Billy Mier contact [hoax]

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Sorry i cant watch videos its a little too expensive on wireless, but thanks anyways....
Firstly id like to state that you are something of a phoney having bragged to all and sundry that YOU were going to debunk Billy Meier.
I think it was your superior intelligence comment which decided that this thread be opened.
Specifically at YOUR request, so that you could show us your superior whit and intelligence. (still awaiting same)To the present, your compatriots have trotted out way better evidence that YOU, and i truely have seen no evidence for YOUR superior intelligence but your self claims.
Billy Meier may or may not have been a contactee.
The question remains open to that matter,but in regards to the debunking work of others, some passes, some doesnt.
For instance, the claims that the photos were hoaxed may be true, and they even discovered a model of a beamship at one time at meiers farm.
I have gotten far beyond billy Meier stuff by now, having followed it through the years. i must admit that he did or must have hoaxed material.
I have never really doubted that fact.
It has however amused me no end to see that YOU ,jay, seem rather bereft of this super intelligence than you were bragging about.
I expected that you woild have some proofs of your very own at least, but all you can do is to parrot the work of smarter people than yourself.
It has always been my own theory that Billy was desperate to keep his much smaller story alive and needed all kinds of two armed help on his farm.
So...what was a poor swiss to do?
he probably wanted the recognition and the help around the place, as they lived in some pretty crude digs way back.
How on earth a one armed dude could have pulled this off alone, is hard to imagine, but aparently he did.

There are a few remarkable features to billys story that still make me shake my head though....
One of them is his ability to spin the tales which were quite complicated and very much to a point which actually make a lot of sense for humanity.
perhaps it was his eastern journeys which taught him some snippets of ancient common sense, but he has made some valid comments about us and our headlong rush to oblivion.
His warnings however faked, were pertinent and sometimes right on the money,
Too bad even a broke clock is right twice a day.....
As for you jay sorry no evidence of any superiority so far buddy, and it would be a good idea not to brag yourself up so high and then expect everyone else to come up with what you promised.
meantime, you got your Billy Meier thread, and your chance to obliterate an argument which you failed as far as this old cowboy is concerned.
As far as billy meier goes, well hes been old hat for a long long time now.
The new kids on the block are the Transcendors...................


There is much to Billys words which is worth mulling over and taking away with you if you let go of that hate which you so happily harbour within you .Perhaps that is the message........
With that i yield the point that yes there were hoaxed elements to billy meiers tale.
Perhaps nothing he told us was real, yet what he did say had some fairly good lessons in it for us.

Originally posted by stirling
Billy Meier may or may not have been a contactee.

How will you ever know since you're apparently unable to watch video online. Or, apparently only devote what precious video bandwidth is available to you for productions designed to fool the gullible.

One of them is his ability to spin the tales which were quite complicated and very much to a point which actually make a lot of sense for humanity.

By your standard, the vast majority of science fiction writers must also be Pleiadian contactees

Too bad even a broke clock is right twice a day.....

And a straw man is made of straw.

reply to post by stirling


Can't view the video's because of bandwidth lol give me a break!!!

Your excuses are quite frankly stupid. Yes i have posted evidence that this case is a hoax. Because i did not make models and replicate his photos and footage, that means i don't have a say in the case? I believe you can view the video's. I believe you don't have an answer for them, and thats why you are pretending that you can't view them.

I can't believe your excuse. I mean, are you coming onto this thread with your own evidence that some of the meier stuff is real, no, you are not. You believe in the meier case because what you have read and watched, and not your own investigation.

Also, i have never said i am super intelligent, and i know there are people on this board with far more knowledge than me, so i don't know why you keep on going on about "superior intelligence " rubbish.

So, you think that part of the case is real because of what billy has to say about the world, and where it is going. Here is a news flash for you. Many people are concerned about the world, and where is is heading, but the difference is, these people don't feel the need to make hoax photos,footage,sounds and predictions of ET to get there point across.

At the end of the day, you are a very gullible person, who will never outright say that everything about this case is a joke. Some of the meier footage and photos are some of the worst i have ever seen. I mean, have you seen the wedding cake photos and footage!!!!! lol

Im sorry that you thought that when i said i would debated with you, that you thought that meant me making model ufo's and hanging them by a bit of string like meier done lol

That being said, i have posted plenty of stuff that proves that meier is nothing but a fraud, and a cult leader followed by gullible and easily led people with nothing better to do than be drawn into a complete fantasy.

I think the Meier Case is great. I love the photos, and the films, the pro-Meier film docus. The books. I like to read and watch the pro and con material. To me, it's great entertainment. I liken it somwhat to pro-wrestling. And I am glad it's here. I also don't think there is anything 'wrong" with it. The "teachings" are not bad. And I think in it's own way, it does open us up more for when the real thing arrives. Now, I don't know for fact if Billy was ever really contacted or saw a craft. I do lean on the "evidence" not being real, but I still enjoy the visuals of it, and would rather watch this than dot in the sky. I guess I mean, I don't care if it's real, I think it's a hoot, and I enjoy it. I also enjoy the Adamski case. Maybe I'm not one to take it all so super serious. I think there is a time, and cases to be taken super serious, and others where you just gotta enjoy the ride. I think most people dismiss this case, as not real, even if they got enthralled with it at first. And as such, I don't think it hinders any possibly real cases. In all these years we still have not gotten a "real" case that is an deep as the Meier case. You know what the Meier Case reminds me of, the Eckankar religion(but with some photos and films). It's very similar.

I would just like to see some new, high-definition images, as well as a good catalog of all the original images done with new scans. It's not as if he can't afford it now, with people giving him donations and such. And since the images are such a big part of the message, it seems to me that he would want them to be presented as clearly as possible, if they were true and real. It would be like someone having the True Cross of Jesus, but just standing it over in a corner and using it as a coat rack.

Unlike 30 years ago, there really is no excuse for not presenting nice, clear images these days, other than he doesn't want people to see nice, clear images.

reply to post by Jay-morris


you beat me to it, but here's more for anyone who is still clinging to Meier's hoax...
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by JibbyJedi
reply to post by Jay-morris

 

you beat me to it, but here's more for anyone who is still clinging to Meier's hoax...
www.youtube.com...

edit on 26-1-2011 by JibbyJedi because: (no reason given)

I know, and even Mr horn is under the illusion that the case has not been de-bunked yet. But i guess the way he see's it is this. If there are people out there like the OP, then there is always money to be made.

No matter what Jay your too dense to get the point, so even spelled out for you, it wont sink in.
This is the thread YOU demanded somebody open.
My thread was about some other individual. Capt. Stan Fullham RCAF. deceased recently, having written a book about his UFO research and experiences.You began to snurf off about how stan was full of bullsh&*t because he used channeller to contact alien intelligences.
It was you who mentioned billy meier not i. I believe the words were your superior whit would debunk him in short order.
The very arrogance of postulating a telepathic race of visitors, and then denying their communications is stupid in the extreme.I maintain that not all chanelled information is crap.Not only that but there is a spirituel side to the whole UFO scenario....which is not nor can be measured by your science.
Nor would i begin to denegrate information with which i was not at last familiar.i doubt youd have a hundred bucks to buy the book anyway....
What you proved is that you can do a googgle search.
And in fact i dont even think youve studied the meier case other than to just that.
If mister Horn has misquoted so many other scientists and even put his own words to their mouths, why has no law suit been brought against this rather obvious offense?
There would seem to be a good deal of money in it for the wronged party.....
yet no suit has ever been launched by these misquoted people
As far as i am aware not even to demand a retraction of the statement or correction.....
so........what does that indicate?
I dont believe that Wendel Stevens ever repudiated meier either.
.


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My dad saw the same craft Billy Meier and Bob Lazar claimed to have seen before either one of them came out publicly. I am convinced that both Meier and Lazar are disinfo agents... the best disinfo has truth mixed with fiction.. which is why both guys have elements that make theiir story very believable.. but then at the same time they have both intentionally been debunked.

reply to post by stirling

No matter what Jay your too dense to get the point, so even spelled out for you, it wont sink in.

Sigh! I asked you to open a billy meier thread to have a debate. Not once did i say that i was going to make models, or do experiments to prove that meier is a hoaxer. Why should i go through all that when it has been de-bunked already? And like a typical meier believer, you have ignored all the information i have posted about why this case is a joke

My thread was about some other individual. Capt. Stan Fullham RCAF. deceased recently, having written a book about his UFO research and experiences.You began to snurf off about how stan was full of bullsh&*t because he used channeller to contact alien intelligences.

When did i say it was BS? I said there was no evidence that he was telling the truth, as none of his predictions came true. What i see as evidence, and what you see as evidence are completly different.

It was you who mentioned billy meier not i. I believe the words were your superior whit would debunk him in short order.

I said open up another thread and debate billy meier and see how long you last! Stop putting words into my mouth!

The very arrogance of postulating a telepathic race of visitors, and then denying their communications is stupid in the extreme

How the hell is it stupid? There is no evidence that any of these people are in contact with ET. Please post the evidence that they are in contact with ET?

I maintain that not all chanelled information is crap.Not only that but there is a spirituel side to the whole UFO scenario....which is not nor can be measured by your science.

And you not the real from the fake how? Oh there is a spirituel side lol It did not take humans long to infest this subject with religous views And people wonder why this subject is a joke Why don't you study real ufo cases instead of believe evey person without evidence.

Nor would i begin to denegrate information with which i was not at last familiar.i doubt youd have a hundred bucks to buy the book anyway....

Wht wouldn't i have a hundred buck? I guess you are using your special powers to see into my life and what i do, right?

What you proved is that you can do a googgle search.

How else are you supposed to learn? Before it was with books, and now we have the internet. Its not just about searching online. Its about studying a case from all angles, something you clearly have not done.

I mean, have you made models and footage to see if you can replicate the evidence? I bet the answer is no, but you still come to the conclusion that meier is telling the truth lol

And in fact i dont even think youve studied the meier case other than to just that.

Oh i know a hell of alot more than you about the case, and that clearly shows. You are not fooling anyone here

If mister Horn has misquoted so many other scientists and even put his own words to their mouths, why has no law suit been brought against this rather obvious offense?
There would seem to be a good deal of money in it for the wronged party.....
yet no suit has ever been launched by these misquoted people
As far as i am aware not even to demand a retraction of the statement or correction.....
so........what does that indicate?

This shows just how little you know about the meier case, and proves you will only believe what you want to believe As i don't believe you click on links, i will post the information on here. I have also known a few people that have been in contact with these people to clarify that Mr horn lied and misquoted them. The information is from this Website

Marc Weigert - CEO of Uncharted Territory
One of the "quotes" that Michael Horn routinely uses is regarding the claim that the company responsible for the visual effects in Independence Day and Godzilla could not recreate the look of Meier’s 8mm movies without using Computer Graphics Imagery (CGI).

In the DVD The Silent Revolution Of Truth Michael Horn makes the following statement:

"This is one of the films that the owners of Uncharted Territory, the Academy Award winning special effects house, they viewed this film and determined that it was not a hoax. Uncharted Territory said that if they could duplicate Meier's films they would have to go to CGI to do it because these clearly are not models."
IIG Investigator Derek Bartholomaus emailed one of the owners of Uncharted Territory, Marc Weigert, and this is what he had to say:

From: "Marc Weigert"
Date: January 30, 2008 6:02:11 PM PST
To: "'Derek Bartholomaus'"
Subject: RE: Uncharted Territory website: CGI Quotation Question

Hi Derek,

After discussing it again with my business partner Volker Engel, this is how we remember it:

The statement is kind of correct... But not 100% accurate and a bit simplified.

Looking at the "space capsules", we noted that they DO look like miniature models, very simplistic in design and build. It also seemed weird to us that when you see the design of these UFOs, they seem to be designed based on the ideas of that era. E.g. when you watch a sci-fi movie from the 50s, the design of the UFOs reflect design ideas of the time, and are totally different than a UFO in a movie from 2008. That same look seemed to be the case with the spaceships in the movie. They looked like they were human design from a few decades ago.

But, to reflect on the statement that's in the film, I also remember seeing a shot on the Super8 reel that showed a UFO circling around a fairly tall tree. According to that shot, we said that we can't conclusively say whether it's real or not, but it seemed impossible to stage that kind of a shot with a miniature (it would have to be hanging on a very tall crane, with wires - but even then the movements would be hard to achieve.) So, yes, in regards to that shot, we mentioned that we could definitely do it today with CG, but at the time these were supposedly shot - it would have been very hard, probably even impossible, to fake this kind of shot.

So, to sum it up - we did not say "these are clearly not models".
Mr. Bartholomaus followed up with Marc and told him that the owners of the farmhouse in the film have said that there never was a tree on their property. He also showed Marc the photos of what appears to be the same tree in different locations throughout Switzerland:

Marc then wrote:

From: "Marc Weigert"
Date: January 30, 2008 7:14:47 PM PST
To: "'Derek Bartholomaus'"
Subject: RE: Uncharted Territory website: CGI Quotation Question

Hmm, interesting.
If the tree is a model and it's forced perspective - then you would NOT need CGI to do this shot.

Best,
Marc
IIG Investigator Derek Bartholomaus also spoke with Marc over the phone and Marc said that they "never made a statement that it was real" and that they "do not believe it is real."

A person not affiliated with the IIG by the name of Teri Hayes decided to email Marc Weigert about the statement because Michael Horn has been misquoting his above statements as again somehow being in support of Billy Meier. Here is Teri’s email:

From: Teri Hayes
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 10:03 PM
To: marc
Subject: Uncharted Territory website: The Silent Revolution of Truth video

Mr. Weigert, I am doing a bit of personal research on the validity of claims of 'authenticity' in the new film by Michael Horn. According to his website, www.theyfly.com... you have made the statement, regarding Billy Meier's video which appears in the film and shows an alleged 'beam ship' circling a tree, that "at the time these were supposedly shot - it would have been very hard, probably even impossible, to fake this kind of shot." Mr. Horn uses this statement as a validation of 'authenticity' of the video in question. I was just curious if that was your intent when making this statement that Mr. Horn uses on his website? Thank you, sir, for any attention afforded this question. Have a wonderful night. With great Sincerity, Teri Hayes
Here is Marc’s response:

From: "Marc Weigert / Uncharted Territory"
To: "'Teri Hayes'"
Subject: RE: Uncharted Territory website: The Silent Revolution of Truth video
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 08:13:54 -0700

Hi Teri,

I'm currently getting a lot of questions like yours.
I can tell you it was definitely not our intent to validate the "Authenticity" of Billy Meier's "UFO's". There were actually quite a lot of other things we said, including that the UFOs look suspiciously like models and on top of that, like some 50s or 70s human design.
But, to be fair, we did make the statement about that single shot which we saw on video, transferred from Super8 film. But that this shot would be difficult to achieve doesn't make everything real...

Cheers,
Marc
Professor Donald Hanley - University of Washington Extension Forester

Professor Everett M. Hansen - Oregon State University

Dr. Edward C. Jensen - Oregon State University

Charles E. Fletcher - Oregon State University Associate General Counsel
One of the "quotes" that Michael Horn routinely uses is regarding the veracity of the tree that appears in multiple locations in Switzerland.

In the DVD The Silent Revolution Of Truth Michael Horn makes the following statement:

"Six professors of forestry looked at Meier's photos and looked at the trees and each one determined that the trees are full size mature trees and not models."
The names of the forestry professors are then displayed on-screen for the viewer:

Here is Professor Donald Hanley’s response:

From: Donald Hanley
Date: February 22, 2008 9:02:02 AM PST
To: Derek Bartholomaus
Subject: RE: Forestry Quotation Question

I have no idea how you got my name nor do I wish to comment on these photos. Do not continue to use my name in this fashion.

Don Hanley
WSU Extension Forester
Here is Professor Everett M. Hansen’s response:

From: Everett Hansen
Date: February 25, 2008 11:51:41 AM PST
To: Derek Bartholomaus
Subject: Re: Fwd: Forestry Quotation Question

I have not "authenticated real trees", or made any other definitive statements about these photos. My observations are being misrepresented, and my name and affiliation are being used without my permission.
Everett Hansen
Here is Professor Edward C. Jensen’s response:

From: "Jensen, Edward C."
Date: February 25, 2008 2:25:11 PM PST
To: , , ,
Cc: "Jensen, Edward C.", "Fletcher, Charles"
Subject: Comment on UFO

Gentlemen:
An estimate of tree height (actually only the top portion of a single particular tree) that I made several years ago in good faith has been taken out of context and misused to purport things that I did not intend. Further, my observations have been misappropriated and misapplied to photographs that I have never seen and situations that I have never reviewed. I want to assure you that I have never purported to authenticate any photos of alleged UFOs for Mr. Deardorff, Mr. Meier, Mr. Horn, or anyone else. Nor have I ever purported to determine the authenticity of any trees in any photos of alleged UFOs for anyone. Mr. Deardorff contacted me some years ago and asked if I could provide information about a tree in a photo that included an alleged UFO. The photo was of poor quality, but I assumed that the tree in the photo was real and gave an estimate of the height of the portion of the tree above the alleged UFO based on that assumption. I did not opine that the tree in the photo was truly real rather than a model, that the alleged UFO was real, or that the photograph was real and unaltered. I certainly have never offered any support to Mr. Deardorff or Mr. Meier for their claims that there are real UFOs or real trees in any photograph. I hope this will end the matter and that neither my name nor that of Oregon State University will be used inaccurately again in connection with these photographs. To this end, I have copied the General Counsel of Oregon State University, and I will direct any further communication about this matter to them. Thank you for your cooperation.

Dr. Edward C. Jensen
Oregon State University
Corvallis, OR 97331
Charles E. Fletcher is the Associate General Counsel of Oregon State University mentioned in Dr. Jensen’s email. IIG Investigator Derek Bartholomaus emailed Mr. Fletcher the following information about Michael Horn’s misquoting of Dr. Jensen:

From: Derek Bartholomaus
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:13 PM
To: Jensen, Edward C.; Fletcher, Charles
Subject: Re: Comment on UFO

Hello Dr. Jensen and Mr. Fletcher.

I do not wish to put you in any sort of "he said/he said" type of situation, but I think you should be fully aware of what Mr. Horn has stated publicly regarding what he claims that Dr. Jensen and other forestry experts have stated regarding the veracity of the tree(s) that appear in the UFO photographs of Eduard Albert "Billy" Meier.

As I stated in my first email to Dr. Jensen there is a new DVD produced by Michael Horn where Mr. Horn states on camera, "Six professors of forestry looked at Meier's photos and looked at the trees and each one determined that the trees are full size mature trees and not models." He then posted the names of the six professors onscreen and Dr. Jensen is one of those names listed.

Dr. Jensen is also mentioned by name on the following websites owned by Michael Horn and James Deardorff:
www.theyfly.com...
www.tjresearch.info...
www.tjresearch.info...

Dr. Jensen is also named in the following press release by Michael Horn and James Deardorff:
www.prweb.com...

Michael Horn has also mentioned Dr. Jensen by name on numerous message board postings. This is just a small sampling:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
pg22#pid3158308
www.abovetopsecret.com...
pg26#pid3166071
www.abovetopsecret.com...
pg32#pid3173486
www.abovetopsecret.com...
pg40#pid3180158

On many other occasions Michael Horn has posted references to the "six professors of forestry" without identifying them specifically by name, but the names are easy to determine based on the number of prior postings of the people's names.

If there is anything I can do to be of further assistance in this matter please let me know.

Sincerely,

Derek Bartholomaus
Independent Investigations Group
www.iigwest.org
Mr. Fletcher then replied with the following:

From: "Fletcher, Charles"
Date: February 26, 2008
To: "Derek Bartholomaus"
Cc: "Jensen, Edward C."
Subject: RE: Comment on UFO

Thank you, Mr. Bartholomaus, for that helpful information. Your efforts in correcting others' mistakes is laudable. But as to making use of your information directly, I think OSU would prefer to distance itself from this entirely.

Charles E. Fletcher
Associate General Counsel
Oregon State University


Go and contact them yourselve if you doubt what they are saying. But you mind is made up, and i know you wull not bother

reply to post by stirling

I dont believe that Wendel Stevens ever repudiated meier either.

Please explain how you came to this conclusion? Also, its a bit annoying that you are completly ignoring the evidence i have posted on this thread. But i knew you would find it har to have a debate because the truth is, your belief has nade you blind to the evidence that proves that meier is a complete hoax. Not one photo, not obe piece of footage shows an ET craft. Just models on a string, or stuck to a midel tree

I have seen replications of the Meier UFO models and footage, and I think as far as replicating the images and films, it has been done, and done just as well visually as the originals, if not better in some aspects. And with only models and wire(thread, string, lines). But, I also think just because something can be replicated, it does not mean it's fake. While, I do consider myself a fan of the Meier case, I do lean more towards it being models. I am a fan, not because I am a "true believer", but because I derive much entertainment from the case, and I like the idea it presents, even if it's not "true".

Originally posted by tom502
I have seen replications of the Meier UFO models and footage, and I think as far as replicating the images and films, it has been done, and done just as well visually as the originals, if not better in some aspects. And with only models and wire(thread, string, lines). But, I also think just because something can be replicated, it does not mean it's fake. While, I do consider myself a fan of the Meier case, I do lean more towards it being models. I am a fan, not because I am a "true believer", but because I derive much entertainment from the case, and I like the idea it presents, even if it's not "true".

There is no question whatsover that they are models. Time and time again we see this in the footage and the photos. In one of the wedding cake photos, you can even see a part of the model that fell off. The simple fact of the matter is, there are people out there who actually believe these photo's and video's are real, no matter how much evidence there is out there that proves its all a hoax.

A good example is the OP. He likes to think he knows everything about the case, but it's clear that he knows very little but still preaches how great the case is, even though evidence says the complete Opposite.

Before he even views the evidence that the case is a hoax, his mind is made up, so he can't give an hinest answer because of his beliefs. He has ignored all the evidence i have posted, and just keeps moaning that it is not my evidence

Maybe I am weird, to still like and enjoy the case and it's "evidence" even though I do lean to it being a total hoax. I have read a few books and seen many pro and con films. I think it's facinating, and I think the appeal for many, is we want it to be true. I don't think it is, but I like to ride the ride, like with pro wrestling.

I believe the word you used was aboslute rubbish was it not?(about Stan Fullhams book)which you have never read......

Why is it that other people from around the world are still posting pictures of the same beamships?
There was one posted just yesterday from columbia i believe......looks exactly like a meier special.......i suppose its all copy cat hoaxes ?
4.bp.blogspot.com...
Next dont accuse me of religion becuse i mention spirituality which has not too much in common with religion.
Not everything we are aware of can be quantised so easily.
I am laughing my ass off at your pompous antics really.....debunk this columbian picture...its Semjasses runabout.
You are so busted.
You cannot cling to such a stilted mindset and discover much about UFOs or ET. or yourself for that matter.
Perhaps you could save up your allowance and purchase the challenges of change whereupon you can pontificate on its being absolute rubbish, (after you actually know whats in it.)
Meanwhile let me inform you that project second story (A canadian goverment study of ufos )actually did use channelled information to communicate with et.They established a link that way.
And it worked too.prbably because they did it scientifically.
This story is part of the Wilbert Smith dialogues, and the results of the communication would astound you if it wasnt just more rubbish to your locked down mind.
Its not about your ego...its about contact....
And yes its been established that some ETs are telepathic.
And also that humans can be too....but thats another story .........
A man who cannot separate his spirituality from religion is a poor man indeed.
quote
movements would be hard to achieve.) So, yes, in regards to that shot, we mentioned that we could definitely do it today with CG, but at the time these were supposedly shot - it would have been very hard, probably even impossible, to fake this kind of shot.

I'm an ET believer, but one thing that seems odd to me, is all the various UFOs all seem to look different. If they were all the same model of craft, I think that would lead to more credence. Since you brought it up, and maybe to give some supporting evidence to the Meier evidence, maybe you(and others if they know) can post here other photos and vids that are of the same type of craft that Meier claims to have photographed and filmed, and if there are many sightings recorded, of similar ships, this may give some weight to the Meier claim.

IMO more big egos and self proclaimed "wise" people convincing us it's a hoax. The photos, movies etc. are still fulfilling their goals after 36 years: creating a) controversy and b) leading people to the Geisteslehre. The real core is the GL (check it out) it is about living according the laws of nature, meditation, love and and the truth and (how can that be wrong).

reply to post by stirling


You know what, all you do is dodge questions. The information i have posted you have not even touched, and you talk about me doing my own investigation lol Amd as for that photo on that blog, how do you know its not a fake? Also, i would like to add that these types of ufo's were talked about years before the meier case, so i suggest you do your homework. What is the point of debating with you when you ignore all that i post on why this case is a hoax. I post why the paladein girl photo is a hoax, you ignore it. I post how meier used model tree's and the evidence for it, and you ignore it. You posted a reply to me saying why Mr horn is a liar, and i reply with evidence why he is a liar, and you ignore it. You are doing excactly what i thought you would do!

Ok, lets do this one bit of evidence at a time, can you do this? Lets start with the paladien girl photo. Will you admit that this photo has been proved to be not a paladien girl, but a dancer for a tv show. Lets talk about this, then move on to the next part of the case.