Christians, stop SOME hate!

If you believe "homosexuals are sinners" (just by itself) is hateful speech, then you imply it is okay to be hateful towards people who have done wrong, and you furthermore imply there is nothing wrong with hate so long as its directed against the people you don't approve of. I'll be the first to admit I don't love criminals very much but I can easily say I do refrain from hate speech against them on ATS, whereas I see lots of hate speech against them on ATS otherwise that for the most part goes unchecked against.

When people say they view that homosexuality is a sin, they are often told they are being hateful or bigoted. Well, that accusation is actually just as much or offensive than the accused person in most cases. In fact, the majority of posters who've made such accusations on ATS are in fact guilty of a greater offense and I'll explain why.

The key focus in hate is supposed to be whether the person actually has ill will towards certain people. There are lots of ATS postings where people have ill will towards people who lie, cheat, steal, etc. I can't help but notice those postings are hateful and of course represent the majority of hate, on not just the ATS website but by humanity in general. But, rarely does anybody call them out on it in those cases. Compare tiny number that with the number of times "hate" is used in posts about homosexuality and you find out the number of hypocrites on ATS. The point is that if you have ill will towards homosexuals than you are just as bigoted and hateful as someone who has ill will towards liars, cheaters, and thieves. Wishing for even a pedophile to die is technically just as bigoted and hateful as wishing for a homosexual to die.

When people say "don't hate" that should mean "don't hate", instead of "don't hate, except for this awful group of people I do hate". The reason its hypocritical is that when someone interprets the allegation of a wrong as hateful they also imply if someone really is committing a crime or moral wrong then it would be just fine to hate them or commit violent acts against them. So when they are saying "stop hate" in response to the concept of homosexuality being wrong they most of the time seem to mean "It's okay... go ahead and hate on criminals... just don't hate homosexuals, got it?".

Now if someone says "God should wipe homosexuals off the map" he is most certainly showing hate and bigotry, but outside of apparent internet trolls (who make a conservative Christian posting but then list their mood as "horny" which makes you question their actual conservationism and wonder whether they are a simple internet troll), I have yet to encounter a person who says such things in real life. Perhaps if I lived in the US rural south I'd encounter a *few*. In fact, all of the church-going Christians that I know personally who view homosexuality as a "sin" seem to be kind and loving towards homosexuals, meaning they are not such terrible people after all. If someone claims to be a Christian and believes "homosexuals are sinners" then it should have no harmful effects on any relationships they have with homosexual people because they must also believe "love everyone equally". "True" Christians can be perfect friends with homosexuals when they don't mind having the difference in opinion about what is wrong and what isn't. In real life that is kind of rare because that will be too awkward for some people, but it can happen and does happen.

In any case, the sooner we accept that other people commit wrongs and that we can still love those people without a problem the sooner we can help end hate and attain a higher level of civilization as a result. If someone says "homosexuals most certainly end up in hell.... thats too bad because I love them" it is actually a higher level of civility than saying "homosexuals are just fine with me, and by the way thieves should be given the death penalty".

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" Matthew 7:1-2

Check out the link Answer

Originally posted by Oklastatefan
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" Matthew 7:1-2

Check out the link Answer

From the link:

"A true act of love is treating someone with respect and kindness even though he/she knows you do not approve of his lifestyle and/or choices."

It's ironic that many christians do the opposite.

reply to post by civilchallenger


When a man is driving down the wrong lane and someone is screaming at them that they're going down the "wrong road" is that hate? Humans when given to sin are driving down the road to death and destruction. God hates all manner of sin because it leads to do death. When a person tells a homosexual that what they are doing is wrong it should be BECAUSE they are motivated by the love within them to see that person repent of their sin and commit their life to God and live a life of Life not Death. It's the immature christians that make it feel like hate. Mature christians understand this and practice this. We are commanded to love our neighbors, be a light in this world, reprove sin, be the salt of the earth. I have several homosexual people that i work with and know within my family. They already know what i stand for and believe and I don't have to preach it to them with words but in action. I let the light of God that is within me, the love of God in me with my actions preach that Christ is the way to salvation and forgiveness of Sins. that its because he loves you that he died for you. That you don't have to be any longer a slave to sin and death but free until salvation and righteousness. Most importantly i pray for them that they would find the truth for those that walk in darkness need the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the truth in his word. for it is life and life to all those that hear and the truth will set them free.

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

When a man is driving down the wrong lane and someone is screaming at them that they're going down the "wrong road" is that hate?

That's not hate, but explain; What are the reasons why a homosexual is going in the "wrong road"?

I also like to ask you if you know about homosexuality.

Declaring that sin is a sin is not hate. We are all sinners so do we all hate ourselves? We sin all the time, but if something is a sin it's a sin, whether we give into temptation or not.

I will start by confessing that I consider myself a Christian, just so there is no confusion.

I highly doubt that there is a homosexual anywhere in our country that has not heard "You are an abomination", "You are going to hell", etc. I really don't believe that they need to keep hearing it. Second verse, same as the first.

They prefer the same sex. That doesn't make them stupid and unable to comprehend. They KNOW how some Christians view them.

We all sin. ALL of us do wrong at one point or another. If you think being gay is a sin then that still puts us all on a level playing field.

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

Lots of people are casting boulders... not just stones.

Telling someone they are going to hell, may not be considered hate by everyone but it sure holds a lot of "judgement". Since not one of us can legitimately cast a stone at anyone else, I guess we can just pretend it isn't a judgement.

Homosexuals have been systematically driven away from the church because of the treatment they have recieved from so called Christians. By doing this you are doing the devil's work. Not God's. And IMHO I would not want to answer to why I drove folks from God instead of to Him on judgement day.

Every person's relationship with God is between the two. My God loves everyone. If your's doesn't, then I don't know what to say about that.

The problems arise when a politician flaunts their religiousness (which of the innumerable denominations thereof?) and even votes against said principles.

Religion is a modern day political tool, not just one of the past. Morality is a political tool, and always will be. Take consolation in that, at least.

Religion is often denominational, hindering, and hypocritical when held to scrutiny. We ought to use it carefully. Religion has its significance in the role of peace on the world stage, and its not something to be manipulated for war. Much less for any immoral agendas! Less it lose all credibility with the prevailing moralities.

If religion is to serve us peace, and good, it should accept its role.

reply to post by civilchallenger


Well, if it were just "my religion believes homosexual acts are a sin," and nothing else, that wouldn't really be hate. But it is never just that. It's always packaged wit hthe expectation that the gay person, indeed the society at large, accept and respect this declaration as being meaningful for their own lives. "Homosexuality is a sin" is the basis behind almost every instance of anti-gay legislation and political movements. The statement itself conveys pity, even loathing; the person stating "homosexuality is a sin" does not see the person before them as "Bob the grocery clerk, who's trying to write the Great American Novel on the side, who has an awkward relationship with his ex" but rather "Bob the sinful queer." This is the same problem whith "Hate the sin but love the sinner" - when you are classifying millions of people solely by how they offend YOUR magical sky-monster, you are engaging in hate.

This is not complex. It's only when people try to justify their irrational beliefs and hatreds of other people that it starts looking messy.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

Well, if it were just "my religion believes homosexual acts are a sin," and nothing else, that wouldn't really be hate. But it is never just that.

But, in the modern times, there is a much bigger threat to our right to free speech by so-called "gay rights activists" than there is to the right to gay romance from "anti-gay activists".

Look how someone was arrested for saying nothing more than "homosexuality is a sin" in 2007:
www.telegraph.co.uk...

When is the last time someone was arrested for being gay in a modernized country? Years ago? Decades? When is the last time someone was arrested for saying "being homosexual is a sin"? 2007. Therefore there should be a greater concern about being able to simply state an opinion about what is wrong and what isn't, than there is for gay being being disallowed from engaging in their lifestyle.

Most of the time on ATS when homosexuality is mentioned by Christians, and you can look up "homosexuality is a sin" for your self to confirm this, that ("gay is a sin") really is all that is being said. And in my personal conversation with other conservative Christians that is basically all that is said as well.

Of course there is the schoolyard bullying that happens to homosexuals but its pretty much the same kind of bullying that also happens to conservative Christian kids who don't fit in either these days.

And while it is true that Christian conservatives are against gays being allowed to get a marriage license, thats about the extent of it. Personally I don't believe in getting permission from the state to marry and therefore I do not believe in marriage licenses. Therefore the number of people allowed to be married by the state is largely irrelevant to me.

I believe the more church-going conservative Christians you know the more you will realize that when they say "homosexuality is a sin" it actually is just that most of the time and very rarely anything more. Most of the "gay-bashing" that goes on is not done by the Christian conservative crowd, but the teenage bully crowd.

Originally posted by civilchallenger
But, in the modern times, there is a much bigger threat to our right to free speech by so-called "gay rights activists" than there is to the right to gay romance from "anti-gay activists".

Discrimination, harassment, intimidation, libel, slander, and abuse - so-called "fighting words" - are not actually modes of protected speech. Remember, free speech is that you can say whatever the hell damn fool thing you want to say. It offers no guarantee that you will not be held responsible for what you say

Look how someone was arrested for saying nothing more than "homosexuality is a sin" in 2007:
www.telegraph.co.uk...

Except the article plainly states that he was arrested for harassment and disturbing the peace. The defendant is trying to claim he was arrested for his religious views, in an effort to get the case tossed out. Do we perhaps have a video recording of the confrontation?

When is the last time someone was arrested for being gay in a modernized country? Years ago?

For the specific charge of being gay? Well, there's Nikolai Alekseev, leader of the Moscow Pride organization who was arrested for no discernable reason, assaulted and abused for hi prientation while in custody, in September 2010. And if you're going by GDP rather than any sort of murky "know it when I see it" definition of "modernized," both Uganda and Bahrain have experienced a large number of anti-homosexual arrests. Prior to the 2003 court decision in Lawrence v. Texas, a great number of US states had anti-sodomy laws expressly for the purpose of arresting homosexuals.

However, yes, actual arrests for homosexuality are rare. Mob beatings and overt discrimination are far more prevalent.

When is the last time someone was arrested for saying "being homosexual is a sin"? 2007. Therefore there should be a greater concern about being able to simply state an opinion about what is wrong and what isn't, than there is for gay being being disallowed from engaging in their lifestyle.

Well, again, that's not what he was arrested for.

And to reiterate, "Homosexuality is a sin" is a statement that carries a lot of baggage with it. It's sort of like when people wonder why it's so bad to call a black person "n*gger." You may think it's "just a word" or, in the case of "homosexuality is a sin," just a phrase, but in both cases there is a LOT of blood and abuse soaked into it. "Homosexuality is a sin" has been the justification for rape, murder, beating, abuse, arson, police violence, and political intimidation. This phrase - and its adherents in the US - is directly causing the deaths of gay people in Uganda, Malawi, and Nigeria.

So a gay person - or anyone, really - is quite entitled to ask you to not say that. If you insist on persisting, it's harassment. 'Course that applies to pretty much every case where a person keeps pestering you despite your attempts to get them to leave you alone.

Most of the time on ATS when homosexuality is mentioned by Christians, and you can look up "homosexuality is a sin" for your self to confirm this, that ("gay is a sin") really is all that is being said. And in my personal conversation with other conservative Christians that is basically all that is said as well.

Context is everything. Really, many ATS readers / posters need to learn how to use language better. Understanding words, statmeents, the history of phrases and intentions and agendas of speakers, makes things a LOT more informative than just taking each word as an individual unrelated noise.

Of course there is the schoolyard bullying that happens to homosexuals but its pretty much the same kind of bullying that also happens to conservative Christian kids who don't fit in either these days.

Really? Please back up this statement of conservative christian kids getting bullied at the same level as gay children - or those perceived to be gay. Please also supply suicide statistics for these poor oppressed Christian kids.

And while it is true that Christian conservatives are against gays being allowed to get a marriage license, thats about the extent of it.

You really think so, huh? Well, first off, that in itself is senseless hate-based discrimination and political abuse against a minority group. Second, an examination of other political causes espoused by conservative Christians will reveal that it's never a case of "that's the extent of it." Take abortion. We've gone from "Conservative Christians want some restrictions on late-term abortions" to yesterday's proposal in south Dakota that anyone who might harm an unborn child in any way deserves to be murdered.

If you think the anti-gay movement is just going to stop at marriage, you're sorely mistaken. Just look around ATS a bit. There are a few threads where people - I have no idea if they're Christians, but I guess most are - are up in arms against the "it Gets Better" ad campaign. If you're unaware, this is a campaign that urges children and teenager to not take their own lives in response to bullying; the primary statistic is among gay children and teens, and those abused as such, though the campaign speaks to all children and teenagers. And people are pissed about it because it offers encouraging voices to gay kids. These people want those kids to kill themselves.

Personally I don't believe in getting permission from the state to marry and therefore I do not believe in marriage licenses. Therefore the number of people allowed to be married by the state is largely irrelevant to me.

Well, it should be relevant. What harms your neighbor today harms you tomorrow.

I believe the more church-going conservative Christians you know the more you will realize that when they say "homosexuality is a sin" it actually is just that most of the time and very rarely anything more. Most of the "gay-bashing" that goes on is not done by the Christian conservative crowd, but the teenage bully crowd.

There's a difference? Sorry, you can't play the "no true scotsman" card here.

reply to post by Oklastatefan

Don't judge lest ye be judged?

I don't HAVE to resort to my judgment. It's not my judgment.

The Creator Himself SAID it was an abomination. His house, His judgment, His rules.

Take it up with HIM.

reply to post by FarArcher


Give me his number and mailing address and I will. Thanks in advance!

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

It's a personal belief, but you'll have your shot before you know it.

Much too soon.

reply to post by civilchallenger

civilchallenger, you may wish to note that when the Shah of Iran fell, one of the very first things the new regime did was to round up all known and suspected gays.

You may also note that Iran claims there are no gays in Iran. I tend to believe that as a matter of practicality!

What's so hilarious, or ironic, is that the "permissive," "liberal," "tolerant," "accepting" groups that want homosexuality to be widely accepted in societies, are the same mind-sets that want tolerance for all minorities, including Islam, and their BS.

Yet when these Islamic fundamentalists get control, the very first ones they round up to execute are the ones who were preaching toleration and acceptance!

It's a hoot!

Sharia law.

Says it all.

Originally posted by FarArcher
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

civilchallenger, you may wish to note that when the Shah of Iran fell, one of the very first things the new regime did was to round up all known and suspected gays.

You may also note that Iran claims there are no gays in Iran. I tend to believe that as a matter of practicality!

What's so hilarious, or ironic, is that the "permissive," "liberal," "tolerant," "accepting" groups that want homosexuality to be widely accepted in societies, are the same mind-sets that want tolerance for all minorities, including Islam, and their BS.

Yet when these Islamic fundamentalists get control, the very first ones they round up to execute are the ones who were preaching toleration and acceptance!

It's a hoot!

Sharia law.

Says it all.

The reason why Iran claims that it has no more homosexuals is because they have implemented a program where one partner in a same-sex couple is forced to go through a sex change procedure. Others have fled the country and are asking for refugee status in more accepting countries.

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
reply to post by civilchallenger

 

We are commanded to love our neighbors, be a light in this world, reprove sin, be the salt of the earth.

Do you know what happens to salted earth?

It's a common war tactic from past times. Salt the earth so your enemies cannot grow anything.

reply to post by Kailassa


Salt also had curative properties to people in the past. Think about that for a while.

reply to post by 547000


So did leeches and tinctures of arsenic. And laudanum, hoo, whatever problem you had, opiate whiskey would cure you right up; or at least make you not give a damn about your festering goiters.

reply to post by FarArcher


Well, how about you keep your personal beliefs to your person? It might do everyone a world of good.