Atheism starts with an illogical premise

Originally posted by NeverSleepingEyes

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Atheism is truly illogical and doesn't make any sense. An Atheist will say they lack a belief in God or gods but this position doesn't make any sense.

You don't have a lack of belief in Santa Claus or a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy. Why do you need to have a lack of belief in an entity that you say doesn't exist? You don't see Toothfairiest who have a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy.

You can have a lack of belief in Islam or Christianity but not a lack of belief in God because there's no need to have a lack of belief in an entity you say doesn't exist.

In order for Atheist to say they have a lack of belief in God they implicitly acknowledge God's existence. Your lack of belief in God has to be predicated on his existence or it's just illogical.

Again, there's no need to have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or The Wicked Witch of the West if you say they don't exist. So Atheism is built on an illogical premise.

I'm an atheist.
I can't but agree with your statement. I wouldn't call it "illogical" though. This inherent contradiction in the label we use to talk about ourselves (atheists) kept me thinking until I decided "yeah, well, what the f*ck, it's just that: a label.
(while i write this, more thoughts are coming up, trying to explain where the contradiction comes from. As I don't have the time to elaborate on that, let's put it this way: the label we use reflects the fact that basically we are being confronted with a concept introduced by others (theism) and that we as a consequence reject (a). Doesn't sound too convincing, it's the best I can come up with now.)
I'm still an atheist. A bad one.

At least your honest and I can respect that.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You don't have a lack of belief in Santa Claus or a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy.

Do you still believe they exist?

You can have a lack of belief in Islam or Christianity but not a lack of belief in God [...]

It's not that Atheists don't believe an idea of God exists; rather, him existing in the way a Theist would claim.

In order for Atheist to say they have a lack of belief in God they implicitly acknowledge God's existence. Your lack of belief in God has to be predicated on his existence or it's just illogical.

Not so. When someone asserts they don't believe in a deity, they are addressing the deity as a hypothetical entity, not deliberately acknowledging their literal existence as claimed by a Theist.

Again, there's no need to have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or The Wicked Witch of the West if you say they don't exist. So Atheism is built on an illogical premise.

You're working off some pretty flawed logic, yourself. I'd be more careful throwing the word "illogical" around if I were you...

reply to post by Matrix Rising

Nope, the Tooth Fairy is an imaginary construct of the human mind and so is Santa and Tinkerbell, yet you don't hear them saying they have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or Santa.

This is because it's illogical to have a lack of belief in an entity that you say doesn't exist. You can have a lack of belief in a religion because you don't question the religions existence.

So, it makes no sense for Atheist to have a lack of belief in God who they say doesn't exist.

I think I am starting to follow what you are trying to say, but I still fail to see where the "illogic" comes into play.

By convention among adults, it is agreed the Tooth Fairy, etc, are imaginary constructs of the human mind, therefore it is redundant to claim a lack of belief in them.

It is an implicit belief of adults that the Tooth fairy doesn't exist, so there is no need to state the lack of belief explicitly.

However, when it comes to belief in God, many humans do believe in the objective existence of God, so it becomes necessary to qualify a belief or lack of belief in God.

This all comes down to convention and redundancy, not logic.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


a lack of belief isnt the same as having a belief system. atheism isnt a belief system. they dont believe they have a lack of belief. there is no system involved. atheism is not a religion they dont have rituals or anything. i dont think you know the difference between having a belief and having a belief system because they are not the same thing

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by mysticnoon

 

Nope, the Tooth Fairy is an imaginary construct of the human mind and so is Santa and Tinkerbell, yet you don't hear them saying they have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or Santa.
This is because it's illogical to have a lack of belief in an entity that you say doesn't exist. You can have a lack of belief in a religion because you don't question the religions existence.
So, it makes no sense for Atheist to have a lack of belief in God who they say doesn't exist.

Is there actually a point to this thread apart from twisted logic?

I think you are confusing "lack of belief" with "I don't believe'...

reply to post by Matrix Rising

Again, where are all the toothfairiest or tinkerbellist that have a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy or Tinkerbell?

The toothfairists and tinkerbellists are the young children who have been taught by parents of the supposed existence of these beings. The children grow up and shed the belief as adults, and have no need to express a lack of belief in these beings because by convention, it is understood that they were only a creation of human imagination.

Why do you need to have a lack of belief in a being you say doesn't exist?

This becomes necessary when there is no longer a consesus among humans regarding the reality and existence of proposed beings, eg, God.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


What do you have to gain by attacking atheists?

Is it to boost your ego or somehow validate your belief in an invisible deity up in the sky?

I could start a thread claiming that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, et al, are all illogical too.

reply to post by mysticnoon


Yest, it's illogical.

If the Atheist said they had a lack of belief in God and they stopped right there, that would be fine. It's when they say God doesn't exist and this is when they fall into a illogical trap.

Saying they lack a belief in God doesn't make an affirming statement about the existence of God. When they say God doesn't exist, then they have a lack of belief in a non existent entity.

An Agnostic position is logical because they don't make the claim that God doesn't exist.

So having a lack of belief in God without saying He doesn't exist is logical. When you say He doesn't exist and then say you have a lack of belief in this non existent entity is illogical. It's just like saying you have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or the Tooth Fairy. You don't see toothfairiest because that would be illogical.

reply to post by The Sword

What do you have to gain by attacking atheists?

I don't see the OP as attacking atheists, I just think the OP is caught in an illogical trap of his own making.

reply to post by Matrix Rising

If the Atheist said they had a lack of belief in God and they stopped right there, that would be fine. It's when they say God doesn't exist and this is when they fall into a illogical trap.

Isn't saying I don't believe in God the same as saying I don't think God exists?
Would be illogical to think differently..

Man, you should argue with my mother in law..
I'd pay to watch..

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Your making an arguement out of nothing man...

It's easy.. Humans created the god fantasy. Enlightened humans realize this and don't have a need to fill the unknowns of life with a fairytale. They are without a supernatural belief system.

Atheist literally means exactly that.. Without theism.

God only enters the equation when a theist interjects it.

You create the need to reject the fantasy by waving it about!

Otherwise, it is as you suggest.

Atheism is illogical.

An Agnostic position is logical. Once an Atheist says God doesn't exist then he/she is standing on illogical grounds. You don't have a lack of belief in an entity you say doesn't exist. There's no Tinkerbellist that have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell because that would be illogical.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Atheism is illogical.

An Agnostic position is logical. Once an Atheist says God doesn't exist then he/she is standing on illogical grounds. You don't have a lack of belief in an entity you say doesn't exist. There's no Tinkerbellist that have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell because that would be illogical.

Who labeled me an Atheist??

I just someone that doesn't believe in God...

reply to post by Matrix Rising


Please respond to my earlier post, I think it will better explain the other side of the argument. It seems other people weren't able to articulate it because your way of thinking on the topic may seem abstract because (no offense, really) there seems to be a flaw.

reply to post by Matrix Rising

If the Atheist said they had a lack of belief in God and they stopped right there, that would be fine. It's when they say God doesn't exist and this is when they fall into a illogical trap.

Well, you didn't specify this in your OP, but instead focused on "lack of belief"

Saying they lack a belief in God doesn't make an affirming statement about the existence of God. When they say God doesn't exist, then they have a lack of belief in a non existent entity.

An Agnostic position is logical because they don't make the claim that God doesn't exist.

So having a lack of belief in God without saying He doesn't exist is logical. When you say He doesn't exist and then say you have a lack of belief in this non existent entity is illogical. It's just like saying you have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or the Tooth Fairy. You don't see toothfairiest because that would be illogical.

Hm, I would say that making the claim that God does not exist simply reflects a materialsitic worldview where things only exist for which clear scientific evidence can be found. This viewpoint itself lacks scientifc validation, it lacks a rational and scientific basis, which is where your idea of "illogic" may arise. So at this point, I will concede the "illogical premise" of the strong atheist viewpoint.

It's not illogical, it's just not necessary - I can say that I don't believe in the tooth fairy, there's nothing illogical about that because the concept of the toothfairy exists.

And as with God, the concept exists and one can say they don't believe in God, it doesn't need to be iterated as the concept of God, it's just fine to say you don't believe in it.

Atheists deny the existence of God, not that many others believe in it.

The reason you don't have Toothfairiests (or Atoothfariests as would probably be more correct) is because millions of people haven't been oppressed, murdered, had entire lives dictated to by the belief in the toothfairy.

I'd never say I was an Atheist because it conjurs up the idea of people running around preaching to others what to believe in, or not to believe in as the case may be - which is as bad as any religion in my eyes.

Originally posted by Arcade425
What can be asserted without proof can be disproven without proof.

You have no proof that I look a certain way - or that I'm a male. Does that mean that you've proven false my actual look, or that I'm a male? Absolutely not. Lack of evidence simply means there's a lack of evidence. You're committing the logical fallacy of appealing to ignorance.

OP, the whole point of atheism is rejection of what the theist believes. An atheist can only become an atheist by first entertaining the "thought" of God's existence. A rock isn't an atheist, as it doesn't reject any theistic claims (it doesn't think). A baby isn't an atheist either, as it isn't rejecting any theistic claims. An atheist must first entertain the thought! Believing something to both exist & not exist is contradictory, indeed. But I don't think that's what the atheist is doing here. They're simply choosing to not believe what the theist does. Don't get me wrong, I also think atheism is illogical/irrational, but not for the reasons that you state.

Also, I think the reason atheists label themselves "atheists", and don't take on titles for everything else they don't believe in, is simple: it's because those are not by any means prevailing beliefs.

People who capitalize His or Him or whatever when speaking about god have no right to talk about logic.

Your god is dead, and no one cares.

If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Touched by his noodly apendage.

Originally posted by Slaytanic
People who capitalize His or Him or whatever when speaking about god have no right to talk about logic.

Do you even know what logic is? Capitalization is irrelevant to valid reasoning. Your conclusion doesn't even follow from it's premise - it's total non sequitur. You might want to try avoiding use of logical fallacies (in the same sentence even!) next time you tell someone they have "no right to talk about logic".

Originally posted by Slaytanic
People who capitalize His or Him or whatever when speaking about god have no right to talk about logic.

Your god is dead, and no one cares.

If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

Touched by his noodly apendage.

noodley apendage indeed since god is a spaghetti monster!