Bible Answers to Member Questions

reply to post by Lazarus Short

You have fallen right into the trap I tried to mark as "don't go there,"

Fear and weakness, is what this says to me, which is what one devolves to when they let go of Christ. You fear the OT Boogy Man.

2 Chronicles 35
. . .he went to fight him in the Plain of Megiddo. Archers shot King Josiah; the king ordered his servants, “Take me out of this chariot, for I am seriously wounded.”So his servants took him out of the chariot, put him in another chariot that he owned, and brought him to Jerusalem, where he died. He was buried in the tombs of his ancestors; all the people of Judah and Jerusalem mourned Josiah. Jeremiah composed laments for Josiah which all the male and female singers use to mourn Josiah to this very day. It has become customary in Israel to sing these; they are recorded in the Book of Laments.
The translator's note for Zechariah 12:11 reads:

The grammar (a subjective genitive) allows, and the problem of comparing Israel’s grief at God’s “wounding” with pagan mourning seems to demand, that this be viewed as a place name, perhaps where Judah lamented the death of good king Josiah.

NETBible
After looking at the alternatives, I think not following what seems to be the straightforward translation concerning this odd seeming name adds an unnecessary complexity which creates more questions than it answers.
I have to think that at the time of the writing of this book, that the place so named would cause the proper recollection in the minds of the hearer's to be able to get the prophet's point across.
In the Hebrew, it looks pretty clear-cut to me concerning this one tiny bit of the "who was pierced", that it is just a literary device to evoke a mental picture with which to have a comparison of the emotion that would take up the people in this prophetic apocalyptic scene.
The difficulty seems to come from what sort of understanding there was in the First Century among people who did not generally have access to, or understanding of, the Hebrew text and relied on the Greek versions which a lot of the copies may have been mass produced containing a lot of inconsistencies and errors, including complete word swaps, in favor of ones more familiar with whoever was doing the copying.
So to make a conclusion to this suggestion by KJV1611, I would say there was a huge disconnect between this prophecy in Zechariah, and the writer of the Gospel of John, where there was a sort of popular saying among the people concerning a messiah and its connection to various OT prophecies of an apocalyptic nature. This sentence, or rather, sentence fragment would have been one to come to mind after learning of all the awful things that were perpetrated against the one this particular sect of Judeans supported for being the one that was foretold.

reply to post by KJV1611

They then see Their God (Jesus) riding through the freaking sky on a white horse so BIG that the whole world can see Him. He then KILLs all of Israel's enemies and sets up shop as the King of The Jews in Jerusalem............Would you doubt any more if you were a Jew and saw all this???? I wouldn't....I would be scared out of my mind and would have no choice but to fall before MY KING THAT MY OWN PEOPLE KILLED and cry and beg for mercy. Which is what you find in verse 11 ↑ And of course, Jesus gives them mercy and saves them all as a NATION, not individually.

Eh... there are a few problem with your explanation.

Firstly, the jews expect their messiah to be 100% human with no supernatural abilities. This is the belief they have been clinging on to for thousands of years. So its highly doubtful that they would immediately identify a horseman in the sky as their messiah... and not incur the wrath of the returning Jesus.
I mean, they did'n't accept Jesus when he was on earth living among them and NOT performing stunts in the sky...so theres no good reason to assume that the jews in Israel would simply accept a messiah on a flying horse.

Secondly, you would know that there is scripture that supports the idea that the re-gathered Israel is being set up for punishment (click on the first link in my sig). So all may not end well for the modern day state of Israel.

You must take the scriptures as a whole and then rightly divide them. If you don't you get over 2,000 different "Christian" sects and cults.

And just what is the correct way to "rightly divide" scriptures? An argument is strong if you use the text in print instead of interconnecting one verse with another. That way, its possible for

Yes the Jews right now are sinful and pieces of trash JUST like any other Gentile. But one day God will take them back. The reason jmdewey60 and many others can't understand this is because God has blinded it from their eyes and it is a "mystery" to them as verse 25 of Romans 11 says.

Scriptures state that God will take back only a remnant of them... those who meet the conditions for it and are worthy of being taken back.

Remember, the Holy Spirit is the true interpreter of Scripture. So if someone can't understand these easy verses, its not there thought. God just refuses to show it to people that doubt His words. (much less those who don't even believe we have God's written words)

But every christian will lay claim to having the holy spirit.... and you know that even charlatans who spread false doctrine can claim that that they have the holy spirit and that they have the correct interpretation of scripture. So using this as a method to make a point is not very useful.

I cant imagine a "christian" proclaiming "I dont have the holy spirit"... though Ive seen plenty of christians accuse other christians of not having it... or being blinded by God to the truth.

reply to post by KJV1611

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Israel.
Not Judah.
Israel is "blind" by not knowing who they are, having been mixed trough all the nations.
Jesus brings their salvation by sending the Apostles to "the Nations".

reply to post by jmdewey60


I was hoping you would come back with some greek/septuagint mumbo jumbo

I simple reply with Scripture:

1 CORINTHIANS 1:19-21
"19 For it is written, I will destroy the WISDOM of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the WISDOM of this world?

Read and LISTEN carefully to verse 21 ↓ _________________________________

21 For after that in the WISDOM of God the world by WISDOM knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. "

You want to know how God will damn a man who doesn't believe His Bible? Its found clearly in the above verse. He lets them gain wisdom, without understanding or discretion. "The world by wisdom knew not God...."

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

You have fallen right into the trap I tried to mark as "don't go there,"

Fear and weakness, is what this says to me, which is what one devolves to when they let go of Christ. You fear the OT Boogy Man.

It is high time you man up to me and tell me why I am an apostate. I can not even see any connection between what I wrote and you quoted, and what you said about it. How do you say I fear the "OT Boogy Man"? Maybe you don't think, just react. Go and take you evil allegations elsewhere.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Firstly, the jews expect their messiah to be 100% human with no supernatural abilities. This is the belief they have been clinging on to for thousands of years.

No, this is the Jewish traditions of what their messiah will be like as found in the talmud and other traditional texts of the Jews. The Old Testament teaches when there Redeemer (from what?), the Savoir (from what?) there King will be God. Read Isaiah chapter 7, 9, and 53.
This is how the Jews will be sweep into the lie of signing a peace treaty for seven years with the future anti-christ.....they will think the anti-christ is their messiah. Nothing but scripture I just said, no opinion. I can and will post the verses if needed.

So its highly doubtful that they would immediately identify a horseman in the sky as their messiah... and not incur the wrath of the returning Jesus.

He doesn't stay on the horse for long as found in Revelation 19, but soon lands on the Mount of Olives, splits it down the middle, and literally walks across thousands of muslims graves and destroys them as he walks through the eastern gate in Jerusalem. (there is a huge muslim graveyard in front of the eastern gate that they put there in an attempt to prevent this prophecy from taking place..... )

I mean, they did'n't accept Jesus when he was on earth living among them and NOT performing stunts in the sky...so theres no good reason to assume that the jews in Israel would simply accept a messiah on a flying horse.

Of course there is.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

They will get PLENTY of SIGNS!!! If you notice (many do not) the plagues and nastiness you find in the Revelation tribulation woes, and trumpets, and viols, and cups match the 10 plagues found in Exodus where God pulled and RESTORED His people out of Egypt (a type of the world). He will do it again in the future. The whole book of Exodus is a prophecy on the Second advent.....many are blind to this because GOD will not show it to people who doubt His words. I for one believe every thing in the Bible. From the punctuation, to the italics!

Secondly, you would know that there is scripture that supports the idea that the re-gathered Israel is being set up for punishment (click on the first link in my sig). So all may not end well for the modern day state of Israel.

I sort of agree with you on this as the tribulation period is known as the "time of JACOBS trouble" not the Christians trouble. The end times disasters are basically to punish the world for its sin and its treatment of Israel, as well as punish the Jews them self for rejecting their Messiah.

But once Jesus returns and the Jews look upon the one they pierced as He enters Jerusalem and reigns as King they will be restored as the bride of God. Those who do not accept him (very few) will die. Easy as that.

reply to post by KJV1611

No, this is the Jewish traditions of what their messiah will be like as found in the talmud and other traditional texts of the Jews. The Old Testament teaches when there Redeemer (from what?), the Savoir (from what?) there King will be God. Read Isaiah chapter 7, 9, and 53.
This is how the Jews will be sweep into the lie of signing a peace treaty for seven years with the future anti-christ.....they will think the anti-christ is their messiah. Nothing but scripture I just said, no opinion. I can and will post the verses if needed.

ummm... its not just Talmud following jews who believe the messiah is human. It is a jewish belief by default.
Jews do NOT completely ignore what the christian bibles version of the OT says. They even cross refer to it on their websites, whenever they have to.
Please link me to a jewish source that states that the messiah will not just be a mere human being...

And no, "messianic jew" sources dont count...as they are seen as "non-jewish" by proper jews.

He doesn't stay on the horse for long as found in Revelation 19, but soon lands on the Mount of Olives, splits it down the middle, and literally walks across thousands of muslims graves and destroys them as he walks through the eastern gate in Jerusalem. (there is a huge muslim graveyard in front of the eastern gate that they put there in an attempt to prevent this prophecy from taking place..... )

Sounds like personal opninion/ speculation/ conjecture to me. Nothing in the bible supports this.

Of course there is.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:22
"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:"

They will get PLENTY of SIGNS!!! If you notice (many do not) the plagues and nastiness you find in the Revelation tribulation woes, and trumpets, and viols, and cups match the 10 plagues found in Exodus where God pulled and RESTORED His people out of Egypt (a type of the world).

Well, the signs in revelations(trumpets, vials, woes etc) are all part of christian eschatological literature. Jews dont accept the book of revelations as legitimate scripture. So its highly unlikely that they will accept (what appears to them as) a flying horseman to be their messiah.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

You have fallen right into the trap I tried to mark as "don't go there,"

Fear and weakness, is what this says to me, which is what one devolves to when they let go of Christ. You fear the OT Boogy Man.

It is high time you man up to me and tell me why I am an apostate. I can not even see any connection between what I wrote and you quoted, and what you said about it. How do you say I fear the "OT Boogy Man"? Maybe you don't think, just react. Go and take you evil allegations elsewhere.

Maybe you should explain what you mean by things like "fallen into the trap" and "don't go there,", so I am not left guessing and coming up with "evil allegations".
When I read these enigmatic lines, it sounds like "where one fears to tread". What are you afraid of?

reply to post by KJV1611

I was hoping you would come back with some greek/septuagint mumbo jumbo

You think that the king James is the perfect creation of God.
I think that belief is the product of profound ignorance.
You think that opinion from me is the sign of lack of faith.
I believe you an idolater.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by KJV1611

 

I was hoping you would come back with some greek/septuagint mumbo jumbo

You think that the king James is the perfect creation of God.
I think that belief is the product of profound ignorance.
You think that opinion from me is the sign of lack of faith.
I believe you an idolater.

Here, jmdewey is correct. It is quite possible to make most anything an idol, and the 1611 King James Bible is no exception. It is not perfect, only the original manuscripts in the original languages were perfect, and does KJV1611 suppose that God prefers Elizabethan English over Hebrew or Greek? In fact, the translation he so adores is a translation, not a direct revelation from God. Don't get me wrong, I have high respect for that translation, but it is not perfect, as many people are eager to point out. However, the modern versions they promote instead are far worse. Ivan Panin proved that the Bible could be restored to a perfect state mathematically, due to the mathematical coding of the text, but that is a bit far afield.

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

You have fallen right into the trap I tried to mark as "don't go there,"

Fear and weakness, is what this says to me, which is what one devolves to when they let go of Christ. You fear the OT Boogy Man.

It is high time you man up to me and tell me why I am an apostate. I can not even see any connection between what I wrote and you quoted, and what you said about it. How do you say I fear the "OT Boogy Man"? Maybe you don't think, just react. Go and take you evil allegations elsewhere.

Maybe you should explain what you mean by things like "fallen into the trap" and "don't go there,", so I am not left guessing and coming up with "evil allegations".
When I read these enigmatic lines, it sounds like "where one fears to tread". What are you afraid of?

We must have a failure to communicate. I thought I had explained this at least once, but in all fairness, I will try again. What I was trying to say was for you not to fall into the trap of equating or confusing these three entities:
the Jews, Judah (one tribe), and Israel (all tribes). That's why I said, "don't go there." Are we clear?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Here, jmdewey is correct. It is quite possible to make most anything an idol, and the 1611 King James Bible is no exception. It is not perfect, only the original manuscripts in the original languages were perfect,

That's the two of yours opinion. I hold to ONLY the "original manuscripts in the original languages were perfect" as false. Originals don't matter at all. Read Jeremiah chapter 36, the WHOLE chapter for a true Biblical example on how God feels about "originals". You two both get back with me in regards to this chapter.

and does KJV1611 suppose that God prefers Elizabethan English over Hebrew or Greek?

Yes. Of course He does. If He didn't don't you think God would have persevered His original language manuscripts instead of letting them vanish....? God could care less what language His words are in...JUST AS LONG as the majority of people are able to READ them! Hints why there are realiably Bible translations in almost 2,500 different languages today based on the RT the KJV was translated from. Why do you think English was choosen? The majority of poeple in the world didn't nor would they ever speak latin, greek, aramaeic, or hebrew.
You think Engish is the main language of the world today on accident???

In fact, the translation he so adores is a translation, not a direct revelation from God.

of course its a translating....for ALL english speaking people. And yes, it is a DIRECT revelation from God. Even more so than when the apostles wrote the New Testament.

Don't get me wrong, I have high respect for that translation, but it is not perfect, as many people are eager to point out.

Once again I ask, no, beg! show me one error in the KJV. There has never been one proven to be an error. It always comes down ignorance in regards to the question. And yes, every single word in the KJV is a more accurate translation than any of the new bibles as you pointed out. Including the word "Easter."

However, the modern versions they promote instead are far worse. Ivan Panin proved that the Bible could be restored to a perfect state mathematically, due to the mathematical coding of the text, but that is a bit far afield.

that may be true about the math stuff, but if I had the choice of the originals verses the KJV, I would choice the KJV any day of the week.

READ Jer 36 and get back with me you too! I look forward to the discussion.

reply to post by KJV1611


OK, I read Jeremiah 36, the whole chapter, and I suspected before I cracked a Bible what it would be about, and it was. Just to make it more interesting, I read it in Ferrar Fenton's version. I like his OT, but his NT is based on Westcott and Hort, so I don't care for that.

We do not know if Jeremiah's second edition (ignoring for the moment the extra bonus material in the second) was word-for-word exactly like the first edition, or if it was different. I can't say yea, and you can't say nay, but I must suppose that his second document bears much the same relationship to the Book of Jeremiah as we know it today as the Book of the Law does to the Books of Moses. With that said, I'm sure God could have easily inspired an equally perfect second edition even if they were different, just like Mozart ripping off violin concertos in massive numbers.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I'm sure God could have easily inspired an equally perfect second edition even if they were different, just like Mozart ripping off violin concertos in massive numbers.

Exactly my point. God nor I needs the originals. God Himself promised in His word to preserve His owns words for EVERY generation Ps 12:6-7. So either we have His words...or God is a lair, period.

I for one believe God kept His word (no pun intended and we have God's words AS HE WANTED US TO HAVE them today. Screw the original greek and hebrew. (although Hebrew will be the new world language very soon...so yeah...maybe not so much screw the hebrew)

OK, point taken, and I see that it is a matter of faith with you. Now that I think about it, it makes sense to me that God would have insured the survival of accurate Bibles, whatever the language.

[Had to exit for a bit.] KJV1611, I am still in total awe of your mindset on this whole thing. I wish you would go into depth on this. I always thought of the KJV as one of the very best English Bibles, and I know the scholars who did the work spent much time in prayer, revised and reviewed. and produced an excellent Bible. I know this because my father was a KJV loyalist, even to the point of offering to pay for KJV Bibles for the pews in our church. You know, you know what they did ...NIV's got put in the pews. Your faith goes so far as to say God gave them better inspiration than the original NT writers, yes? It all hinges on whether we see the KJV as just a good translation, or whether we view it as the Word of God for English speaker in the present age. Does that make sense?

reply to post by KJV1611

God Himself promised in His word to preserve His owns words for EVERY generation Ps 12:6-7. So either we have His words...or God is a lair, period.

Or choice 3, You are the liar.
We should take a look at the verses you cited, in context.

“Because of the violence done to the oppressed, because of the painful cries of the needy,
I will spring into action,” says the Lord.
“I will provide the safety they so desperately desire.”
The Lord’s words are absolutely reliable.
They are as untainted as silver purified in a furnace on the ground,
where it is thoroughly refined.
You, Lord, will protect them*;
you will continually shelter each one from these evil people,
for the wicked seem to be everywhere,
when people promote evil.

*translator's note: The third person plural pronominal suffix on the verb is masculine, referring back to the “oppressed” and “needy” in v. 5 (both of those nouns are plural in form), suggesting that the verb means “protect” here. The suffix does not refer to אִמֲרוֹת (’imarot, “words”) in v. 6, because that term is feminine gender.

NETBible
The "protecting" is of the people, as promised by God's words, not the protecting of the word itself.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You are either a troll, or a very, very judgmental person. Either way, you subvert your own ability to learn.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

You are either a troll, or a very, very judgmental person. Either way, you subvert your own ability to learn.

No, I protect myself from lies by being knowledgeable.
I am "judgmental" about lies.
Tell the truth and you avoid my judgement.