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Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th
This post is a response to your latest long bible-citing post, and has nothing to do with my offer of a dialogue (as this bible-post of yours obviously is preaching in monologue form).
Not surprisingly, I consider all of it bosh. Home in your congregation you would possibly have recieved some confirmative 'amens', 'hallelujahs and 'glory bes'.
On ATS your main support in keeping this thread alive is the alleged schizophrenia, you have diagnosed me with,
www.abovetopsecret.com...
a alleged schizophrenia you actually should be grateful for, as it gives you an excuse to continue your crusade.
So is it back to verbal street-fighting level or shall we seriously take up a dialogue, you have asked for for, but never respond to when offered.
I, for one, strongly support your right to have your faith at an individual level or together with consenting adults. The only restriction being that it doesn't interfere with the mechanisms of liberal, egalitarian, liberal democracy outside the standard procedures of parliamentarism.
Keep this dialogue-aspiration alive, and you'll find it easer to communicate. One of the persons I respect most on this sub-forum is a kind of christian 'grand old man', who increasingly demonstrates both competence and knowledge through his ability to communicate balanced without black/white framing of the debate.
Think of it as everyone having their own unique 'mental maze' (less generously called 'tunnel-reality'). There doesn't exist one universal 'map' fitting for all these mazes. This doesn't mean, that existential absolutes are absolute impossibilities, but that 'free will' (to the extent it exists; free will doesn't negotiate gravity just like that) can give rise to endless complexity. Individually we really are making SOMEWHAT observer-created mini-universes (I only carry this idea to some limited extent).
For good or bad, that's the way it is. Hopefully mankind grows up from its present state of being talking monkeys with intellects out-of-tune with the rest of the human totality. We know much, but too little, and many of our responses to existence are still very instinctive, so disharmony arises easily between over-dimensioned intellects clashing with 'primitive' needs and drives.
Individuals with different mazes, mindsets, ideologies etc than yours will react similarly to what they consider YOUR ignorance, and the fireworks will start.
I guess, that you are a US citizen, and as such used to a very polarized situation. In northern Europe the average moderate christian isn't exposed to much such confrontation; though our extremists are, because they are considered a threat to our old traditions of liberal society.
If it's any consolation, my own opinion of new-age religions aren't too high. Most of it being clichée karma, anti-dualism and hijacked quantum-mechanics.
This can be said about every single system of social engineering ever invented.
The money-grabbers certainly do their best to encourage an unhealthy hedonism. My own answer is to demonstrate (non-invasively, as an optional example), that it's possible to be content in a somewhat simplistic life-style.
Mankind isn't really a 'philosophical' species yet; more like monkeys let loose on the banana plantation because of a technology a millenium ahead of our general ability to handle it. Give people the opportunity to get some useless electronic toy, and most go all funny in their heads.
Christianity is far from being the only system considering the problems of 'ego'. Unfortunately theism in general has a tendency to create hierarchies ('god' at the top and then downwards to whatever is 'bad' at the bottom), and hierarchies are hothouses for the ego.
Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th
Quote: ["It was my way of trying to figure you out, and to maybe get a more toned down discussion from you, rather than an attack type. Nothing good can come from a arrogant* attitude, and If I feel that I'm being dealt with in an arrogant fashion, I will treat those as they treat me, that may be one of my weaknesses, but at least I'll admit it."]
I'll try to be polite about it, hope I'm successful.
It's one thing to be a head-on verbally glib bastard (I admit to doing that on occasion). It's quite another to start playing mindgames or making manipulative 'traps'.
First of all most of the 'experienced' opposition you'll meet here can see through this immediately, and we have our own ways of dealing with it. Secondly it's personally a dangerous activity, because the basic dishonesty in the method eventually reflects back with a resulting negative influence of personal integrity.
Some of your 'compatriot' christians get so caught up in this attitude, that they eventually are excommunicated from the forum, because they literally start to rant.
But don't trust my word on it. Look around.
PS Reading back you may notice, that I gave you an early offer of 'armistice', which you unfortunately didn't see or weren't interested in. Most of these christian/christian-critic threads are identical and it's possible to predict most of the initial maneuvers after some time and I try to put in an opening for real communication, when I find it possible. Remember that missionaries are considered invaders from my/our perspective.
* Hmmm.
Quote: ["As a Christian we don't have to convince anyone that they need to be saved,"] So why are you trying?
Quote: ["if they want to hear what God has to say it's up to them."] Please, if you want to play wordgames, at least be funny, sophisticated or something. You preach, free speech and all, I can ignore it or be saved. I 'counter'-preach, free speech and all, YOU can ignore it or be lost (from grace I mean). For the rest of this post, you relapse into sending bible-citations to me.... ...and Dude, that disappoints me. It's pointless, even as a possible mindgame gambit.
And what do you call all the other types of missioning? new age, atheist beliefs, ideas of mysticism, ideas that science is the answer to all of life's problems, etc. Are you saying that Christians shouldn't feel that, that's invasive missioning.
reply to post by bogomil
"As a Christian we don't have to convince anyone that they need to be saved,
So why are you trying?
Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th
You wrote:
["Missionaries were on a mission that they were commissioned by God to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. What happened though is they became too proud and thought they were better than everybody else, that's where they failed. Not 100 percent of them, but most of them, and that's how Christianity got a bad rep."]
Got a 'mirror'? Introspection would do you a world of good.
Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th
And what do you call all the other types of missioning? new age, atheist beliefs, ideas of mysticism, ideas that science is the answer to all of life's problems, etc. Are you saying that Christians shouldn't feel that, that's invasive missioning.
I can't recall the last time a new ager, atheist, scientist, or mystic knocked on my door and tried to convert me to their beliefs.
Are you saying that this happens to Christians, that these non-christians invade your privacy and try to convince you to join their "religion"?
Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by hawaii50th
What you basically are saying is that if oppressors aren't allowed to oppress, then these oppressors are being oppressed themselves also. This argument is meaningless and can be regressed endlessly.
I made a very valid point, and all you did was side step it because you don't have anything to back yourself up with.
You obviously take an elitist stand; try to sugarcoat it semantically; wriggle out of criticism by ignoring it, playing mindgames or by being indignant because you are being persecuted. All this because mankind increasingly deny your ideological fascism.
Your the type that if you were an interpreter for a dignitary, you would misinterpret the whole dialogue just to suit your own twisted agenda. You'd make a typical politician for the age of deception that we are in, I hope your not one, we have too many of those already.
Anyone furthering messages of totalitarian principles and e.g. describing homosexuals as mentally ill, isn't in a position of whining about being victimized.
Another useless misinterpretation, because you got nothing else better to come back with. See, your weak, and all that you believe in is senseless thoughts and ideas, with no substance. Your arguments are flaccid.
Apparantly I'm the only one (apart from mysticnoon) bothering to answer you regularly and at any length.
There you go again flattering yourself, hey, if that's what makes feel better about yourself, than go for it.
Is this an 'only for zombis' thread, and how would you make that stick?
The only zombie coming around here is you. So I guess that makes you lost.?
No they don't come a knockin at my literal door. They come knockin in music that kids and teenagers buy, they come knockin in magazines that kids and teenagers buy, they come knockin in video games that kids and teenagers buy, they come knockin on television that kids, teenagers, and adults, watch, they come knockin in movies that everyone watches, they come knockin on the internet. So you see, that these new agers, that includes all those mentioned before as alternative religions which might as well be called pagans, infiltrate the majority of every type of media that can be imagined
I understand what you are saying, but all of the above are media which you invite into your own home. There are always choices, both to avoid them as much as practical, and to see that they do not overwhelm your senses. These things exist because they meet the demand of a large portion of the public. I am personally against many of these influences, but I live in a world where my preferences are in the minority, so I need to be more selective and take responsibility for guarding myself against any unwanted influences. I cannot reasonably expect that the world conform to my own standards, I just have to adjust to the situation as best as I can. For example, I am a vegetarian, and I find it deeply disturbing that most of the population support the slaughter of animals to satisfy their palette, but I am not going to harrass every meat-eater that I know (which happens to be most of my family) and try and convert them to my way of thinking. I will state my case when I am asked, but I know that relentless preaching only causes people to become defensive and does not invite change.