My first issues with the Bible.

Originally posted by Akragon
skip ahead and read about jesus man, the rest of the book matters very little...

How interesting that you would say such a thing because if you believed what you read about Jesus then I doubt that you would be saying that the rest of the book matters very little. Here is a parable that Jesus shared worth reading in Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I'd like us to utilize our critical thinking skills here. In this parable Jesus says that those who do not listen to Moses and the Prophets of the old testament will not be convinced enough to repent of their sins EVEN IF someone rises from the dead. Well now, who rose from the dead..BING BING BING! Yep, Jesus did! So in essence it doesn't just take merely knowing that Jesus rose from the dead to save us from the place of torment, tears and gnashing of teeth, we must repent, which means stop sinning, NOT telling ourselves that it's impossible to obey God's commands because Jesus said, "If you love me you'll obey my commands".

'Fundamentalism is a symptom of fragile faith'. The dogmatic Christian folk commenting on your post are scared they are wrong and they can't have you asking questions that might pose a threat to their own beliefs. It was a question, you don't need to stand on top of the moral high ground and shout down everyone else's ideas. This website is taking a dive if questions like that can't be asked.

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by InnerstellarOne
the catholics never maintained the bible, King james refined it.

This is simply not true. The Council of Carthage canonized the current scripture picks in 397 AD. King James simply decided to retranslate to better Anglicize it.

I thought it was the council of Nicea?

Originally posted by ChaosComplex
****Let me start this by saying I am here to ask questions and learn. I have no intentions of bashing anyone for their beliefs, as I accept all ideas for thought.****

So I decided to start to read the Bible, and already in the first few minutes of reading I have a huge issue.

"1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

"after his kind" makes me think that these creatures were based on creatures that existed somewhere else...

"1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

What? Let US make? In OUR image? After OUR likeness? What the... How can no one have an issue with this?

I am a Christian who embraces science, psychology, and philosophy. Since this occurs in many places within the book of Genesis, I can completely understand why this is confusing.

My theory...
The Book of Genesis and The Book of Revelation is all about geological evolution (The Big Bang), animal evolution (Natural Selection), and where humanity resides within the process. When God uses the words 'like us' and 'like we do', I think he is talking to beings that currently exists in the universe. If you take the bible apart and spread it across the floor, (in order of how it is written), you will realize it is completely out of sequential order. Many events that take place later in the book actually occur during the first chapter. Satan's fall from heaven occurs in between the moment when God said, "Let there be light" and the fall of Adam and Eve. What does that mean? Simple, the bible is written on a fundamental level, so that primitive man (people with limited knowledge about the world) can get a glimpse of something more complex.

Science is key to unfolding the complexities in which the bible explains on a fundamental level.

Originally posted by spacekc929
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

Yes lol Truce.

wink wink

Great argument tho

Originally posted by Cataclysmo
If people don't learn to deal with others not having the same beliefs how do we ever expect to reach new heights in civilization.

We don't. The Bible already tells Christians how everything is going to end. And a lot of them think it could happen tomorrow. There's no reason to progress, no reason to take care of the earth and definitely no reason to entertain a different belief. And deep down they really don't want world peace, because war in the Middle East (holy ground) is a sign that the second coming is just around the corner. When Jesus comes back on his white horse with his sword to slay the devil and all of the non believers.

Now that's how I've always pictured Jesus. With a sword brutally murdering millions of people!

reply to post by Wonders


thats a good take from that but i have a better one:

the rich man is the Jews who had the law a squandered it which is why moses and the prophets were referenced

the poor man is the gentiles (considered little more than dogs to jews at that time) who ate the scraps from the Jews

the poor man received heaven the rich (again referenced many times in NT) didnt because they knew, let me reiterate they knew the law and yet still disobeyed where as the beggar was only doing what he could.

the reason he is denied the poor man going down to see his brothers is because like Jesus doing all the miracles they would still deny what the poor man had to say.

read that story in the whole context of that chapter and you will see that was what he was meaning. Over half of Jesus' parables had to do with the jews and there disobedience to the law. all of the rich man stories were in direct argument with the pharisce i believe(could be wrong). It was like Jesus was talking crap about them to there face but they couldn't understand hence a parable.

thats my take anyways

I will agree with another poster in stating that the New Contract is all you need to know, but the Old Contract is really needed so that one understands some parts of the New Contract. I believe Hebrews makes that pretty clear, however one cant truly grasp life if they dont understand death. so I agree to disagree taking no position

Originally posted by totalmetal

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by InnerstellarOne
the catholics never maintained the bible, King james refined it.

This is simply not true. The Council of Carthage canonized the current scripture picks in 397 AD. King James simply decided to retranslate to better Anglicize it.

I thought it was the council of Nicea?

It was finally settled by the Council of Carthage based on the St. Cyril's flavor of the bible. I think the Nicea dudes were the ones who invented Easter and some early groundwork for the Holy Trinity. I think the canon was already decided on by the time those guys came around.

reply to post by ChaosComplex


May be there where many other gods

reply to post by Wonders


you dont really know who wrote the bible or if its accurate

We have no perspective to understand God's origin. It would be presumptuous to assume you can understand apart from observation while trapped in an alternate material reality. When you exist as a spirit, you will have perspective. I will assume I don't know and be fine with that thought. As for the fact that we live in a created reality which is based on consciousness, consider your dreams. They seem real, but are they? They are a conscious reflection of your reality here and less real than when you are awake. Be assured that we will wake up from this reality one day and realize that it was all an illusion in similar fashion. The main point to the story line of this reality is faith first, then hope and finally it was all done for love. 1 Corinthians 13.

Originally posted by 2012king
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

so we are all in somebodys head? come on, im sure you can do better than that. do you not have a theory that is not designed and written in such a way that it is impossible to prove?
if god exists he was created. no matter what he is, be it alien or earth itself he was created by something.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


That's nice, but I don't care about India. I care about my own religion. And it says in plain simple words, God created man in his image, and then he created THEM male and female. Humanity is in and of itself male and female. And they are together in the likeness of God. God himself has no gender, but is generally regarded as him simply because of the father figure seen in Abraham. Bible kind of indicates the man is the head of the household, but that is not male domineering. It is more like male enslavement. It says they must love. Something contrary to the very nature of what male is. Love unconditionally and forgive.

All and all, it is viewed more like a father, a son, and then the connection between the two. There is no female essence other than the father's motherly instincts.

I fail to see how Christ is like anyone else out there. You can go blab on and on about reincarnation and similarities. A few man made gods were born to virgins and a few rose after death (which they died as gods, invalidating their own godliness. Jesus was a man with the spirit of God.). That's about as far as the parallel goes. The reasons for death, and rising again, are not the same. The reasons for virgin birth are not the same. The reason in general is not the same. Christ was an exampled for humanity. Male and female. Irregaurdless of the silliness you claim.

Go on with your claims. You have not proven them.

Originally posted by ChaosComplex
****Let me start this by saying I am here to ask questions and learn. I have no intentions of bashing anyone for their beliefs, as I accept all ideas for thought.****

So I decided to start to read the Bible, and already in the first few minutes of reading I have a huge issue.

"1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good."

"after his kind" makes me think that these creatures were based on creatures that existed somewhere else...

"1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

What? Let US make? In OUR image? After OUR likeness? What the... How can no one have an issue with this?

edit on 3/20/2011 by ChaosComplex because: (no reason given)

edit on 3/20/2011 by ChaosComplex because: (no reason given)

I am sure that this will have been posted many times, so my apologies in advance for repeating information.

The "after its kind" is usually taken to mean "reproduces after its kind", meaning simply that two oxen breed and you get an ox. It's really just talking about reproduction. The ancient Hebrews understood all this pretty well and some of the earliest references to breeding experiments are essentially in the book of Genesis (read a bit further in the book to the story of Jacob).

The "in our image" is indeed interesting, but it is the "Correct Translation TM". The word used for God in the Hebrew at that point (elohim I think) is basically a plural word. Some see it as referring to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, i.e. trinity. Of course the Jews interpret it slightly differently (I think they intepret it to be referring to the plurality of God's power, or the entire heavenly host maybe, but I would look this up, as I haven't studied this recently).

In other parts of Genesis you read about the Angel of the Lord. See especially the story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In that story, it makes it pretty clear that the angel of the Lord and the Lord are identified. But then it talks about three men who came to see Lot and so on. Yet in other places it says God is invisible. In Revelations it talks about the seven Spirits (or sevenfold spirit) of God.

These things are not contradictory to the Christian faith, but confirmatory when understood. The big conspiracy here is that you never knew about them because no one ever told you!

I don't mean to imply that these things are not a mystery (in the Greek sense of the word -- something formerly hidden, but now made known). But that is what the Gospel is all about -- revealing the hidden things of God in the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ.

Very interesting questions, and I hope you'll continue to ask them as you read the Bible. I pray that God will open your eyes so that you may see the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6).

reply to post by Section31


Um wow dude! lol

I bet if you brought your "theory" up to your pastor, his head might explode!

It's an interesting idea. It's kind of like you are trying to fit quantum mechanics with in the standard model. So you use several dimensions to make it happen. I still don't buy it, but I appreciate that you believe in science.

Even if the Bible is totally symbolic, I still don't believe in some of it's fundamental teachings.

Like original sin. I believe "sin" is a learned behavior and not inherent.

And the belief that God created the earth and its creatures for man to have dominion over. I believe that we are part OF the earth. Not ON it, taking dominion over it. Big difference. Similar to how all of your different cells make up you. We are human cells making up the Earth. And like any cell, if it takes dominion over the organism, it is cancer.

The hebrew bible, Not the torah, Is 99% accurate to the KJV.

King james had hundreds, thousands of scholars working on to decode and refine the hebrew words to the closest english representation.

I dont read any other bible other then the KJV, Or NKJV.
My lecturer at bible school has the hebrew bible, And its strikingly similar.

If the catholics really knew the word, and followed it, They wouldnt be repenting to a fake priest?
Or they would believe the messiah not the vigrin mary.

catholic faith is interesting, But its not christ centred, Nor do they even actually what his real purpose is.
Today the catholic church is caught up in fictious holyness, Where the only respected people are nuns and deacons and bishops, This goes against what jesus taught, That all men are equal, And that who ever wants to be a disciple of God must follow Jesus and take up his cross daily, Thats what it means to be christ like

The flaw with many goods religious text are, that they try to convey or argue the existence of God through text material, and prove the existence by pointing to other text verses, which in logical terms, is 100% invalid because it's circular argumentation. It proves nothing.

In any religion, it's not about the facts, but if you believe or have the faith.

Faith is just that, Faith it is not proven or re-enforced by a religious dogma.

That is one of the reasons so many religions get abused, because of interpretation and hidden agenda's.

Simple really. You either have it or you don't.

Lucifer is only mentioned one time in the Bible and is a mistranslation where a Latin word is used for a Hebrew word. Jerome mistranslated the Hebrew word as Lucifer when he should have said Bright and shining king of Babylon. This is found in Isaiah 14.

There are three references in the Bible where Christ is the Bright and Morning star. One in 2 Peter and two in Revelation. The term Lucifer means illumination or luminous (Phosphorous) and the morning star is Venus. Satan is not Lucifer and the term Lucifer is not an evil title. Christ is the only bright and morning star who rises in our hearts. This is an allusion to Venus rising in the morning. The Harbinger of a new day.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Not too awful long ago I postulated the theory that Jesus and Lucifer
Are one, and the same. Care to comment? Bore called "Morning Sta," both are "Bringers of Light," and I have read through the Bible several times over, and have seen nothing that Lucifer, or Satan ever did to harm humankind. Not one thing.

reply to post by InnerstellarOne


All I can say is "calm down bro..." just because you believe that the earth was created in seven days despite all of the fossils we have. I really shouldn't have to say more than fossil. It must suck knowing deep down that your messiah is a middle aged zombie whom lived over 2,00 years ago. See? I can be condescending and off topic too.

Originally posted by InnerstellarOne

As for god making man in OUR image, It refers to the Holy trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God The holy spirit, He made us in the image of him, He put his spirit in US, and the father lives inside us, Cause we are his spirit.

Jesus said " the *kingdom of God* is inside you etc......not " God is inside you'.

a little something worth noting.

Sin is a disease, It takes you of your joy and leaves you feeling sick, Alone, and segregated from the ones you love

Sin may offer you riches and promise you treasures, but in the end it will rob you of your inheritence, blessing and peace, It will cause you grief and agony. But when we repent with a sincere heart to jesus he restores your joy, pours out his blessings, Gives you peace and Returns back your inheritence eternal life