Protesters attack police at Belgrade Gay Pride parade

reply to post by The Revenant


Sounds like a plan. You should be up to 20 posts by now though. I'll test and ping you an instant message.

Fascism is rearing its ugly head again and gaining some serious ground. Damn, we fought two world wars to stop this.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


This is very true - it's just a shame that not all sections of western societies have grown with the rest of us.

I often find the 'Baptist Church' and their commentaries on Gay Rights to be extremely enlightening.

Rev.

reply to post by LarryLove


Ok so what would you teach children about tolerance that's not been taught already.
I think you've got to accept that some people will hate other people who are different to themselves no matter what they're taught as a child it's in they're nature. so what happens to them?

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Yes, I would want to feel I belong too. No doubt Serbia has a long history of intolerance for homosexuality. To me, their just people, often very sensitive people.
It wasn't so long ago here in America that gays were openly mocked. I am old enough to remember those sad days. We have grown some here in the US.

Things are better than they were a generation ago thats for sure. Its a slow process and education is key to this process. However the only way to see real change is to wait a generation or two. Education only reaches the children in these cases and the adults are stuck in their ways. Only maybe 1 out of 20 adults will ever change their minds about personal biasm through out their lives, and thats most likely a generous ratio.
Its sad but the hatred we are seeing today will not go away for another 20-30 years. It will take an entire generation to grow for this to happen.

reply to post by monobrow


You're talking about the theist argument of the 'human condition' are you not?

No such thing bucko. It has been proven time and again in various scientific fields that persona's are the result of the environment in which they grow in, not as a result of some underlying fault or flaw or characteristic.

Rev.

Originally posted by The Revenant
reply to post by monobrow

 

You're talking about the theist argument of the 'human condition' are you not?

No such thing bucko. It has been proven time and again in various scientific fields that persona's are the result of the environment in which they grow in, not as a result of some underlying fault or flaw or characteristic.

Rev.

I dont believe we are 100% products of our enviroment. Maybe 60/40 or 50/50. I have personal experience with this idea. I never knew my father until I was 17. My mom never talked about him and I had no contact with him. When we met for the first time we were so similar it was eerie. Our speech mannerisms, physical mannerisms, interests, everything. We both loved astronomy and were both amature astronomers. We both loved the same anime's and video games. We both loved Star Trek over Star Wars. It was creepy. Because of this experience I really thought about what makes up persons inherent interests and social and personal patterns. I couldnt deny that we are influenced by our enviroments but at the same time we are influenced by our genetics as well.

reply to post by TheKnave


Ahhh now that's different. (we're off track here but hey it's interesting)

You're talking about Genetic predispositions. That and certain socio-cultural trends having an effect.

Rev.

reply to post by The Revenant


Ok a bit of topic here. But if environment alone shapes someone's personality how do you explain when you have twins that one is good and one is bad. Surely they should both be good or bad as they are raised in the same environment.

I did a little digging around and found what I believe are some good descriptions of what Fascism is. I think it is vitally important to understand what to expect from a totalitarian regime.

From: Politcal Research Associates
What is Fascism? Some General Ideological Features
by Matthew N. Lyons

Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. To this end, fascism calls for a "spiritual revolution" against signs of moral decay such as individualism and materialism, and seeks to purge "alien" forces and groups that threaten the organic community. Fascism tends to celebrate masculinity, youth, mystical unity, and the regenerative power of violence. Often, but not always, it promotes racial superiority doctrines, ethnic persecution, imperialist expansion, and genocide. At the same time, fascists may embrace a form of internationalism based on either racial or ideological solidarity across national boundaries. Usually fascism espouses open male supremacy, though sometimes it may also promote female solidarity and new opportunities for women of the privileged nation or race.

I find that a good general description of Fascism. In economics, it is the marriage of state and corporate interests. I found the following list on Rense.com:

Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism By Dr. Lawrence Britt Source Free Inquiry.co 5-28-3 Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

America, unfortunately, seems to be using all 14 points. Sexism being the only point that is more sublimated through the media and not as overtly expressed as the other 13 points.
Last I found this at The Library of Economics and Liberty
The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics

Fascism by Sheldon Richman
To maintain high employment and minimize popular discontent, fascist governments also undertook massive public-works projects financed by steep taxes, borrowing, and fiat money creation. While many of these projects were domestic—roads, buildings, stadiums—the largest project of all was militarism, with huge armies and arms production.

Doesn't that describe America to a "T" ?

reply to post by The Revenant


you lost me when you labeled my mom who voted for bill clinton, al gore, and her democratic congressman a fascist because she goes to tea party events.

reply to post by monobrow


Inevitably, in that situation, there will be differences caused by post-natal care and experiences. These early differences, althought subtle at first, will cause divergence and difference later in life. Life is not uniform in the same way for two different people - there will always be differences which sway the course.

Do two snowflakes from the same cloud, the fall at the same time, in the same general location share exactly the same traits? No, they don't - the same thing applies.

Rev.

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by The Revenant

 

you lost me when you labeled my mom who voted for bill clinton, al gore, and her democratic congressman a fascist because she goes to tea party events.

edit on 10-10-2010 by snusfanatic because: (no reason given)

Your mum may be well intentioned, and availed of certain select information. Therefore, in her world view, the tea party is a good thing. The more she learns, and UNDERSTANDS about the TEA party, perhaps then she will support them less and less, and maybe even move against them. A possibility no?

Rev.

reply to post by The Revenant


a possibility, yes. although i doubt it. i think people have the majority of 'tea parties' misread. i agree with you that the belgrade thing is disgusting and yes, fascism is here. but it's always been with us. i just don't like to see the truth that 'facism is here' conflated with the notion that 'facism is everywhere.' good news find though.

Originally posted by The Revenant
That's right - remember, being anti-gay IS fascist. Being anti-[insert ethnic origin here] IS fascist. Being anti-[insert whatever belief someone could hold] IS fascist.

With the greatest respect to the sentiments of the OP, being anti-gay et al is not fascist. The word “fascist” is being incorrectly used to paint a picture against people who may hold a contrary view against something and the use of the word “fascist” denigrates and diminishes the meaning. It seems that some people will call anyone a fascist as a term of general abuse.

Please research what fascism means.

May help a BBC narrative

To topic… The world is full of anti-gay people and societies. Half the world is anti gay. Only liberal democracies seem to have settled down to accept homosexuality.

Regards

reply to post by The Revenant


Is being anti-guns fascist? What about anti-graffiti? How about anti-violence?

Fascism is in the eye of the beholder. I do not support violence against others for petty reasons such as disagreeing with another person's sexual orientation. I think it is very sad that people can hate and want to harm other people for such trivial reasons, but that is just my opinion.

On the other hand however, isn't a Gay Pride Parade in itself an unfair inconvenience to those living near the area where it takes place? Maybe I should organise a Left Handedness Pride parade around people who don't really care what your preferred handedness happens to be?

Edit: Double Post.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by Goathief

 

What happens when "far Left groups" organise protests that usually result in violence, profanity and vandalism at the expense of people living in the surrounding areas? G20 anyone? There are bad people in all groups and communities. Your tendency to continually refer to an abstract "Right Wing Enemy" only intensifies the Right/Left divide.

Which G20 are you referring to, and what parts exactly?

I agree there are "bad" people everywhere, there are racists from all ethnic backgrounds for example - whenever did I claim otherwise? You really want me to name actual right-wing groups who could be identified as the enemy, yet there are plenty of commonly known ones. Feigning ignorance does you no favours and I believe singling out specific groups only furthers this left/right conflict you speak of which is why I have not named any aside from one from the left that was previously mentioned (and a more extreme example, I guess?).

Thank-you for bringing up this point however, as I think it demonstrates how far to the right Britain (in particular, England) is heading. There are quite a few prolific far-right/neo-Nazi parties and organisations who are gaining "legitimate" political power and popular opinion, where are the far-left parties? Absolutely nowhere, really. I wouldn't say the UAF is one, although of course there is a small element of communists who will attend a rally - the key message is "Against fascism" - not, "against the right", hence their popularity with people across a pretty broad political spectrum.

As you seem sympathetic to those "right-wing enemies" you identified, could you kindly address the balance and provide some British "left-wing enemies"?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Edit: Double Post.

edit on 10/10/2010 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

What, you must be having second thoughts about that post as it certainly wasn't a double. No need to lie about it, is there?

Originally posted by Asktheanimals

Doesn't that describe America to a "T" ?

I'd say it's an almost perfect description of England too. Perhaps this is a indication of where the "Western world" is now.

Simply put, it's because of the parents that racism, bigotry, and hate violence continues to proliferate the world. No matter how much a child may be educated to accept others or how much everyone around them is nice and loving, if the parents are evil, then they will raise a child with evil views if they can.

reply to post by The Revenant


The facism you speak of is already here. It is not the upcoming groups like the Tea Party movement. No, they have been in power since 1913.

They are called the Federal Reserve.