G. Edward Griffin talks about new CHEMTRAIL film, plus more evidental proof that CHEMTRAIL's are TO

Originally posted by the seeker_713g
For the last 12 years I have watched numerous times as the skies would be covered in a criss-cross pattern of contrails that would hang suspended for hours without dissipating while also watching normal, narrower contrails being left by other aircraft that faded away at the same time.

And in all that time, you didn't bother to document this behavior so it could be verified that it wasn't simply the difference in altitude? And how does your 'theory' take into account the increase in air traffic over the last 12 years, and your increased motive to observe, exactly?

But thanks for coming.

Who needs evidence when you have anecdotes...

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


So did you actually see them use it???

Originally posted by The Magicians Apprentice
reply to post by Maybe...maybe not

 

So did you actually see them use it???

The Magicians Apprentice.....

Yes.....

I did & I do.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by CHRLZ

Originally posted by the seeker_713g
For the last 12 years I have watched numerous times as the skies would be covered in a criss-cross pattern of contrails that would hang suspended for hours without dissipating while also watching normal, narrower contrails being left by other aircraft that faded away at the same time.

And in all that time, you didn't bother to document this behavior so it could be verified that it wasn't simply the difference in altitude? And how does your 'theory' take into account the increase in air traffic over the last 12 years, and your increased motive to observe, exactly?

But thanks for coming.

Who needs evidence when you have anecdotes...

Friend, no where did I at any time do more that state what I have observed; please point out where I stated this as evidence for or against the argument concerning chemtrail vs contrail, nor promote, state, or advocate nor postulate any reason as to why this was so, only stated what I had observed, and did not state whether or not that I had taken notes or documented these events...

I also choose to not answer your questions or postulate any theory simply because I choose not to due to the perceived tone of your reply.

seeker

reply to post by the seeker_713g


I already provided some information on the contracts, but.... I guess people did not even read it to understand it.
Ahh....... humanity why is it always like this

Kind Regards

M

reply to post by The Magicians Apprentice
Friend, I believe you must have replied to my post in error; I have read every post in this thread, which I admit that few do, and yes, I did read yours; but I do not recall addressing your postings or commenting on them.


seeker

reply to post by the seeker_713g


sorry dear sir.

Kind Regards

M

Originally posted by the seeker_713g
Friend, no where did I at any time do more that state what I have observed; please point out where I stated this as evidence for or against the argument concerning chemtrail vs contrail

Why, certainly. Allow me to quote you and highlight the telling sentences:

I have lived and worked for most of the last 40 years in close proximity to Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport, am also not far from Dobbins NAS, so I am very accustomed to seeing many aircraft overhead at any given moment. For the last 12 years I have watched numerous times as the skies would be covered in a criss-cross pattern of contrails that would hang suspended for hours without dissipating while also watching normal, narrower contrails being left by other aircraft that faded away at the same time.

You are clearly suggesting there has been a significant change, and that you are an experienced observer. You did not, however, elucidate on, or even acknowledge any other factors that might have skewed your perception. You also did not discuss why contrails might develop into persisting cirrus clouds at one altitude, and not at an another. All of that strongly indicates you have a bias towards one side of the discussion.

Are we being subjected to aerial spraying? Perhaps... after all, the public population has been used for clandestine guinea pigs many times by the PTB, so it really wouldn't surprise me; after all, they do put flouride in public water systems...

I'm sorry... what???? Can you tell me which portion of the population has been clandestinely flouridated?

I also choose to not answer your questions or postulate any theory simply because I choose not to due to the perceived tone of your reply.

No, of course you didn't. So getting back on topic, how is it that NOT ONE chemtrail believer, has EVER posted a documented video of a contrail that shouldn't have been there. I have explained numerous times how this could be done, but nobody has EVER managed to do it. That can only be one of 3 things:
- they don't care enough
- they know what the results will be, so would rather not
- they did so, and found to their horror that the conditions were perfect for contrail formation and/or persistence.

This isn't rocket science. The ways to verify flights, their altitudes and the conditions at those altitudes (esp in the US) are easy to find (I've outlined them on several occasions), and the information is verifiable.

Yet the chemmies can't quite manage to use that information to create a case.

They are CONTRAILS.

reply to post by CHRLZ

I realize you are not addressing me, but why the cross examine?
For the record, I have witnessed the same thing. If you like, I will find numerous links of people around the world that have witnessed the SAME thing.
As for sodium-fluoride, that was a coordinated effort by government and big business to poison the people for profit, while lying about the benefits.
Do a little research on your own, or have you?
Edit to add: Proof is subjective, you either value the sources or you don't. Your "contrails" cannot be proven to be contrails, while people have collected samples of the material sprayed. Trust it or not, but don't pretend they don't exist..

Originally posted by Stewie
I realize you are not addressing me, but why the cross examine?

Simple. Chemtrails are a silly myth, promoted by people either without a clue, or to make money from selling books and videos. I'm tryin to protect the gullible, and stop them scaring the even more gullible.

And IF there was any truth to the 'chem'trail claim - WHY don't you, or indeed ANY chemtrail believer, simply document a single example of an aircraft leaving trails when it shouldn't? You can't even show me ONE?

It would be EASY to do, if the claim had any basis in reality.. But it doesn't, so there are no such examples.

For the record, I have witnessed the same thing.

And I believe in fairies. I offer the same proof as you, a meaningless proclamation on a forum.

You witnessed... CONtrails.

If you like, I will find numerous links of people around the world that have witnessed the SAME thing.

What a complete waste of time. Anecdotes from the uneducated are meaningless.

As for sodium-fluoride, that was a coordinated effort by government and big business to poison the people for profit, while lying about the benefits.

Another opinion without support, offtopic and designed to distract.

Do a little research on your own, or have you?

I know all about the conditions that are conducive to contrails. I know how to identify flights. I know how to use a video camera and document my location, date and time. I know how to use upper altitude weather soundings to determine what conditions existed at the altitude of the flight thus indentified. Any questions????

I've even gone through this process step by step. Do I need to repeat it, again, because you are too lazy to do your own research?

Clearly YOU don't know those things. You have now demonstrated that YOU haven't done your research, just like the other chemtrail believers. Because if you had, you would be presenting those videos, in great numbers, proving that the trails shouldn't exist. But YOU and other chemtrail believers haven't done that. NO chemtrail believer ever has.

That's probably the biggest FAIL in recorded conspiracy history..

Proof is subjective, you either value the sources or you don't.

That's a crock. I don't believe people who handwave and make completely unsupported claims. I do believe those who show they understand the topic and go the extra ten feet (it certainly ain't a mile) required to offer a simple SUPPORTED claim.

Your "contrails" cannot be proven to be contrails

RUBBISH. Shall we start by doing some basic science - let's start with your kettle, you know that steamy stuff that comes out of it when it boils? Yes? Well that's a start. How about that similar, but very cold 'steam' that comes out of your mouth on a very cold morning..? Ever seen it? Understand what it is? What do you think happens when you get down to freezing point? take a wild guess... Do you seriously not understand that different atmospheric conditions affect what happens when large amounts of water vapour are injected into the air? And that air temperature drops very rapidly as you go up? This stuff is VERY well documented. And if it were untrue, clouds (esp. cirrus) would not exist. Do you deny that clouds exist?

In the US, it is EASY to identify a flight, its altitude, and then determine the air conditions at that height. So CONtrails CAN be easily proven. I'm very very sorry that you don't understand this, perhaps you should do a little reading, given you seem interested in the topic...

while people have collected samples of the material sprayed.

Yes, in bowls on the back of pickup trucks...? Yeah, and the 'trails' will of course be the only stuff getting in them thar bowls, fallin' straight down from 30,000feet. And then all you need is some idiot reporter to multiplies the levels of GROUND-BORNE contaminants by many magnitudes and .. you have a news story!!

I'm sorry, perhaps that notorious example isn't your best - so back to you - PROVIDE YOUR BEST PROOF OF 'CHEM'TRAIL SAMPLING (and don't forget to tell us exactly how and where they were collected, and show us the test report). You *know* where that will end - but good luck!!

Trust it or not, but don't pretend they don't exist..

I'll trust it, if you can document it. Chain of evidence, provenance, documented methodology, proper controls and background tests... you know what is required. Yeah, that'll be real good - just post it all here, when you're ready...

Like I said, good luck. May I suggest you do a little more research on the topic before you re-enter the battle of wits. You seem to be a little short of armament...

And don't bother with the anecdotes. The 'Henny Penny' methodology is not generally accepted here...

reply to post by CHRLZ

"What a complete waste of time. Anecdotes from the uneducated are meaningless."

Your comments are anecdotes. How ironic.

You pretend you can explain all of the photographs out there, while refuting all personal testimony given by others. Your truths are built upon this pretense, that YOU know, and THEY don't. Pretty arrogant position.

Since it means nothing to YOU, why argue the point that the experience and observations of others can have merit.
That would be an exercise in futility, as you have clearly demonstrated.
But, hey, have a good day.

reply to post by Stewie


Personal testimony and anecdotes only hightlight the ignorance of the person making them.
I have been told many times that "chemtrails" have been tested. Where is the documentation? Without, the comment is meaningless.
I have been told many times that the same plane is flying back and forth, making a deliberate pattern. Where is the pictures, videos, and proof that it is, in fact, the same plane? Without, the comment is meaningless.
I have been told that contrails are "real" when they dissipate, and "chemtrail" if they don't. How can this be applied to the formations of clouds? Do real clouds dissipate? Are persistent clouds fake? Without the proof of this comparison, the comment is meaningless.
I've been told many times that the open documented study of environmental effects by atmospheric aerosols is both validation and comfirmation of "chemtrails". Please, give a cite from such reports that specifically mentions the chemical content of the aerosols being delivered by airplanes. I've read many of the reports and I cannot find this mentioned. I can understand the reports because I know what an "atmospheric aerosol" is. Do you? Do most "chemtrailers"? Without a knowledgable grasp of the term, any speculation garnered from these reports is meaningless.
You see, anecdotes and observations without documentationof any kind are meaningless. I could believe in zombies, tell stories about it, believe I saw it, find the books with all kinds of zombie content......but without a photo and some form of testing, who would believe me? And why would they?
"Chemtrails" are a fairy-tale, promoted by hucksters to the unlearned and gullible. It's a product of the internet age, when people would rather make up stories about pretty pictures than open a book without them.

reply to post by stars15k

I will make it REALLY simple.
I have personally witnessed a "contrail" EXPAND and DRIFT DOWNWARD into the immediate area where I live. I had the time, so I sat and watched. This was at a time when the sky was being crisscrossed, and I DON'T live in an area with a huge amount of air travel.
I realize this means nothing to you, but it does to me. So, therefore, I will try to learn what that stuff is/was.

reply to post by Stewie


As far as I know and was told is that some of that stuff is actually radioactive material so it would not be wise to stand out under it for too long. If you understand what I mean on that part..... so it is highly unsafe to spend too much time in the area with constant chem bursts per week or every couple days.

Kind Regards

M

reply to post by The Magicians Apprentice

Here is an interesting video, that shows some testing done. Of course, it means nothing....



Just anecdotal evidence.....

edit: It appears the video is not working, at least at the moment. It can be found here...

100777.com...

Another link worth checking out....

www.geoengineeringwatch.org...

Project Cloverleaf

Airline companies in
America have been participating in something called Project Cloverleaf
for a few years now. The earliest date anyone remembers being briefed
on it is 1998. I was briefed on it in 1999. The few airline employees
who were briefed on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo
background checks, and before we were briefed on it we were made to sign
non-disclosure agreements, which basically state that if we tell anyone
what we know we could be imprisoned.

About twenty employees in our office were briefed along with my by two
officials from some government agency. They didn't tell us which one.
They told us that the government was going to pay our airline, along
with others, to release special chemicals from commercial aircraft.
When asked what the chemicals were and why we were going to spray them,
they told us that information was given on a need-to-know basis and we
weren't cleared for it. They then went on to state that the chemicals
were harmless, but the program was of such importance that it needed to
be done at all costs. When we asked them why didn't they just rig
military aircraft to spray these chemicals, they stated that there
weren't enough military aircraft available to release chemicals on such
a large basis as needs to be done. That's why Project Cloverleaf was
initiated, to allow commercial airlines to assist in releasing these
chemicals into the atmosphere. Then someone asked why all the secrecy
was needed. The government reps then stated that if the general public
knew that the aircraft they were flying on were releasing chemicals into
the air, environmentalist groups would raise hell and demand the
spraying stop. Someone asked one of the G-men then if the chemicals are
harmless, why not tell the public what the chemicals are and why we are
spraying them? He seemed perturbed at this question and told us in a
tone of authority that the public doesn't need to know what's going on,
but that this program is in their best interests. He also stated that
we should not tell anyone, nor ask any more questions about it. With
that, the briefing was over.

www.carnicom.com...

and then you wonder how you can get such cheap airline fares all
over the world. Some as low as $29.00. Because the airlines are
getting paid to spray and making the majority of their profits from
the spraying, not from your air fare. That's how they stay in business
with such low fares. The Gov foots the majority of the bill.
You are just the guinea pig flying in the contaminated tin can.

Some questions asked to and answered by an insider to the chemtrail operation,
the Shield Project eventually became Project Cloverleaf.
This insider had a code name ttitled "Deep Shield". To our dismay, this insider is no longer alive.
He was found at his home in California in his car dead with a hose from his exhaust piped into
his vehicle. There was no suicide note. some even believe it was not suicide.
But maybe we can all get some insight into his last interview on the chemtrail issue.

If this spraying is to mitigate global warming, why does so much of it take place at night?

Though it would appear that the dispersal rate of the spray is fast, it is actually takes much longer to be an effective shield. There is a desired concentration being sought. One that is thick enough to stem the UV and the Infrared, while being thin enough to allow visible light through.

What is the relationship between these spraying programs and One World Order?

European Union Nations, USA and Russia are the largest contributors to the project, many of the allied nations and UN Members participate to one extent or another. The material (chemical spray as you may call it) comes from all of these nations.

To insure that the chemicals are not tampered with, they are mixed and sprayed over random nations. This means that chemicals produced in the USA has a good chance of being sprayed over Russia, England and the USA. This random spray of material means that no nation would be certain that their chemicals will be sprayed over a nation which they have issues with. Russian planes may be seen in USA skies, but so too will USA planes be seen in Russian skies. The canisters used are sealed in a third nation that has no idea where its canister is going. Participating nations have their observers at every station where canister loading is done. All of this to insure that the shield is not used as a weapon.

Is the Spraying related to terrorism?

Yes and no. Recent terrorist activity can be traced to resistance groups who feel that we should not interfere with the natural order of things.

Why all the secrecy?

Due to the severity of the situation it is mandatory to maintain public calm for as long as possible. The Earth is dying. Humanity is on the road to extinction - without the Shield mankind will die off with in 20 to 50 years.

When will spraying stop?

There are several factors governing this:

A. Should the Ozone layer repair itself or our active attempts at repair reduces the amount of ground level UV to acceptable levels, spraying will stop. Present calculations place this between 2018 and 2024.

B. Should another method be found which is more effective, less costly or presents us with long-term solutions the Shield Project would be replaced.

C. When the other problems become too big to make the maintenance of the shield worth the effort. The estimated date for this is 2025 to 2050.

Since Global Warming and UV summer are the problem, why is the Government backing down on its pollution controls?

Because they are ineffectual and will cause more economic problems than they would solve ecological problems. We surpassed the threshold of Earth's ability to absorb pollutants in the 1970's. Since that time the earth's population has nearly doubled. Emerging Industrial nations have come into being, more pollutants are produced now than back then, even with the stringent controls in place. The world is heading for economic depression, more emission controls would add to the economic problems. This translates into our being unable to do anything to start solving the problems.

What government agency or agencies control this program? Is it under international control?

It is an international program. Many nations contribute in different ways. Measures have been taken to insure that what is sprayed over all countries is the same through triple blind deliveries; which include not knowing where a certain canister will end up


How are you related to the Chemtrails? How do you know that this is what is happening?

I would prefer to not state who I am or how I am related to all of this. To validate what I say, would require a bit of research on your behalf. I would recommend the following subjects to look up and study:

A. Population numbers for industrial nations and the tons of pollutants produced annually. Start with 1975 and work your way up.

B. Number of emerging Industrial Nations.

C. Number of cases of Skin cancers worldwide.

D. Crop Production vs. land area dedicated to crop production. Simple math will show that more acreage is needed to produce food per individual.

E. Automobile production from 1975 to present, estimated number of autos on the road and the average emissions of later model cars produced as compared the emissions of earlier model cars. A little math will show that though individual autos produce less emissions, the amount of emissions has risen due to the number of autos on the road. Remember that many autos are the road that were built before present emission control standards. 1980 is a cut off date - anything put on the road before then produces more pollutants than autos produced today. I would include research in the number of diesel autos produced, diesel has not been under the emissions control acts.

F. Severity of storms and the number of severe storms. Also include heat waves and droughts in that research, you will find that the numbers are staggering when compared to data from 1950, 1960 and 1970.

G. Research how naturally occurring Ozone is produced in the stratosphere. Compare to how it is produced industrially.

H. Research political reforms in the past 30 years, see which political institutions have changed, which nations have joined with whom. Concentrate more on these from 1982 onward. This would include the fall of the Wall and Iron Curtain.

I. Research polymers and how they are made, look at recent research done in biological polymers, medical polymers and filaments.

J. Check out spiders and spider web and the way spiders use their different webs and threads.

K. Research clean fresh water estimates as compared to the 1970's to today - world wide.

L. Research the following medical conditions per capita: Birth Defects Cancers Leukemia Immune deficiency diseases (excluding virus borne ID illnesses such as HIV) Occurrences of Learning disabilities, including dyslexia, ADD, and over all IQ tests Sterility for both male and females world wide Instances of glaucoma and cataracts.

M. Compare the history of UV indexes from 1970 to present. You may note that it was on sharp rise until 1997-99.

N. I would strongly recommend researching the reactions of different barium and aluminum compounds and how they are used. Research how long it takes for these metals in pure form to oxidize, how they combine with nitrates, carbon monoxide carbon dioxide and fluorocarbons and hydrocarbons and water vapor.

O. Research how mold propagates, the conditions it needs to grow and just how abundant it is in the atmosphere.

Have you signed a non-disclosure or Secrets Act document that specifically relates to this project?

Yes.

How is the project funded - who pays for it?

Most governments tend to over charge themselves to cover for their black operations (unofficial operations). That money comes out of the collection of taxes. So in effect the taxpayers of the world are paying for this project.

Is the Shield Project the only such aerial spraying program?

Is it the only project designed to avert ecological disaster? Then yes. There are countless other projects that could be taking place which include spraying of some sort or another. Pesticides are usually sprayed. There has been great interest in weather control such as bringing rain to arid regions and taking the punch out of hurricanes and typhoons.

Weather control may be one of the final options left to us. Considering the amount of global warming that has taken place. There is a strong need to deflect a storm's fury, or to bring rain back to those regions which have been suffering drought.

There are reports of four different chemtrail programs and other "code" names. For example, see: Holmestead: Chemtrails - what are they? Any comments?

It is possible that the Military does have a use for similar sprays. I cannot speak for the Military. However, my own personal research has come across these things as well. Are they possible? Yes. Are they practical? Only in the small scale say over the battlefield, or in the case of say the Iraq War, over Baghdad. Global application would be far too expensive and would require an obvious flight pattern of grids, circles and other heavy spray patterns.

Is all the spraying done using the "tank kits" described earlier or are the KC-135R and KC-10 types filled to the brim? Such aircraft have a load capacity of 200,000 pounds or more for refueling missions.

No. Several types of craft are used. Commercial jet airliners are used and they are not diverted from their flight paths to do so.

Is there any truth in the story that some of the spraying is done by jetliners with modifications in the "honey" or waste compartment?

The technology used for spraying is rather simple. It requires at least two tanks under pressure, each carries half of the mixture which is sprayed at the same time forming a complete compound which is designed to be lightweight (so as to be suspended for longer periods of time).

There have been attempts to incorporate the materials in jet fuel, however the material binds with unburned jet fuel, water vapor, etc and does not have the added buoyancy of the polymer threads. The end result is a spray that is less than half as effective and is more dangerous since it can lead to sulfates, acids and other mixtures, which are more lethal than the spray.

Could you summarize the root causes of the initial destruction of the atmosphere that requires this "repair" work?

In a word - Industry. Most fail to understand that the products we use, wear and live with are made in a manner that dumps CFC's and green houses gasses into the atmosphere. There is no one single causative in this issue. It goes way back to the Industrial Revolution and the use of coal to power steam engines. Since that time we have consumed greater and greater energy resources, dumping the waste where ever we wanted.

What about the reports of sickness after spraying?

There are several causatives for this. Some people are more sensitive to metals, whiles others are sensitive to the polymer chemicals. As stated in a previous email, people will get sick, and some will die. It is estimated that 2 billion worldwide will be affected to some degree by the spraying. Without spraying we have a 90% + chance of becoming extinct as a species with in the next 20 years.

more info and questions and answer at the below link.

www.holmestead.ca...

in my understanding, the shield project went on
to become Project Cloverleaf.

reply to post by CHRLZ


Nice personal attack there, ATS allows this ? Yea , why not ...

You are trying to scare this dude to ever speaking his mind again, this is how you 'folks' operate, shame on you..
' Dare you speak out agianst us ? ' , this rediculing of people is your Only defence against the increasing numbers of people observing this, as he stated : He have been Observing Changes, and you come here trying to stiffle him, nothing more....

You sir, are either one of two things : Knowingly spreading disinfo, or you are very ignorant, which one is it ?
You 'folks' keep asking for proof of this and that and at the same time deny that people are used as Test Subjects all the time, you come on here pretending that Never in human history have any government ever done any wrongdoings to any population Ever ! Sir, you are flat out Wrong.. Why ? Knowingly Igoring Truth or just Ignorant ?

- ' Deny Ignorance' well, seems to have become a sort of a Shield for you folks, ' look at my Avatar, Im super smart, knows it all'.. They Are spraying , you have the Footage, you have the Photos and you have the Lab Reports..So , what is the problem ?? What proof would satisfy you ?

I've never heard a debunker explain how their mythical "persistent contrails" can slowly spread out and obliterate a clear blue sky in an hour or two.

Imagine jet contrails being able to turn a clear sky overcast. That's quite the magical water vapor!