The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity & Islam.

reply to post by Lucifer777

Thus if there is a Christian who is a "loving" person, it is in spite of the example of Jesus, and not because of him, since if a person were to follow the teachings and religion of Jesus they would have to transform themselves into a genocidal religious fanatic and a bigot, cursing those who did not believe in him to eternal hell.

did you ever think to wonder that what Jesus was saying to the Jews ....was specifically formated and wrapped in the words and knowledge of Judaism so as to speak "their" language...... of course he had to use their terms of beliefs in order to get them to listen ....it doesnt in anyway reflect that he himself was, "religious fanatic and a bigot, cursing those who did not believe in him to eternal hell. "

It was Judaism and the conformists of that religion who killed him ...he was super anti-establishment, anti-ego, anti-dogmatic religion ...... etc. All he talked about was having a direct experience of God like what he had ....when he experience, then living within the confines of enlightenment become automatic ....then its easy because there is no ego...

I really have no idea how the heck you came to the conclusion of "religious fanatic and a bigot, cursing those who did not believe in him to eternal hell. "

Personally I consider myself a loving person and I like to be surrounded by other loving persons, and since every song on the radio is a love song, it is "love" which seems to be a major focus of the human mind; however this has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity; Christians do not have a monopoly on love; in fact from a study of the centuries' long history of the Jesus business it would seem to me that there has been a distinct shortage of love in that religion and that they have rather attempted to monopolise hatred and bigotry "in the name of love."

Ok cool ..... I agree completely with this statement...... however lets put it into context. The heart and core of Christianity is ego death, Love, and forgiveness of sins (not to mention experiencing God directly) .....and very few get "there" ....most are working their way there and there is sooooo many traps along the way.

So you're seemingly taking those that arent there yet, those that justify evil in the name of God and the Bible, and using bad examples to exemplify the whole

Love is probably the central hypnotic keyword in religious hypnosis; however no matter how many times you use that word, it will never transform that 2000 year old fake healer into a model of love, nor will it transform his followers if they are using Jesus as their model of an almost perfectly intolerant bigot and religious fanatic.

funny thing .... the thought of a rock is not an actual rock. So just like what-ever you think of Jesus, is nothing close to what Jesus was or is...... it is simply the mind painting pictures over reality.

Not only that .....in the deeper levels of Gnosis and enlightenment ....you come to find that you are not the mind, you are nothing close of what you think yourself to be. This is common sense and is somewhat one of the highest principals discovered in basic logic, reason, and ontology and has been discussed by some of the greatest minds in philosophy...... plato, nietzsche, socrates, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, empedocles, etc.

There are 2 Christianities..... an exoteric and an esoteric.
The exoteric produces That which you are attacking. Incomplete individuals, separation, ego, elitist, justifying falsities, pedophile priests, etc....

The esoteric produces: individuals who directly experience what Jesus experienced, God, the Absolute, divine realities, mystical experiences, unity, Love of everyone including strangers, ...which at the onset of these experiences proves to the experiencer that Jesus was genuine.

And I will finish off with this: Were you to have even a 1 second glimpse of the realities that some of these Esoteric Christians experience daily ...just one little glimpse...... it would be enough to directly destroy all of your assumptions, attacks, frames of reference. It would leave you in complete and utter AWE like a child seeing the vastness of space.

We're the seeds that need to flower forth and bear fruit. Every one of us came to do good things, and overcome any faults left within us. Earth is a school not a prison, we're imprisoning ourselves by allowing the elite to dim our consciousness and what we know in our hearts from young age, is love, is gentleness, kindness, equality, right from wrong, white squares from dark. We need to overcome this for we will have memories restored and will feel so much sorrow if we're not helping our family here, or have murdered, hurt, impoverished, starved, dropped bombs on, and walked away from any of them in need. Its something we need to overcome, all of this, For while all that is True Love and Goodness loves us unconditionally, They do not love the crimes we are committing on each other.

We're here not to bring Heaven to earth, but to bring Earth To Heaven, which is what I see the Parable of the Sower and the Ascension, to seek to see with eyes of Love and overcome the duality. To ask for healing of our sight, and seek to purify our own elements to light, and overcome the gravity program of duality here, its metaphor as well.

There is only goodness ahead for those who are doing good, for those are growing in love, there will be love, and great goodness in the beyond. There is nothing here in the world that is worth it, its nothingness. It doesnt count. People count, their well being and happiness and equality. Perfecting our ways of relating to others, overcoming our harshness, our discord, and finding ways to be kind and good. Thats what counts.

To Infinity and Beyond, and Jesus showed the way, where dreams do come true, where we are gifts to each other completely, where we are prospered in our equality and kindness. Where we can be on 100% service to other missions, and yet be enjoying our vacation with Family. For this No Time, and its but a program, a time clip in a roll of film, a frequency, a locale if you will, somewhere in Infinity. To be helping those here, and then have a million years with loved ones, and return one second later to that locale from which you were helping, its all possible, in fact its what will happen when we bring Earth To Heaven.

Jesus shows us the way, not as a seeker, but from One Who Had Found That Which He Sought, Incarnating To Shine The Way To Heaven For Us.

reply to post by Unity_99


The fibonacci spiral



The mandelbrot set



Science uses mathematics to understand nature. Nature is mathematics. There is no need to anthropomorphize or personify the force behind the mathematics, it is clear that it is not omnipotent, it does not intervene.

Nature doesn't care. Nature has no "soul" or understanding of that which we possess. We are but a part of it's construction. See the "Epicurean Paradox"

And in regards to religion or "theism" see "Euthyphro dilemma"

Perhaps then the "Atheist's Wager"

We thought up God, whether he exists or doesn't exist, we conjured his descriptions, especially in religion. It's an assumption, a scientific assumption based on causation.

Reality could potentially be infinite. Simply labelling infinity as "GOD" is just a stance from pantheism.

It's about time we drop the silly non-sensical dogma, and apply some progressive thinking. God may or may not exist, but some people need drop the dogma and the child indoctrination. What is especially disgusting is the religious infrastructures, that they can make up this nonsensical fallacy and accumulate wealth, power and buildings.

And people wonder why some of us are concerned that people are being deluded.

We can rely on each other, we always have done, we wouldn't get this far if we wernt a cooperative species. If God was proved wrong tommorow, we'd still have to work towards a better society. We don't need dogma, we don't need God to appreciate altruism and love.

Originally posted by inforeal
reply to post by Lucifer777

 

Your analyses again I repeat is based on you own pre-conceived notions
You avoided completely the links I gave you and quote links by Islamic haters who are liars and slanderers.

It is not necessary to "lie" and "slander" Mohammad, since the quotations I cited were from the Koran.

If an anti-Islam Internet site prints the numerous passages from the Koran which promote slavery, the fact that the author of the site is opposed to the Koran is irrelevant, if he is simply quoting from the Koran.

I should point out that not only does the Koran promote slavery through the "purchase" of slaves and warfare, but this practice has been part of the long history of Islam, especially in the African continent where it was commonplace for Islamic slave traders to castrate their captive male slaves, cut out their tongues and use their women as sex slaves. The practice of Islamic slavery still continues to this day.

You went to the first evangelical Islamic hater with your answer to my post and all you do is repeat the lies they write.

Contradiction is a poor substitute for intelligent argument; I merely cited quotations from the Koran which promote slavery; it is not sufficient for you to merely claim they are "lies;" such quotations are taken directly from the Koran.

You lack any real genuine scholarship or information other than superficial analyses from Islamic hating sites who distort information to suit there own biases.

Compare my links with truth to yours


I have given you well known scholars and wiki links and you give me sites from bigots.

It seems to me that Mohammad "was" the living definition of a bigot.

That proves the extent of your knowledge is wanting and based on ignorance.


My links prove that MUHAMMAD FREED SLAVES.

"Manumission (freeing slaves)" for various reasons does not negate the fact that Mohammad's first wife was a proffessional slave trader and that Mohammad promoted the institution of slavery and warfare for the purpose of capturing slaves. If a slave trade frees one of his slaves, that is hardly an argument against slavery.

He never claimed to abolish it because slavery is was ingrained in pre-modern times that it would have been impossible to do it.

Yes slavery has been ingrained in human history, however this is the 21st century and Muslims believe that their illiterate slave trader mentor was the "Last Prophet" and that his laws are "final" and infallible. Islam is not merely a religion, but a system of government and law, which Muslims around the world wish to replace all governemnts with, which would effectively legalise slavery and sex slavery (polygamous marriage).

Also Lucifer, what proves your information is filled with misinformation is the fact that you go to an anti-Muslim CHRISTIAN site to get slander on Islam and at the same time you also condemn Christianity!

Christianity and Islam are the two greatest ideological threats to humankind, never the less if a Christian cites the Koran, that does mean that such passages are not taken from the Koran. Both the Christians and the Muslms have "End Times" prophecies predicting the total military defeat of all other religions, and such prophecies could only be invoked by the use of nuclear weapons and andvanced weaponry; both prophecies cannot come true, and I think it inevitable that their will come a state of total warfare between the two religions; these two religions are thus not merely a harmless hobby, they represent an apocalyptic threat to humankind.
.

Imagine what that site would say about your religion!

I may have certain philosophical and spiritual beliefs, but I can assure you that I do not belong to "any" organised religion and that I am entirely anti-religious and an ideological Communist.

Lux

......the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.

The profane existence of error is compromised as soon as its heavenly oratio pro aris et focis [“speech for the altars and hearths,” i.e., for God and country] has been refuted. Man, who has found only the reflection of himself in the fantastic reality of heaven, where he sought a superman, will no longer feel disposed to find the mere appearance of himself, the non-man [Unmensch], where he seeks and must seek his true reality.

The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. Karl Marx

It is from this exoteric sea of religion that often the lower developmental human, though he has a degree of spirituality through ordinary faith, indulges in anti-human activity e.g. wars, slavery, plunder, etc.

But that’s got nothing necessarily to do with the religious faith of these people. There actions are based on their low level of psychological development, not there faith, and it doesn’t matter whether they have a faith in a religion or not, they would have likely been doing the negative things they do even if they believed in the Wizard of Oz as God and the tooth fairy.

Non Islamic and Christian people who were not monotheists were doing the same negative stuff that exoteric religionists did under Islam and Christianity long before Christianity or Islam ever existed.

Sargon the Great, the Babylonians, the ancient Egyptians, the Sumerians, and ALL of the ancients before monotheism all of a pagan religion, conquered, enslaved, raped, murdered, stole, and committed genocide, indeed the same old evil stuff, long before Judaism, Christianity, or Islam ever existed.


Religion was an attempt to modify and begin the long process of change in the outlook
of humanity.

You critique Muhammad not knowing he was persecuted severely by the Arabs at that time. He came from a pre-modern civilization where he sacrificed his life to give knowledge to all and rectify the errors that had crept into the exoteric philosophy of Christianity and Judaism and brought a universal underpinning in the concept of God to humanity.

Here is a letter from Muhammad to the Christians:

www.cyberistan.org...

In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them.
Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.
Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.
If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.
No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

Now show me any figure from ancient times with such tolerance than exists in this letter written in the 7th century, towards another faith or another race.

Imagine any Pope writing such a thing to a different religion in that time or after

Lucifer go do some more research

reply to post by inforeal


Not at all. Religion predisposes people to prejudice such as inferiority complexes in regards to homosexuals and even women in some cases (The bible and koran or "GOD" equate women to that of domesticated animal) Sharia law forbids women in the law court. And punishment for apostasy in some countries is DEATH.

Religion deludes people with prejudice, it fuels them with false hope and false fear (Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation) It's a metaphysical dishonesty on the part of religion. You'll finder greater rationality of metaphysical theories such as "the multiverse" or "the 4th dimension" - Still unprovable though.

Religion is man-made, not God-made. For that reason alone, i don't trust it - Because there's no evidence (logical or emprical) for the existence of a deity. Science can be improved until truth is found. Religion can only be proved wrong when it's logical inaccuracies have been verified, and some of them already have been. Religion is not truth, don't put your faith in groups and industries of deception; this includes Fortune Telling and Astrology.

And i'm sorry if you feel offended, that's my opinion on religion; and it's NOT free from criticism, despite some people actually thinking it demands respect.

Why should irrational belief systems be respected? Especially when relayed to suggestible minds such as children?

Originally posted by Lucifer777
His religion was not Christianity, but fundamentalist Judaism; he promoted strict adherence to the primitive and savage Judaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) and the "Prophets (thought to be the oral Judaic tradition which was later written down as the Talmud);" a form of theocratic legalism which would probably result in the genocide of practically the entire human race for numerous executionable offences, inlcuding failing to worship only the primitive tribal deity of a bunch of genocidal Bronze Age savages and religious fanatics.

When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son?

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

love rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

how's them cherries Lucy?

Originally posted by superluminal11
reply to post by Lucifer777

 

You forgot Judaism.

Judaism

Judaism is not a major world religion, whereas Christianity and Islam have hundreds of millions of adherents.

It is estimated that out of a global population of 7 billion people, that there are only around 13 to 14 million Jewish people (see www.simpletoremember.com...), and the "vast" majority of them are non religious, particularly among the younger generation, there are probably more Jewish Communists, socialists and Anarchists than there are religious fanatics among the Jewish people. The Jewish people are probably among the most educated ethnic group in the world, and generally the higher the education level of a person, the less likely they are to be religious.

Zion. Armageddon, swords to ploughshares and the 1000 Year Agricultrual Revolution: the non miraculous feeding of the 7 billion

Zionism is quite another matter, since it is a political ideology and it is also manifested in a nation state which despite it's small population is a nuclear power. Most of the Israeli military and political elites are entirely secular and modernists. Frankly if it is a choice between the expansion of the current Captialist Zionist model in the Middle East or the expansion of Islam, I would have to defend Zionism in it's current form, despite my criticisms of the Capitalist nature of modern Zionism.

Since there are Muslims debating on this site, in all fairness to them I should probably "out" myself as a Zionist, I am an Israeli Communist by political ideology. I believe that Israeli Communism (collectivism / kibbutzism) is the ideal Communist model for the future world and the solution to the problem of global economic impoverishment.

The Israeli military establishment are totally genocidal; all it would take is a major attack on Israel and I would not put it past the Israelis to nuke the entire Islamic world. The Islamic world has two choices, one is to abandon Islam and the other is to face eventual apocalyptic extermination. It will not be my doing; I am just a propagandist; I am just the warning before the storm.

Words are weapons. Propaganda is the First Stage of War.

Lux
Apres mois le deluge

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Actually, I don’t like religion either necessarily, and believe me; I am not offended by you hating religion. I understand religion and you don’t.

I also have problems with pre-modern ideas in religion and hope that in Islam and other religions that are still stuck in pre-modern times; they will completely modernize somewhat without loosing their souls like in the west, with the crime, immorality and hedonism.

But I don’t blame religion like you and Lucifer for evils I blame people for it.
Look at my post about the fact that what people like you condemn about religion went on long before western religion was on the scene.

Ancient Rome destroyed, enslaved and raped, robbed, murdered as well many ancient cultures long before western religious ideology came about.

You guys neglect that in your arguments and also forget about all the great people inside of religion, particularly the esoteric aspect of it where you have great people like Rumi, Ibn Arabi, and many other Sufis and the many Christian and Jewish mystics who were known people of wisdom.

There are millions of good people in religion, particularly of an esoteric kind who don’t do the things you mention.

So when you say all Islam sucks you forget Rumi was a Muslim cleric. You forget there ar many people like him who have nothing to do with the evils that you and your friend Lucifer talk about that some so-called Muslims have done and are doing, yet you associate them with these deeds.
That is unjust, unfair and illogical.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

The bible..or "GOD" equate women to that of domesticated animal

When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created(in the image of God).

in Christ (the last Adam) there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female

For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law

he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife

The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

reply to post by inforeal

without loosing their souls like in the west, with the crime, immorality and hedonism.

I don't know what you mean by this. And you can't correlate lack of belief with crime or immorality. With capitalism in the west, comes poverty and crime. Those who are poor commit crime, and those who are rich want more, and commit crime to aquire more. Education and community is another issue, it's more complicated though; It's not lack of belief that is the problem. It is the free market monetary system and our social tendancies in general.

Sweden has a majority of non-believers, it still has similar crime rates as other countries in the West, in some cases it's much lower. You can't correlate belief systems to crime rates, there are a number of social, cultural causes. Some tribes don't have religion but are extremely placid and altruistic.

You guys neglect that in your arguments and also forget about all the great people inside of religion, particularly the esoteric aspect of it where you have great people like Rumi, Ibn Arabi, and many other Sufis and the many Christian and Jewish mystics who were known people of wisdom.

That's great. Religion does motivate charity, peace and others great acts in some cases. But religion or belief does not have a monopoly over altruistic acts.

There are many secular charities, many of it's volunteers do not hold a belief in God.

The "good" philosophy in religion does not make up for the "bad" or immoral philosophy and teaching. And even the "good" philosophy should be subject to improvement for the benefit of our civilisation. To prevent prejudice and disagreement.

There are millions of good people in religion, particularly of an esoteric kind who don’t do the things you mention.

Again, my concern is not individual members of any religion. It's the religious ideology that predisposes good people to do and say bad things. Just because "bible said so" doesn't make it true for example.

So when you say all Islam sucks you forget Rumi was a Muslim cleric.

Islam does suck. You know why i'm not afraid to say that? Because i believe in free speech and i DON'T believe Islam deserves respect.

Again, i don't judge "Rumi"'s individual character. Only the core ideology of the faith he was a cleric for. (and what it causes people to do or justify)

Can any person of belief name a moral act that an Atheist can't do, that a religious person can?



Inforeal, do you accept the challenge?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware


And i'm sorry if you feel offended, that's my opinion on religion; and it's NOT free from criticism, despite some people actually thinking it demands respect.

Why should irrational belief systems be respected? Especially when relayed to suggestible minds such as children?

Undeserved Respect

Richard Dawkins in the "God Delusion" has a sub-chapter entitled "Undeserved Respect;" to paraphrase his view; it is simply an attack on the inclusion of "respecting religious belief" in modern political correctness.

Political correctness is essentially a "misnomer (a false definition), since it is not at all about "correct politics" or promoting one political philosophy over another; it is really about "ethical (how we treat each other)" correctness. Part of what Dawkins refers to as the modern moral zeitgeist (the spirit of the age) are ethically correct attitudes such as respecting people who are of a different race, a different sexuality, gender equality, etc. These are all good attitudes, however respecting other religions and cultures is entirely another matter.

I would consider myself to be European cultrual supremacist since I have travelled the world and I find Europe to be very much a social paradise in comparison to most parts of the world. I just recently returned from an Islamic country in Africa (Senegal) where they have a habit of practicing female genital mutilation on women and when I got into a conversation about this practice I found that I was being accused of being a white European who was trying to impose my cultural beliefs on Africans (I plead guilty). What also takes place is what is called "Pharoahic circumcision (since the ancient Egyptians practiced this also)" where not only is the clitorous cut out, but the vagina is almost totally sewn up to prevent the possibility of intercourse until the girl is sold to her future husband, who on the wedding night, literally cuts open the woman's vagina with a razor blade; it is said that one can hear the screams of the women on their wedding night all around the village. More on: www.irinnews.org...

Respecting barbaric cultures and religions should "not" be part of "ethical correctness;" on the contrary; it should be part of ethical correctness to attack and criticise the barbarism and inhumanity of primitive religions and cultures. Why should we "respect" religions which are homophobic, misogynistic (hatred of women), paternalistic (male supremacist) and which promote slavery, sex slavery, Holy War and bigotry?

Lux

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Can any person of belief name a moral act that an Atheist can't do, that a religious person can?

1. Experience the Absolute and abide by that selflessly
2. Transcendentally Love everyone equally regardless of creed, culture, gender, etc.
3. The act of completely surrendering the ego in the void of the Absolute into a permanent basis and living selflessly

4. I can keep going for pages at a time ......but I think the point is made.

reply to post by Lucifer777

I would consider myself to be European cultrual supremacist since I have travelled the world and I find Europe to be very much a social paradise in comparison to most parts of the world.

Thats funny ...because when I traveled to most of Europe and visited the museums, pubs, intellectual circles, common folk, etc ..... I found just as much stupor, drunkenness, pride, subjectivity, bias, and folks living in their own bubbles .....just as much as I find here in the states....

it just seems to be a different kind of ignorance ...a kind that prides itself in a long history and a certain european feel of life ...and yet the same universal egoic traits are there, albeit wrapped up in the Euro package.

reply to post by Lucifer777


Thanks for expanding my point more. Much more informative and concise

Genital mutilation is wicked, we can't highlight this for fear of disrespect of "Holy orders". Well it's about time that zeitgeist changed. It's long overdue.

Hitchens on genital mutilation;



Another frustration of mine; It really was a shame that more people didn't turn up to boycott the Pope with Dawkins not so long ago in the UK. For someone who has such a sinister past; and even the wickedness to suggest "Condoms are worse than aids".

One of my favourite quotes is:-

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest

Denis Diderot - French man of letters and philosopher, 1713-1784

reply to post by awake_and_aware


As you say religion sucks, so does Hitchens, a so called progressive who supported the Iraq war.

My point on morality has nothing to do with the fact that atheists are moral. I being also of the Buddhist tradition don’t slam atheism.

So I don’t disagree with the premise to a degree that atheists can be moral.

My idea of hedonism is a reality when people go form a religion to a non religious mentality, often they can, like in the west,-- where one can’t deny the hedonistic culture if they are honest-- of drugs, sex and alcohol; just look at TV and movies with the sex and violence.
Countries like Sweeden, Switzerland, Netherlands are homogeneous cultures that have evolved to a certain degree of internal peace for factors beyond reliigon imo.
But your point on poverty I agree with.

My whole concept in debating guys like you and Lucifer is not from an Islamic perspective, since I am not a formal practicing Muslim. I practice what is termed Integral Metaphysics.

This philosophy believes that all religions, cultures, and ideologies, including BTW atheism, have merit and can be learned from.

We don’t go around marginalizing people and calling them names for their traditions.

Though we do denounce all kinds of anti-human activity; that has been done and can be done by any human being no matter what hey believe.

What matters is their moral and psychological development, that doesn’t have to have nothing to do with religion.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Genital mutilation is wicked, we can't highlight this for fear of disrespect of "Holy orders". Well it's about time that zeitgeist changed. It's long overdue. Hitchens on genital mutilation

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

reply to post by dominicus

1. Experience the Absolute and abide by that selflessly

No one can prove or "experience" absolute morality. We can prove and experience absolutes though

(absolute facts such as the earth being an oblate spheroid or that humans die if they leave earth's atmostphere).

I think what you mean here is they cannot obey objective moral commandmants or mindlessly respect authority?

A non-religious person can still believe (or "experience") absolute/objective morality anyway. - They just don't pretend it's handed down from "on-high"

2. Transcendentally Love everyone equally regardless of creed, culture, gender, etc.

An atheist can do this, doesn't require dogmatic or pios belief, nor does it require belief in a creator.

3. The act of completely surrendering the ego in the void of the Absolute into a permanent basis and living selflessly

Not sure if this is a "moral" act but an Atheist can do this too. Ego has nothing to do with Atheism, Atheism's ideology consists of one lack of belief; a lack of belief in a deity.

4. I can keep going for pages at a time ......but I think the point is made.

No please, do keep going - I will respond to your points. Religion does not have a monopoly over morality.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Whatever ones term for God is, there is a reality to this Holographic Universe and its an Infinite System, of Eternal Progression. There are Higher Ups watching over and they note the bullies on the playground who are stealing the other childrens lunches and care very deeply everyone including the bullies.

There is no other reality. There is evidence for this hologram too from 2d printer type pixels, and strange things when they study space, to discovering that the void contains a huge infinity, and then it just takes putting on your deep thinking cap from then on, or having some experiences as well. Deep thinkers and experiencers are used to having others think they've lost it. Deep thinkers and experiences suggest to the rest, to start to seek, they will find. The answers will be given if you have unconditional love and genuine concern for others, in meditation, prayer, sungazing and skywatching.

And when you pray to have insight given, and for your sight to be healed as well, with your frequency raising, you'll start to see things in the scriptures you hadn't noticed before ,and fuller understanding will come.

This school is all about Love.