by network dude


In my obedience, the higher degrees are held in the same buildings as the Symbolic Lodges. In addition to the Symbolic Lodge, the AASR consists of the Lodge of Perfection, Chapter of Rose Croix, Lodge of Perfecton and Consistitory. The AASR isn't an appendent body as it is in the USA. Only the 4th, 9th, 14th, 18th, 28th, 30th through 33rd are required to be conferred. I should add that it takes years to ascend through the higher degrees so it is possible to be an 18th degree Mason and those who are in the Consistitory have considerable seniority.