Atheism

Originally posted by ac3rr
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

 

You observe god? The Christian god? Please explain how you observe the Christian god.

see this is something I am dealing with right now... I am trying to determine where my personal philosophies come from, yes this is personal me telling this on ATS for all to see.

maybe what I am seeking is a definition

one thing I know I do not like is initial posturing of hate... if that says anything ? I am sensitive to demeanor.

aren't we all?

Originally posted by SaturnFX
.
Most atheists overvalue life as a rule because they don't see simple things worth dying for...they progress science in the hopes of extending life as long as possible, with the hopes of one day finding a way to bypass death all together.

What? I think that is one of the oddest things I've ever heard.

An Atheist IMO - - contributes to life as a legacy for future generations.

You give everything you can because it is your time and your gift. Life is too precious to waste.

Life is too precious to waste time following rules and doctrines - - - for a reward at the end.

Life is the Reward.

reply to post by bogomil

Quote: ["Kill atheism, kill dogma, kill religion. Give me the direct experience of absolute truth. Give me Enlightenment devoid of any of the above."] In a careful, academic way I agree with you. But not as any active act as suppressing anything. For the time being it would just lead to further polarization, which the aim hopefully is to avoid.

Of course lets not suppress anything ...lets examine it all, but also lets question it all as well. Examination requires questioning and at least in that much im sure you will agree.

And while I am a metaphysicist myself, believing in 'anomalies' of undefined character, I far prefer the company and support of atheism respecting secular, egalitarian society, to that of theistic elistists, who only want to recreate their fascist theocracies. Besides atheists can usually function rationally, while theists ever fabulate.

('anomalies' of undefined character) ...very well put as this in itself is the actual realm that requires investigation were we to get to bottom line of things.

I understand, having for years examined and wrestled with, the company of atheism, while also respecting the "other" sides. There is definitely lots of examination, questioning, debating, and wrestling with everything ...which unfortunately is not something we find in Christianity, Islam, and a few of the other top cheeses.

I also understand the mechanics and nature of these elitists and fabulation itself. However it goes back to the root being your own self proposed ('anomalies' of undefined character) and this is exactly the realm that those folks, who say they have directly experienced God (which is accessible to all), are also saying and showing how to get to the direct experience of God devoid of elitism or fabulation itself.

The whole elitism and fabulation can easily be an intellectual justification to no longer examine the deeper things that revolve around these subjects.

Quote: [In the case of God ....there is just way too many individuals who say they have experienced this reality and show how to get there."] And not two of them (just an expression not to be taken literally) agree upon what they experience. I hope there will be a chance sometime to follow such thoughts much further than this, but just for now: Direct experience is a chinese box.

1. We can find many in agreement on the specifics of the experience.
2. We can also find disagreements just like we find with anything which is merely a byproduct of subjectivisms coloration. Just like we can show 10 people a tree who all agree it exists based on their direct experience of it. Then later on their own subjective mind has different things to say about that tree based on culture, creed, personality, etc.

And yet the tree remains, inherently without labels, it itself being beyond words, its own existence stemming from its forefathers who existed before there were even humans to create words to label things.

3. Direct experience to yourself may be your own proverbial chinese box ...and yet everyone experiences life directly. Something so obvious that everyone has as a universal faculty (the direct experience of life, self, people, places, things) yet 'this' itself is not understood by science, psychology, nor any other group claims to know ....we are now in the realm of consciousness itself) something everybody has.

.........and yet certain individuals have written manuals on examining consciousness and this examination process leads to the direct experience of God.

A chinese box maybe, yet everyone has one.

reply to post by ac3rr
I do not belong to any organized religion, I do believe more senseless deaths have been caused by religious intolerance than for any other reason. I think people who feel the need to prove their religion has a scientific basis are sadly mistaken in their endeavor. However, to look down your nose at a person of faith because you think science has all the answers and religious people are idiots, is an arrogant and stupid thing to do. The religions of this world tell a story of humanity as a whole, religion maps out the historic emotional struggle of defining right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that in most courts of law what is legal is not always what is fair and just is proof enough that humanity is still engaged in that struggle. Yes, religion is often bent and twisted to the whims of certain people, but so is science. A nuclear weapon is one of the most destructive, perverted vulgarities ever created by science. But that's not all ...chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc, etc. are other gifts to humankind from science. So it begs the question; who is more ignorant and dangerous? A religious zealot, or the scientists who create the weapons a zealot may use to further their twisted cause?

reply to post by ac3rr
I do not belong to any organized religion, I do believe more senseless deaths have been caused by religious intolerance than for any other reason. I think people who feel the need to prove their religion has a scientific basis are sadly mistaken in their endeavor. However, to look down your nose at a person of faith because you think science has all the answers and religious people are idiots, is an arrogant and stupid thing to do. The religions of this world tell a story of humanity as a whole, religion maps out the historic emotional struggle of defining right and wrong, good and evil. The fact that in most courts of law what is legal is not always what is fair and just is proof enough that humanity is still engaged in that struggle. Yes, religion is often bent and twisted to the whims of certain people, but so is science. A nuclear weapon is one of the most destructive, perverted vulgarities ever created by science. But that's not all ...chemical weapons, biological weapons, etc, etc. are other gifts to humankind from science. So it begs the question; who is more ignorant and dangerous? A religious zealot, or the scientists who create the weapons a zealot may use to further their twisted cause?

It does seem that more and more people are becoming aware of where these stories of religions came from. It is stone age structure of power and wealth that use fear of death and punishment for eternity to achieve their goals. If the pope believes in his god so much then when the hell does he drive around in a car with 3 inch thick bullet proof glass. Nothing says faith in god like a 3 inch glass to protect yourself while driving in public. Then you have the head of the National Association of Evangelicals Ted Haggard who would speak out so harshly with this god head view against homosexuality. It is just all about the money and people still fall for the scam.

Life after death is 50/50 there is or there isn't. If there truly is life after death it is not what modern or ancient religions depicts.

I am lost as to how Atheism is considered a religion there is no praise to any deities . Most look at scientific facts and reasoning I thought. And I don't think people are worshiping science journals. Just sounds like another way to make money off people who like to be told what to do and need to conform to structures for answers.

None the less these stone age ideologies need to belong in the stone age. Killing in the name of religion and the oppression of people around the world is unacceptable. Maybe after religion is gone can humans enjoy peace on earth.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by ac3rr

 

for the cosmic creator...nope, it has to be a love god with candy and gifts for everyone when they die.

Hitler,

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a9f34fe74f40.jpg[/atsimg]
Hitler was a STRONG Christian!
btw, that nazi belt buckle reads "God With Us".
Sorry mate, Hitler is one of yours.

Man, am I sick to death of that lie! Hitler was not a Christian, he was a pagan, and I suspect you know that... But it makes such a good story to call him a Christian!
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32


Most people who are willing to know the truth are aware that Hitler considered himself a Christian, a Roman Catholic to be precise, and know that the accusation of him being an atheist are as patently false as they are absurd. What many do not know is that Hitler was also a Creationist.

Re Dominicus

I would like to swap knowledge, understanding and experince with you at a suitable occasion.

I'm not exactly a newbee on the subject(s) exchanged between us, and I'm sure that you speak from a realistic base also.

Re ac3rr

you wrote:

["Most people who are willing to know the truth are aware that Hitler considered himself a Christian, a Roman Catholic to be precise, and know that the accusation of him being an atheist are as patently false as they are absurd."]

With 34000 nominal christian options to choose between it really doesn't say very much. And as I have said on another thread, Hitler's 'christianity' (there can't be much doubt about it being at least a nominal adherence) could have been a convenient public facade. There are so many myths about the guy, e.g. was he also rumored to be a vegetarian.

Quote: ["What many do not know is that Hitler was also a Creationist."]

You never get to old to learn. Sounds interesting. But creationist how? As far as I remember, he ascribed to germanic cosmogony, with ice meeting fire as the primordial creation.

Originally posted by ac3rr
reply to post by Vicky32

 

Most people who are willing to know the truth are aware that Hitler considered himself a Christian, a Roman Catholic to be precise, and know that the accusation of him being an atheist are as patently false as they are absurd. What many do not know is that Hitler was also a Creationist.

I never said Hitler was an atheist, but that he was a pagan - he certainly was not a Christian, in any way!
Neither was he a creationist.
You, would get a lot further attacking vegetarians (Hitler was provably a vegetarian) and he loved his dogs. That's dogs, not gods!
Unlike you (and I am 90% certain I am right about this) I have studied history, specifically German history and culture - and also, I had parents who lived and in my father's case, fought throughout WW2.
I am finding some links, and I want you to please actually read them, don't just woggle off and make with the insults!
A NZ blog
Second link
No 3 Wikipedia for what it's worth
Vicky

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 378. )

“May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933; from Adolf Hitler, My New Order. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 147. )

“The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939; from Adolf Hitler, My New Order. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 621. )

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


I don't understand how everything observed even proves any god. If things didn't have a scientific explanation that made sense you'd have a leg to stand on. But jumping to the conclusion of a giant living being of some sort making everything is just such a gargantuan copout of thought and examination. No different than the explanation you'd hear from a caveman explaining who the sun is.

Originally posted by ac3rr
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939. Vol. 1. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 378. )

“May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933; from Adolf Hitler, My New Order. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 147. )

“The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939; from Adolf Hitler, My New Order. New York: Reynal & Hitchcock, 1941, p. 621. )

Did you even bother to follow the links I gave? If you had, then you would see that all the quotes you give have matching quotes where he lets rip against Christianity and Catholicism....
I am very disappointed that you could not be bothered looking at the links I went to so much trouble to find! My Dad used to say "there's none so deaf as them who won't hear" and the same thing applies to those who won't (not can't) see.
Vicky

Hitler was Roman Catholic by the rules of the Church. Ask the Pope for his judgement on the issue. Roman Catholicism, before the Holocaust, was anti-Semitic, therefore Hitler's targeting of Jews came from his Roman Catholic heritage.

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact
I believe that Atheism is a religion, I believe that they believe they are going nowhere.

I'll give you back my default response.

Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

It signifies no more than a simple disregard for deities, any deity.

Or if you prefer : There is no creator. I don't have faith in that fact. I don't believe in that fact. It is simply a fact, without any viable, tangible evidence to the contrary.
(Books written and edited by third parties are not evidence...regardless of the flavor of religion)

Originally posted by ac3rr
reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

 

I don't understand how everything observed even proves any god. If things didn't have a scientific explanation that made sense you'd have a leg to stand on. But jumping to the conclusion of a giant living being of some sort making everything is just such a gargantuan copout of thought and examination. No different than the explanation you'd hear from a caveman explaining who the sun is.

who is jumping to conclusions about a giant gargantuan flying spaghetti besides the doubters ?

I have clearly defined the largest part of my deity, and I consider this deity to be the Christian's God, my definition is God is "Love"

refute it if you wish, no one has yet since I have stated it.

there are only those looking for mythical creatures or a being with white hair and fiery eyes as a deity because that is all they can relate to right now...

Originally posted by Noncompatible
Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I have to admit this comparison is kind of weak, have you seen the dictionaries definition of what you believe ?

yes what you "believe" is actually a word called (belief) look it up in an establish non-third party dictionary, and that does not include user entered Wikipedia.

for in fact one is only a doubter... which acknowledges a deity exist or one would not be on about it.

or one is a resentful and spiteful non-comprehender...

Atheism is clearly not a religion, as it is an absence in belief in Supreme Beings, supernatural events and a soul that survives death, or any combination of the above.

To try and claim that atheism is a religion requires a radical ad hoc redefinition in what it is that "being a religion" is supposed to mean, resulting in a radically equivocal use of the new term-- if atheism is a religion, then just what isn't a religion?

Originally posted by ac3rr
Atheism is clearly not a religion,

where do you live on planet Earth is the only question...

I live in the United States, where ats is hosted... my government proclaims Atheism as a religion and the protections thereof, as long as atheism plays abiding by my countries law.

where are you from and what are the laws is the only real question determining Atheism as a religion...