Artists' settlement boycott expanded

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Israel has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Its economy is thriving.
It's GDP per person is one of the highest in the world.

So you honestly have to ask why the US Tax Payer is still forced to give them handouts and you can bet the average Joe on the street feels the same way..
The WH is owned and controled by Israel...

The same reason we supply aid to Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Mexico, Brazil, Jordan, Turkey, Taiwan, etc etc etc. Its not just Israel.

@ Oooozy

Not a personal attack but an observation that is consistent in your posts as well as your own statements on various topics. Blaming others for your own actions is not surprising.

edit on 14-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

lol, yeah right..that doesn't even need a response really..But I bet lots will get a good laugh from it...

reply to post by oozyism


Palestinians have had numerous offers to get their own state. They have rejected this idea time and again because of Hamaz Hezbullah and other arab states who had no intrest in the plight of the palestinian people, but instead used that plight to further their own political goals.

The best opprotunity was the 6 day war, where Israel was ok with having Jerusalem as an international city with UN peacekeeprs, with Palestinians being bale to use it as their capital as well. What happened? The arab nations who attacked Isreal and lost said no to peace, no to israels existance etc etc..

See the pattern here, or do I need to draw it out more for you? The Palestinian people have been screwed over by their own the entire time. Even now Hamas kills palestinians by their own actions. Hezbullah threatens their own people when it comes to accountiability in the assasination of the Lebanese Prime Minister. Instead of doing what they demand of Israel, they ignore the UN report and threaten to kill anyone who sides with the report as being traitors and collaborators with the US and Israel.

Now they are screaming for civil war in Lebanon to forcibly take control of the country / government.

I will say it again, the article you posted is news worthy and makes some points. However, just like the morons in the middle east, you take it and turn it into something so unrelated to prove a failed policital point, undermining the article istelf, and instead shifting focus to some delusional problem you think exists because you are incapable of seeing any other viewpoint other than the one you are told to beleive or be killed for not doing it.

reply to post by Xcathdra

That is like Kurds migrating to California, then creating a police force, army and secret service with the help of China, then claiming the whole California is part of Kurdistan, when Californians resist, they are kicked out, then Kurdistan is created in one half of California, then all other states around California disagrees and want to kick Kurds so fight for their Californian brothers, they all loose because China's support, then Californians are asked to create a state in half of California, they say no duuuuh, and Gravitational wants them to accept the existence of Israel inside California, and asking why Californians didn't want a state, duuuh they don't want a state in half of California, duuuuh the whole California. Then decades later, after decades of Californian humiliation, Californians accept half of California as a new state but also fails because of Kurdish keeps expanding their settlements towards the new Californian state is supposed to be.. Californians want the settlement expansions to stop, and the occupation of the whole California. The whole world says it, except China and Chinese proxy states such as N-Korea. blablablabla..

Don't talk about the past, talk about now.

If you want to talk about the past, don't concentrate on that one incident, talk about the whole thing.

That way you can see it in context, rather than isolated.

reply to post by backinblack


Because there is no response you can give that counters what I posted.We support countries all over the world, including Israel who does have a high standard of living, as well as Kuwait, which pretty much gives their gas away for free to Kuwaiti nationals.

Has it never occured to you to ask why Israel has such a high standard of living? If some of these arab countries would spend less time denouncing the great satan and maybe a bit more time in building a damn medical ceneter, things might, just might be different. If these countries didnt spend so much time on brainwashing their citizens, instead of allowing them to have independant thought, they might be a bit more technilogically advanced than they are now.

Had it not been for Islam, the world would be behind the curve when it comes to advanced mathmatics. To those countries who are ok with more than one opinion and train of thought, the use of math worked out well, using it as a base to leap from for other technologies.

The culture in the Middle East are those of businessmen, some of the best in the world with roots going back to antiquity. The world embraced some of these principles, and have propsered because of it, again by accepting more than one idea and thought process. The same cannot be said for the countries in the middle east except for Israel and Turkey.

The Islamic Faith says they are misunderstood by the rest of the World. I would agree with this, but at the same time arguing other religions are misunderstood by Islam. In most western countries you can find a mosque, synagogue and a church all in the same areas, sometimes right next to each other, with both groups supporting the other (as an example check out Detroit Michigan, where a Jewish community group every year would give back to the community. The day its normally scheduled actually fell on a high jewish holiday, at which point the Muslims in the community told their jewish neighbors to do their Holiday and they would run the community event).

Peace is possible to those who have independant thought. Peace is possible to those accept that more than one view point is possible.

By the way, you seemed to ignore the fact the US provides aid to Palestinians as well. Your right though, its just a joke people willl laugh at and not take seriously.

reply to post by oozyism


For someone who constantly says dont talk about the past, you sure do have an issue bringing up Palestinian - Israeli rights to the areas in the Middle East. I will bring up whatever information I can to support the position I take. Limitiing that ability does nothing but prove my point about extremist Arabs unable to express independtant thought.

But hey, lets talk about the present then. Israel is working with Palestinians to find a lasting peace. Hamas is not ok with this, and coninues to launch terror attacks on innocent Israeli civilians, while at the same time holding palestinians hostage so when Israel does respond, Hamas can run up the civilian body count.

Lets look at Lebanon, where Hezbullah wants to get away with assasinating the Prime Minister. They want to ignore the UN report, labeling it propooganda of the US and Israel, and threatens to kill anyone who agrees with it.

Yup, these groups sure are serious about peace. Ignoring the past dooms all of us to repeating it. I place things in context, but trying to get you to come outside of your shell is impossible. You have this ability to ignore any poiints made against your argument by doing what you just did, stating we should only look at specific incidents, and in general they all support your argument based on the narrow limitied view point you push.

An example is your criticism of the USA without ever having come to this country. You think you know what would happen to you if you came here, and the statements you have made in that area are the same line of propoganda other arabs get from their own governments based off of propoganda because they hate the US.

You accuse others of being close minded and not knowing all of the info. For someone who levels accusations about the US without ever having come here, you again defeat your own argument.

You made an awesome post that supported a view point of yours, and in a manner that made me agree with it. Instead of building off of that, you derail your own thread to push your agenda, undermining your own arguments, and dismissing the substance and impact of the article by attacking it.

Here is an example of what can happen in this country. I urge you to watch it and maybe learn a little about the US.

reply to post by Xcathdra

But hey, lets talk about the present then. Israel is working with Palestinians to find a lasting peace. Hamas is not ok with this, and coninues to launch terror attacks on innocent Israeli civilians, while at the same time holding palestinians hostage so when Israel does respond, Hamas can run up the civilian body count.

I thought Palestine chose Hamas not Fatah (Democratically)??

Palestinians have every right to defend themselves, and if innocent people die in the process, call it collateral damage, like the Zionists do.

Anyways, doesn't it all come back down to the settlement expansions which don't agree with? I agree that Hamas is fighting, but what other options do they have? What do you want them to do? It is obvious that the other agreements signed previously in White house failed due to continued occupation and settlement expansions, and back then there was no Hamas.

Lets look at Lebanon, where Hezbullah wants to get away with assasinating the Prime Minister. They want to ignore the UN report, labeling it propooganda of the US and Israel, and threatens to kill anyone who agrees with it.

Now you are exaggerating, they threatening to kill people anyways, if you are gonna refuse to take in to consideration the flotilla report, then don't bring me this one, because it has nothing to do with the settlement expansions.

Yup, these groups sure are serious about peace. Ignoring the past dooms all of us to repeating it. I place things in context, but trying to get you to come outside of your shell is impossible. You have this ability to ignore any poiints made against your argument by doing what you just did, stating we should only look at specific incidents, and in general they all support your argument based on the narrow limitied view point you push.

No, they are not about peace, they are about resistance, they were created to resist against Zionist aggression. I thought you knew that already. If Zionist aggressions end, then these groups will fade away.

An example is your criticism of the USA without ever having come to this country. You think you know what would happen to you if you came here, and the statements you have made in that area are the same line of propoganda other arabs get from their own governments based off of propoganda because they hate the US.

Having opinions such as mine can get in big trouble, look at that dude Al-Awlaki, I feel sorry for him. Anyways, what does this have to do with the topic.

You accuse others of being close minded and not knowing all of the info. For someone who levels accusations about the US without ever having come here, you again defeat your own argument.

You don't have to go somewhere to know it, you never been to Nazi Germany, how do you know about it?

You made an awesome post that supported a view point of yours, and in a manner that made me agree with it. Instead of building off of that, you derail your own thread to push your agenda, undermining your own arguments, and dismissing the substance and impact of the article by attacking it.

Nope, that is just me, don't take it seriously.

Originally posted by oozyism
I thought Palestine chose Hamas not Fatah (Democratically)??

They did, as well as the Palestinian Authority who had the Prime Minister position in an agreement with Hamas. Hamas held elected seats in the parliment, along with the PA. When they, the PA, made overatures towards Israel, Hamas got bent out of shape and pulled a coup, executing their PA counterpartsd when they violently sezied control of Gaza, which by the way screwed Palestinians in Gaza who voted for thei PA representatives. So I guess its ok to screw over those palestinians who voted for and elected PA, because Hamas is looking out for all of them right?

Executing your PA counterparts, which screws over the people who voted them in, to seize control doesnt quite sound democratic to me. So yeah, killed government officals who were also legitmately elected, oppressed their own people by illegitimizing their voice in government, and became judge jury and executioner of those who objected to Hamas's move.

So yeah.. I guess as long as they were democratically elected....... /end sarcasm

Originally posted by oozyism
Palestinians have every right to defend themselves, and if innocent people die in the process, call it collateral damage, like the Zionists do.

Collateral damage is never acceptable. Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorist attacks coming from Gaza. The reason Palestinians are killed in the Israeli response is because the cowardly hamas traitors use schools, mosques, markets etc to launch those attacks, knowing any response will kill innocent Palestinians. There own Government, Hamas, is purposely running up a civilian body count of their own people to make Israel look bad.

Killing their own people.. Think about that will you.

Originally posted by oozyism
Anyways, doesn't it all come back down to the settlement expansions which don't agree with? I agree that Hamas is fighting, but what other options do they have? What do you want them to do? It is obvious that the other agreements signed previously in White house failed due to continued occupation and settlement expansions, and back then there was no Hamas.

Hamas is in control of Gaza, not the West bank. I dont see exapnsion occuring in Gaza do you? The Expansion is a severe issue, that causes issues. Food for thought - It can be viewed as a buffer zone that Israel is trying to create because apparently no matter what they do, terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbullah will continue to target Israel since their goal is the extermination of the Jewish people. But hey, dont take my word for it, Look at their Charter. If I were in that position I would creeate a buffer zone as well. You want Israel to stop their expansions, then Palestinians need to take their government and hold them accountible and force them to stop attacking Israel.

Violence begets violence - Both sides are in the wrong. Hamas has the option of rocognizing that Israel has a right to exist, and exist in Peace. Quit attacking their civilians, and be serious about a state, and see what would happen.

Originally posted by oozyism
Now you are exaggerating, they threatening to kill people

anyways, if you are gonna refuse to take in to consideration the flotilla report, then don't bring me this one, because it has nothing to do with the settlement expansions.

I have argued with you about the UN report on the Floatilla, and your response was the report should be taken as it is. The reason for your view is because it held Israel accountible for its actions. Now that their is a UN report holding Hezbollah accountible for theres, you once again try to sweep the UN report under the rug by bringing up a past event.

I would also point out that once again, you tell people to not bring up events from the past because it screws your arguments, but in this case you want to bring up the past in order to talk about the current UN report. Again it backs my accusation that you argue based on what helps your position at the time, while trying ti ignore points that counters your position.

Hamas is guilty of their actions, just as Israel is guilty of theirs.

Report: UN to indict top Hezbollah commander over Hariri murder
Nasrallah threatens Lebanese, Western rivals

It has everything to do with expansions, being the reason for the occupation of Southern lebanon was to create a.. wait for it... buffer to prevent rocket attacks from Hezbollah. The Hezbollah MP stated any person who sides with the UN report holding hamas accountible for the assasination of the PM would be labeled traitors and collaborators of Israel and the US. In addition they recently stated any attempt to arrest any hezbollah leader would result in a civil war within Lebanon.

UN SC 8579

So what does Hezbollah do? They say that Israel was behind the assasination and provided false evidence to implicate Hezbollah. What does Syria do?

BBC Report
They issue 33 arrest warrants for people who supposedly lied to the UN Investigators. I am sure once arrested they will be executed.

Originally posted by oozyism
No, they are not about peace, they are about resistance, they were created to resist against Zionist aggression. I thought you knew that already. If Zionist aggressions end, then these groups will fade away.

If Hamas and Hezbollah would stop their agression towards killing innocent civilians, then the Israeli retaliations would end, and these groups would fade away.

However, you are changing your previous stated positions, since the agression would never end by hamas or Hezbollah because they both have charters calling for the complete destruction of Israel. So no, if justified Israeli counter attacks towards terrorist bent on killing civilians on both sides in the name of religion stopped, the attacks on Israel would never stop.

nice try though.

Originally posted by oozyism
Having opinions such as mine can get in big trouble, look at that dude Al-Awlaki, I feel sorry for him. Anyways, what does this have to do with the topic.

Well, being Al-Awlaki advocates killing any Americans because he is a terrorist, then yes if you share the same views as he does and take part in the same activities he does, you would most likely be in trouble. So based on your statement then are you a terrorist that advocates killing innocent people in the name of religion? You opened the door, so I would like you to answer.

Here in the States we don't take kindly to people who want to kill our people, and we will defend ourselves from the cowards who target women and children in a manner that uses uneducated simpletons to blow themselves in the name of God. I always found it humerous that these Top Turbins have no problem sending their brainwashed minions to blow themselves up, yet the Top Turbins never lead by example.

Why is that?

And again, way to obfuscate. The statement was me pointing out that you criticise the US, condemn us, make statements about our Country, when you have never even been here. You make statements that if you were to come here, you would be kjilled or some other bogus BS argument that uneducated people make when they can't answer the question truthfully.

You have never been to the US, yet you speak as if you are an expert on it. You have mislead others in other threads about the country you are from and the reason you left. You left Afghanistan because of the Taliban threat, not because of US military action.

Like others who drink the cool aid, haveing a differeing opinion that the Taliban can get you killed. Instead of openly stating thats the reason you left, and I imagine you probably still have family there so if anything is linked to you, it could place your family in jeopardy there, you tow the party line and blame the Americans.

Like the UN and other countries, you take the path of least resitance. Instead of the UN telling the Taliban they are despotes and abuse human rights, they concentrate on countries like the US, who have a rule of law, and where you can call the Government out and criticise them and not be rousted out of bed and killed in the middle of the night.

Any attempt you make to counter this staement will be seen as nothing but an uneducated response about how our Government and Legal system work based on what you are told. Having never been here to the US, you can't possibly understand how our system works.

Originally posted by oozyism
You don't have to go somewhere to know it, you never been to Nazi Germany, how do you know about it?

And by not going, you don't understand it. I find it intresting that you make accusations about people not understanding history, or a culture, when you are jsut as guilty of it. You are exactly what you accuse the US and Israeli Government of being. Your hatred is so blinding that you don't even see your actions as being the exact same as those you accuse.

How do we know about Germany... Well, unlike your statements that we should not look at the past, those of us who are itnrested in all sides of the story will look at History. If you actually studied history you might know this, as well as speaking intelligently on several topics in these forums. While we are on the comparion of Nazi Germany though I would suggest you do some more homework before making an attempt to draw paralells between Nazis and the US. The paralells between Nazis and the Taliban, Al Queda and the extremists who hijacked Islam are spitting images.. The only difference is their German sucks.Every single country on this planet will have paralells with the Actions of Nazi Germany.

The main difference I point out, is in the US you can make that statement and nothing would happen to you. Tri it in Afghanistan, or the Gaza strip, and the paralells would stop, and the actual events would start to repeat themselves in terms of summary execution.

Originally posted by oozyism
Nope, that is just me, don't take it seriously.

I generally don't take anything you say as being serious, because most of it is so far off base, or just plain wrong, its not even funny, but sad. As I stated before you post some very good stories, and make very good points. Howver you go off the tracks in your zeal to use whatever there is to hate Israel or the United States.

Just like the arguments of Hamas and Hezbollah, who could make very comelling arguments to the World, and gain support throughout the world on the actions Israel takes. Since Hamas and Hezbollah go out of their way to do whatever they can to show their blind hatred towards Israel, they loose credibility, and by extension the valid points they make, because they get drowned out by the extranious crap.

Make your post, and base your positions off that post to make your point. Going beyond like you do does nothing but undermine your position, causes people to not take you seriously, and in the end, the article you posted, is lost, along with whatever points you made and any support you may have created.

Any time you want to experince the United States, let me know. You are more then weclome to come stay in my house and experince what the US is, and what it is all about. Up to an including taking you to the Mosque in our city and showing how people can live in peace while expressing differing view points.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

They did, as well as the Palestinian Authority who had the Prime Minister position in an agreement with Hamas. Hamas held elected seats in the parliment, along with the PA. When they, the PA, made overatures towards Israel, Hamas got bent out of shape and pulled a coup, executing their PA counterpartsd when they violently sezied control of Gaza, which by the way screwed Palestinians in Gaza who voted for thei PA representatives. So I guess its ok to screw over those palestinians who voted for and elected PA, because Hamas is looking out for all of them right?

So you are suggesting Hamas pulled a coup when even after they were voted in Democratically? What is the point of a coup when you are already in the office.

I find it odd you hold such a belief, that it was a coup lol.. I thought it was general knowledge that all aid to Palestine was blocked by the West and Israel which Palestinians depend on for their livelyhood. This aid forced Fatah in to submission to do as the West pleases which caused the conflict in the first place.

The period from March to December 2006 was marked by tensions when Fatah commanders refused to take orders from the government while the Palestinian Authority initiated a campaign of assassinations and abductions against Hamas.[13] which led to Hamas beginning its own.[

en.wikipedia.org...

Executing your PA counterparts, which screws over the people who voted them in, to seize control doesnt quite sound democratic to me. So yeah, killed government officals who were also legitmately elected, oppressed their own people by illegitimizing their voice in government, and became judge jury and executioner of those who objected to Hamas's move.

Read the above source.

Collateral damage is never acceptable. Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorist attacks coming from Gaza. The reason Palestinians are killed in the Israeli response is because the cowardly hamas traitors use schools, mosques, markets etc to launch those attacks, knowing any response will kill innocent Palestinians. There own Government, Hamas, is purposely running up a civilian body count of their own people to make Israel look bad.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestinians don't? The right to defend is universal, it doesn't just apply to the Zionist regime. The right to resist occupation is also a universal right, Palestinians have every right to resist Zionist occupation. Some beleive with any means necessary, some don't. Some believe kill those who forcefully steal land is OK, some say it is not. Those opinions exist in every society. In the US you step in someone else's house without permission, he would get shot, innocent or not.

Talk about terror:

Killing their own people.. Think about that will you.

Yeah, sure, I will take that in as a point ..

Hamas is in control of Gaza, not the West bank. I dont see exapnsion occuring in Gaza do you? The Expansion is a severe issue, that causes issues. Food for thought - It can be viewed as a buffer zone that Israel is trying to create because apparently no matter what they do, terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbullah will continue to target Israel since their goal is the extermination of the Jewish people. But hey, dont take my word for it, Look at their Charter. If I were in that position I would creeate a buffer zone as well. You want Israel to stop their expansions, then Palestinians need to take their government and hold them accountible and force them to stop attacking Israel.

That is such a failed argument, Hamas is not in the Fatah controlled area, I will ask again, why isn't there any settlement expansion towards Gaza, but there is towards the Fatah controlled area? Think, think, think? Who is not fighting, and who is fighting?

The charter has nothing to do with the expansion of settlements lol:
1. Israel already exists.
2. Israel have enough nukes to survive for a long time.

Violence begets violence - Both sides are in the wrong. Hamas has the option of rocognizing that Israel has a right to exist, and exist in Peace. Quit attacking their civilians, and be serious about a state, and see what would happen.

Why should Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist when there is such a huge balance issue:
1. Israel already exists, Palestine doesn't.
2. Israel needs to free Palestine, and allow Palestinians to govern their own affairs as an independant nation.
3. Israel needs to remove its settlers.

Once all of the above happens, then expect Palestinians to see the Zionists in a different light, and I can guarantee their charter will change.

I have argued with you about the UN report on the Floatilla, and your response was the report should be taken as it is. The reason for your view is because it held Israel accountible for its actions. Now that their is a UN report holding Hezbollah accountible for theres, you once again try to sweep the UN report under the rug by bringing up a past event.

Do you know what accountable means? And what does Hariri's murder have to do with settlement expansions? Make a thread about it, and we will discuss it in depth.

I would also point out that once again, you tell people to not bring up events from the past because it screws your arguments, but in this case you want to bring up the past in order to talk about the current UN report. Again it backs my accusation that you argue based on what helps your position at the time, while trying ti ignore points that counters your position.

Nope, I will repeat myself, what does Hariri's murder have to do with settlement expansions, isn't that what we are discussing here. I have always said that if you bring the past, bring the whole past, in context.

Hamas is guilty of their actions, just as Israel is guilty of theirs.

Hamas is a resistance group/.

It has everything to do with expansions, being the reason for the occupation of Southern lebanon was to create a.. wait for it... buffer to prevent rocket attacks from Hezbollah. The Hezbollah MP stated any person who sides with the UN report holding hamas accountible for the assasination of the PM would be labeled traitors and collaborators of Israel and the US. In addition they recently stated any attempt to arrest any hezbollah leader would result in a civil war within Lebanon.

Hezbullah is a resistance group against Israel, we all know that by now, The right to resist occupation is a universal right.

Why do you wanna discuss the Hariri assasinations? Make a thread, then we will discuss it in detail, I promise.

So what does Hezbollah do? They say that Israel was behind the assasination and provided false evidence to implicate Hezbollah. What does Syria do?

I will repeat, make a thread about it..

They issue 33 arrest warrants for people who supposedly lied to the UN Investigators. I am sure once arrested they will be executed.

Sure...

If Hamas and Hezbollah would stop their agression towards killing innocent civilians, then the Israeli retaliations would end, and these groups would fade away.

You mean you want them to stop their resistance, so the Zionists can increase their settlement expansions? OOOOKKKK, sure, I will ask them to do that.

However, you are changing your previous stated positions, since the agression would never end by hamas or Hezbollah because they both have charters calling for the complete destruction of Israel. So no, if justified Israeli counter attacks towards terrorist bent on killing civilians on both sides in the name of religion stopped, the attacks on Israel would never stop.

The charters were created due to Israeli aggression, duuuuh.

Well, being Al-Awlaki advocates killing any Americans because he is a terrorist, then yes if you share the same views as he does and take part in the same activities he does, you would most likely be in trouble. So based on your statement then are you a terrorist that advocates killing innocent people in the name of religion? You opened the door, so I would like you to answer.

That is his personal opinion, if you disagree, maybe you should argue with him, instead of trying to kill him. I have a thread about it, discuss it here:
Why do they want Anwar Al-Awlaki killed and his speeches banned??,

Here in the States we don't take kindly to people who want to kill our people, and we will defend ourselves from the cowards who target women and children in a manner that uses uneducated simpletons to blow themselves in the name of God. I always found it humerous that these Top Turbins have no problem sending their brainwashed minions to blow themselves up, yet the Top Turbins never lead by example.

The above comes from a person who agrees with nuking of Japan killing hundred of thousands of innocent women and children. Talk about coward. Once again, make a thread about that too, and we will discuss it in depth.

And again, way to obfuscate. The statement was me pointing out that you criticise the US, condemn us, make statements about our Country, when you have never even been here. You make statements that if you were to come here, you would be kjilled or some other bogus BS argument that uneducated people make when they can't answer the question truthfully.

America has abducted dozens of innocent people and send them to torture camps, not much different than the Nazis really.. I for one am not gonna come to America and take that chance of loosing my a$$'s virginity because of your disgusting leaders. Make a thread, and we will talk about US torture also, why not, but not here, getting further and further away from the settlement expansions.

You have never been to the US, yet you speak as if you are an expert on it. You have mislead others in other threads about the country you are from and the reason you left. You left Afghanistan because of the Taliban threat, not because of US military action.

Make a thread about my expertise in US torture.

Like others who drink the cool aid, haveing a differeing opinion that the Taliban can get you killed. Instead of openly stating thats the reason you left, and I imagine you probably still have family there so if anything is linked to you, it could place your family in jeopardy there, you tow the party line and blame the Americans.

My family is in North, we have been resisting the Taliban longer than you mate, so please don't make assumption.

Like the UN and other countries, you take the path of least resitance. Instead of the UN telling the Taliban they are despotes and abuse human rights, they concentrate on countries like the US, who have a rule of law, and where you can call the Government out and criticise them and not be rousted out of bed and killed in the middle of the night.

Make a thread about the UN and those countries, then we talk.

Any attempt you make to counter this staement will be seen as nothing but an uneducated response about how our Government and Legal system work based on what you are told. Having never been here to the US, you can't possibly understand how our system works.

Sorry mate, I'm not going to US to test your system. Make a thread and we will talk about the American system.

And by not going, you don't understand it. I find it intresting that you make accusations about people not understanding history, or a culture, when you are jsut as guilty of it. You are exactly what you accuse the US and Israeli Government of being. Your hatred is so blinding that you don't even see your actions as being the exact same as those you accuse.

I haven't raped anyone, nor have I lied intentionally to take people to war, nor have have tortured people. That being said, we need another thread for my accusations

How do we know about Germany... Well, unlike your statements that we should not look at the past, those of us who are itnrested in all sides of the story will look at History. If you actually studied history you might know this, as well as speaking intelligently on several topics in these forums. While we are on the comparion of Nazi Germany though I would suggest you do some more homework before making an attempt to draw paralells between Nazis and the US. The paralells between Nazis and the Taliban, Al Queda and the extremists who hijacked Islam are spitting images.. The only difference is their German sucks.Every single country on this planet will have paralells with the Actions of Nazi Germany.

Winners of war writes history, why not make a thread about that. It would be an interesting one.

The main difference I point out, is in the US you can make that statement and nothing would happen to you. Tri it in Afghanistan, or the Gaza strip, and the paralells would stop, and the actual events would start to repeat themselves in terms of summary execution.

Nope, I gave you the example of Al-Zawahiri, he's given the death sentence for his speech.

I generally don't take anything you say as being serious, because most of it is so far off base, or just plain wrong, its not even funny, but sad. As I stated before you post some very good stories, and make very good points. Howver you go off the tracks in your zeal to use whatever there is to hate Israel or the United States.

Just like the arguments of Hamas and Hezbollah, who could make very comelling arguments to the World, and gain support throughout the world on the actions Israel takes. Since Hamas and Hezbollah go out of their way to do whatever they can to show their blind hatred towards Israel, they loose credibility, and by extension the valid points they make, because they get drowned out by the extranious crap.

Make your post, and base your positions off that post to make your point. Going beyond like you do does nothing but undermine your position, causes people to not take you seriously, and in the end, the article you posted, is lost, along with whatever points you made and any support you may have created.

Any time you want to experince the United States, let me know. You are more then weclome to come stay in my house and experince what the US is, and what it is all about. Up to an including taking you to the Mosque in our city and showing how people can live in peace while expressing differing view points.

edit on 15-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-11-2010 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

When you choose a government that doesn't rap, spy, murder, torture then I might come for a visit, until then I will stay away.

Originally posted by oozyism
So you are suggesting Hamas pulled a coup when even after they were voted in Democratically? What is the point of a coup when you are already in the office.

As I said, and you wuld know if you studied history, you would see that Hamas gained the majority of seats in Parliment. Hamas brokered a deal with the PA to form a unity government, where the PA held the position of Prime Minister. When the PM made overatures to Israel, Hamas seized power, including removing the legitimately elected PA members for Gaza.

So yeah, when the group ignored their own agreements and forcibly removes legitimately elected officals, its a coup. Small comfort for the family who had their husband / father returned to them in a box. They were so nice in fact they sliced him up into steaks for the family.

Originally posted by oozyism
I find it odd you hold such a belief, that it was a coup lol.. I thought it was general knowledge that all aid to Palestine was blocked by the West and Israel which Palestinians depend on for their livelyhood. This aid forced Fatah in to submission to do as the West pleases which caused the conflict in the first place.

Aid was not blocked by the West nor Israel. This is what you get when you refuse to look at history.

Originally posted by oozyism

The period from March to December 2006 was marked by tensions when Fatah commanders refused to take orders from the government while the Palestinian Authority initiated a campaign of assassinations and abductions against Hamas.[13] which led to Hamas beginning its own.[

en.wikipedia.org...

Hmmmm ok - Read here for your history lesson - Battle of Gaza - 2007

Originally posted by oozyism
Israel has a right to defend itself, but Palestinians don't? The right to defend is universal, it doesn't just apply to the Zionist regime. The right to resist occupation is also a universal right, Palestinians have every right to resist Zionist occupation. Some beleive with any means necessary, some don't. Some believe kill those who forcefully steal land is OK, some say it is not. Those opinions exist in every society. In the US you step in someone else's house without permission, he would get shot, innocent or not.

Israel has a right to defend itself and so does the Palestinians. When Katusha rockets are launched from Gaza at civilian targets in Israel, I fail to see how the terrorists are defending themselves. The right to refuse occupation is granted to those people who are occupied, and not fighters from a multitude of countries who use the situation to fight a proxy war to eliminate Israel form the face of the Earth.

Thats not defending itself - Its called cold blooded murder.

Originally posted by oozyism
The charter has nothing to do with the expansion of settlements lol:
1. Israel already exists.
2. Israel have enough nukes to survive for a long time.

The charter has everything to do with why these 2 groups will never accept a peace treaty. Their charters call for the complete destruction of Israel, and refuses to recognize their right to exist.

Isreal does exist, and has nuckes to deter countries from the Middle East who try to invade them (which again if you read history you would see this happened numerous times in the past).

Originally posted by oozyism
Why should Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist when there is such a huge balance issue:
1. Israel already exists, Palestine doesn't.
2. Israel needs to free Palestine, and allow Palestinians to govern their own affairs as an independant nation.
3. Israel needs to remove its settlers.

Once all of the above happens, then expect Palestinians to see the Zionists in a different light, and I can guarantee their charter will change.

So we go from you stating Isreal has a right to exist, to they don't have a right to exist. Palestinians had a few opprotunites for their own state. The Arab governments made sure that was not going to happen. Why? Because they did not give a rats ass about the Palestinian people, but wanted to destroy Isreal, and used the Palestinians as their excuse.

Originally posted by oozyism
Do you know what accountable means? And what does Hariri's murder have to do with settlement expansions? Make a thread about it, and we will discuss it in depth.

Because this thread was talking about the Israeli artists who refused to go along with the Israeli Governments actions towards the settlements. You then, in true fashion, went beyond the article and brought up other issues, including US funding to Israel, Prophecies being fulfilled, restoration of old Israel and the actions of the "Zionist Regime".

Since you opened Pandoras Box, I responded with similar information, including the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah and their actions, whcih relate to your accusations. Again if you read history, instead of telling people to stick to one topic then ignoring it yourself, you might know this already.

Originally posted by oozyism
Nope, I will repeat myself, what does Hariri's murder have to do with settlement expansions, isn't that what we are discussing here. I have always said that if you bring the past, bring the whole past, in context.

It does, because Hezbollah is trying to push the blame over to Israel, and will use that as a pretext to continue to attack Israel on the North, and gives aid to Hamas to attack Israel from the SouthWest. Again if you did not look at problems from blinders you would see this.

Originally posted by oozyism
Hamas is a resistance group.

A resistance groups targets the enemies actions, not civilians. For reference you need to ince again look at history. Since you refuse to do so let me help.

WWII - French resistance
WWII - Dutch Resistance
WWII - Polich Resistance
Cold War - Polish Resistance
Cold War - East German Resistance
Cyrpus - Cypriot Resistance
Revolutionary America
Revolutionary Africa

Originally posted by oozyism
Hezbullah is a resistance group against Israel, we all know that by now, The right to resist occupation is a universal right.

Care to show me where Hezbollah has any business being involved in the Palestinian cause against Israel? Hamas controls the Gaza Strip, Fatwah Control the West Bank. Hezbollah is not resisting an occupation, but waging a war aginst the Jewish Stte in order to wie them off the Map.

Hezbullah in Lebanon was formed to resist Israeli occupation in southern Lebanon. Since Israli is no longer in Southern Lebanon, Hezbullah has no grounds to attack Israel anymore, except for their Charter which calls for its destruction. Since they are now beyond their origional intent, Hezbullah should cease all actions against Israel. Instead they continue to attack Israel, which does not make them a resistance, but an aggressor.

Hezbullah

Originally posted by oozyism
Why do you wanna discuss the Hariri assasinations? Make a thread, then we will discuss it in detail, I promise.

Because you make claims about the Israeli Government and their illegal actions, invokking Hezbollah as a resistance movement, which it is not. You invoke the UN resolutions with regards to Israel and its occupation, but dismiss the same UN when it doesnt work with your argument. Your "resistance" movement assasinated a Prime Minister, and is threatening to take over Lebanon. How exactyl does this make them resistance Fighters?

Originally posted by oozyism
I will repeat, make a thread about it..

You opened the flood gates here, so I will support my counter arguments to you using the info available. As I said before, don't start a thread, then derail it with ludicrous claims, then tell others who counter you to take the argument to another thread.

Originally posted by oozyism
Sure...

I am quite sure this will occur. Again learn history and think for yourself.

Originally posted by oozyism
You mean you want them to stop their resistance, so the Zionists can increase their settlement expansions? OOOOKKKK, sure, I will ask them to do that.

Again Hezbollah has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinian question. Settlement is a 2 way road. Israel has said they want to live in peace, which means Hamas and Hezbollah must recognize Israels right to exist. If they did this, and stopped killing Israli civilians, peace would work and ISrael would not need to create a buffer in the West Bank or Southern Lebanon. Quit killing civilians and ask for a seat at the table.

Originally posted by oozyism
The charters were created due to Israeli aggression, duuuuh.

Uhm, no.. They were created for the complete destruction of Israel. Aside from the 6 day war, which was a preemptive strike against countries who were massing troops oin the border, Israel has not been the agressor. Arab countries are the ones who have started the military campaigns against Israel.

Jordan and Egypt have peace treaties with Israel, and by gosh you don't here about either of them in the news attached to Israeli headlines unless its to help the peace process.

Originally posted by oozyism
That is his personal opinion, if you disagree, maybe you should argue with him, instead of trying to kill him. I have a thread about it, discuss it here:
Why do they want Anwar Al-Awlaki killed and his speeches banned??,

Actually its not a personal opinion, as he likes to spout of to the media, the latest being a call for the attacks on America and its citizens. Under US Immigration Law our Government cannot take away his citizenship. However, a person can voluntarilly relinquish their citizenship by taking up arms or beloning to a group who advocates the violent overthrow of this country.

His speeches are not band in this country, and as a matter of fact any person in thic country can access websites beloning to groups who advocate the destruction of America. Belonging to such group does not make you guilty of any crime, and criticising the Government of the US or its policies cannot get you in trouble either.

Way to defelct though... No way for you to support this guy without making a false claim about the US and what would happen if you came here. What your argument said, contrary to how you worded it, is if you come to the US you would be arrested because you are not a US citizen, which goes back and supports my argument that you have absolutely no concept of the United States except for what you are told to beleive.

Originally posted by oozyism
The above comes from a person who agrees with nuking of Japan killing hundred of thousands of innocent women and children. Talk about coward. Once again, make a thread about that too, and we will discuss it in depth.

Maybe Japan should not have declared war on the United States. Admiral Yamamoto warned the Japanese government about going to war with the US, coining the phrase waking a sleeping lion. Maybe you should brush up on history again and actually learn what occurs. It would make your arguments more believable and less like you are grasping at straws, reinforcing the view you have no idea what you are taloking about.

Originally posted by oozyism
America has abducted dozens of innocent people and send them to torture camps, not much different than the Nazis really.. I for one am not gonna come to America and take that chance of loosing my a$$'s virginity because of your disgusting leaders. Make a thread, and we will talk about US torture also, why not, but not here, getting further and further away from the settlement expansions.

Abduction comes into play with the incidents occuring in the Middle East. I beleive terrorists groups still have Israeli soldiers as hostages, parading them around on TV. Executing their own citizens because they want peace with Israel. Brainwashing children by showing muppets who are suicide bombers, urging them to kill themselves for God.

You have no idea what America is, and its more and more evident of your biased arguments with your wild accusations about this country. Waterboarding someone, as oppsed to cutting their heads off, is different and you know this. You just chose to ignore it because it undermines your position.

Originally posted by oozyism
Make a thread about my expertise in US torture.

You have never been to the US, so any thread that talks about your expertise with US torture would be placed in the Hoax forums.

Originally posted by oozyism
My family is in North, we have been resisting the Taliban longer than you mate, so please don't make assumption.

Lol.. you have now answered this differently. You first stated you were from Pakistan at one point. Then said the reason you left Afghanistan because of US actions there. Now its you left because you were from the North. ok.....

Originally posted by oozyism
Make a thread about the UN and those countries, then we talk.

deflection

Originally posted by oozyism
Sorry mate, I'm not going to US to test your system. Make a thread and we will talk about the American system.

Defelction and Uneducated. New Zealand has the same Laws and the US does. This just shows your ignorance and misdirected hatred towards a system and ountry you know nothing about.

Originally posted by oozyism
I haven't raped anyone, nor have I lied intentionally to take people to war, nor have have tortured people. That being said, we need another thread for my accusations

We find your blind accusations in every thread you post in, including this one.

Originally posted by oozyism
Winners of war writes history, why not make a thread about that. It would be an interesting one.

Deflection

Originally posted by oozyism
Nope, I gave you the example of Al-Zawahiri, he's given the death sentence for his speech.

Deflection - and uneducated on the issue. He was placed on the assassination list becaause of his actions, not speech. He has every right to avail himself of the US legal system, and this has been stated numerous times to him. He choses not to because if he did he couldn't kill innocent people in the process. His actions are along the lines of the Taliba, Al-Queida, Iran, Syria, Hezbullah, Hamas etc.

Originally posted by oozyism
When you choose a government that doesn't rap, spy, murder, torture then I might come for a visit, until then I will stay away.

Deflection and unedcation.

What you are really saying is you don't want to run the risk of finding out everything you have been brainwashed about the United States is wrong, which would undermine your agenda. God forbid you exercise independant thought and find answers on your own.

Every claim you make is indicative of the problems in the Middle East. A problem viewed from only one angle with opinions put in place of fact.

As I said, this thread you made was a positive one. You single handedly derailed the thread, and completely ignored the actions of Israeli's who stood up for Palestinians by once again making claims about the US, which had nothing to do with the article at all.

Instead of focusing on that accomplishment and giving credit to Israeli's and their actions, its almost like your nueral wiring would fritz out by having to admit Israeli's did something good.

As I said in the other thread you made. I will continue to respond to your threads with facts to counter your claims. I am not going to go away, and you can argue all you want about how we should ignore topics you invoke in your threads, then you want to ignore them because you lose the argument.

Your unwillingness to see other sides of this story shows what your intentions are in these threads. A prime example of the unwillingness - This Thread. Your comments had nothing to do with the article.

Think about that.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I will ask you one question, because this is getting too big lol.. One reply equals one page hahaha..

Anyways, here is my question, and try to keep it short, it is Eid:

Why should Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist, if Palestine doesn't exist?

reply to post by oozyism


Now that is a very good question.

Why did Palestine turn down the chances they had for their own State? We both agree the expansion into the territories is a huge issue, if not the 1 of the top 3 on the palestinian - israeli issues list.

The only answer I can come up with is neither side's Government is willing to negotiate in good faith. Until both sides citizens make the changes, its an endless cycle.

We both make the argument that each side is defending itself. One side has to take the lead to get over the hump.

Neither side can be saddled with 100% of the blame, It is a 50/50 split. You make the argument about the issues the Palestinians have, and I make the argument about the issues the Israeli's have.

Neither one of us wants to cede any ground because we both see one side of the problem, but not the other.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Actually the answer is simpler than you think, I will be on your side this time.

Why should Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, when Palestine doesn't exist?

The answer:

Because the Palestinians want a state, and if they want to get one step closer to that dream, then they should recognize Israel's right to exist.

Then we turn the table around and look at it from the other perspective:

Why does Israel care if Palestinians, or anyone for that matter recognizes their right to exist or not, when Israel already exists?

I will let you answer that question.

Please keep it short

reply to post by oozyism


Israel has no issues with a Palestinian State, and has no issues with the Palestinian people. The issue Israel has is with Hamas/Hezbullah, Syrian, Iran, etc. Hamas is the Government of Gaza, Fatwah is the Government of the West Bank. 2 different governments, 2 different territories, supposedly both palestinian, but are not ruled in that manner.

Israel, during all of the meetings, negotiations, peace treaties etc has asked for the right to exist, and the right to be free from attacks.

The extreme groups running these areas will not give in on that point. Even ceasefire's are ignored by Hamas / Hezbullah, usually only lasting about 6 months if they are lucky.

Hamas and Hezbullah are proxies for Iran and Syria. As long as those 2 groups, supported by Iran and Syria, are in any type of government capacity for Palestinians, then htere will not be any peace, and those groups have stated as much.

Granting a Palestinian State without assurances that the attacks on Israel will stop does not create an incentive for Israel to go through with the State. What occurs is the creation of a Sovereign state that would continue its attacks on Israel. A Sovereign Palestinian State would quickly be allied with Syria, Iran etc, and because they are Soveirgn, they can invite whomever they want into their country, including Hezbullah, and military units from Iran, Syria etc etc.

Any attack against Israel, followed by retaliation from Israel, and taking into account Palestine is its own country, means it moves from an internal issue of Israels, to an international armed conflict / war.

Why should Israel run the risk of having a trained, well armed well funded influx of Iranian or Syrian troops deployed directly along their border? When the Iranian President gives his speeched, it makes one wonder what his intentions are. He has not been shy on the topic of Israel and what he would like to see happen, and this is in addition to his continued public support of groups whose aim is to remove Israel.

Its a tit for tat game now. Israeli forces withdrew from Gaza, yet they are still attacked by katusha rockets. Would it non be prudent and logical to maybe stop the attacks and work on trying to fix Gaza. As long as the attacks continue, the answer from ISraeli will be the same, and we see this game plan does not work.

Why not stop the attacks, and work on resolving the blockade. Take the high ground and force Israel to play by international rules. If Hamas does nothing to give Israel a reason to respond, Israel would very quickly lose the support of the International community who supports them.

The best way I can describe this is Domestic Violence and how the law works here in the states. It does not matter who started the fight. The primary physical agressor is going to be the one held accountible.

The Palestinians want the following:
* Their own State
*Control over their own economy (airports and sea ports)
* Their own security forces
* Right of return
*Compensation for land
* Jeruslam as their Capital.
* Control over their religious Holy Sites within Jerusalem.

The ISralis want the following:
* The recognized right to exist by Palestinians and Hamas/Hezbullah etc
* Assurances that guratee Israeli security
* The attacks to stop

The Palestinians want their list all at the same time (which they passed up a few times in the past). Why not go for the state and a few other areas, and phase in the rest, relying on UN Resolutions that both sides agreed to in principle. Get Palestine established with International recognition and a seat in the UN. Then use influnce to further the process, allowing both sides to build trust.

When Israel and Palestinians met with President Obama in Wahsington a month or so ago, a car omb went off in Israel killing a family. Hamas climed responsibility for it, in an attempt to force a response from Israel to derail the talks. Why derail talks that held real promise for a change?