Dreams and Nocturnal Visitations by Uninvited Entities.

I'd just like to share some of my experiences and current theories involving the following concepts: shared dreams, lucid dreams, the collective consciousness, sleep paralysis and OOBE. I'd like to preface this by stating that this is entirely speculative, based on my own curiosities about things whose mundane explanations didn't quite meet my standards.

Am I a dreamer? Hell yes. Am I a blind believer? No, I'm actually quite skeptic. Do I want to believe? Sure. But believe what? I'm sorry; I don't really have a 'belief system', but I have the capacity to maintain a number of plausible 'realities' without buying into one without enough solid info.

That being said, I would like to address the often described feeling and/or imagery of a "presence" that one "wakes up to" in the night. Whether during a bout of sleep paralysis, or even completely in the realm of deep sleep, this is something almost everyone can identify with.

Why are some dreams so much more intense than others? Science has been able to do very little real research on dreams. Are they really just "the mind dumping its daily garbage?" Philosophers and psychologists have always wondered about this. None of them ever learned enough to be "sure" about anything encountered in the dream world.

My recent theory is that possibly every dream we have involves and "out of body experience" - that our mind/soul/spirit (what other words can one use? lol) joins a "channel" and "receives" info. And that more often than we realize, the channel we join are populated by citizens who are actually other dreamers - real people snoozing away just like us.

The different "channels" I've joined seem to have different sets of "rules" governing the setting. I'll try to list some.

One type: lucidity is achievable. You can do anything you can think of, including changing the setting entirely by willing the change. You can fly, and do or say anything to anyone you please.

Another: lucidity is achievable, but you have no control over the setting and there are many laws that can't be broken. For instance no violence is allowed - a physical shield thickens inches away from anyhing you try to attack.

Another: you can't read anything. When you try to, it looks blurry, or you start to feel really sleepy.

Another: you feel really sleepy, and things happen around you that you have no control of. OR: you try to talk to someone and THEY are half asleep. The bit of info you're trying to get from them is delivered with a slurred mumble - you try to get them to repeat it but it's less decipherable each time.

Another: You're lying in your bed, and someone comes into your room and stars rifling through your dresser. Maybe you even recognize them as your roommate, but for some reason you can't wake up to say "hey, GT#O of my underwear drawer you #!"

Another: An acquaintance - or maybe someone you're very close to - is behaving very uncharacteristically; vile and mean, and possibly physically hurting you.

Another: There are cats that have gotten into your room, and are either just laying on your bed, or tromping all over it, which wakes you up. They came in through the window, even though you know there isn't one (or it's closed/locked/painted shut) if you notice them or try to talk to them, they scurry away, (and probably wake up)

Another: You are wandering (floating?) around familiar and/or unrecognizable territory. Maybe you're on two feet, maybe just 'gliding'. If you recognize your surroundings, there is maybe something unfamiliar about them - like carnival rides in the middle of the street or something.

Another: similar to the above, you're in someone's house, or a bank, or somewhere else you don't belong AND YOU ARE SPOTTED. The dream ends immediately.

Another: You're not really dreaming - you're waking up after a good night's sleep. You're conscious of the bed and blanket, you feel kinda 'well rested'. YOU HAVEN'T OPENED YOUR EYES YET. But, for some reason, YOU CAN SEE. You're in a room, yours or one like it - or maybe not. You can look around. But perhaps only as much as your eyeballs can view. If you try to move your head, you lose the connection and actually open your eyes to see - yep - your OWN room.

Another: You are on foot trying to cover a considerable distance. Walking on your feet is giving you problems, so you decide to incorporate your arms into your stride, like a gorilla. And now, you really cook! Or maybe you drop down on all fours like a lizard or other quadruped.

SO. All of the above are experiences I've had. I KNOW many others have had similar. The thing is, these are the dreams that stand out in ways that are hard to describe. I'm willing to accept that my own paranoia and "superstitions" contribute to these dreams, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts - skeptical and/or whimsical.

I believe that "sleep paralysis" is a real biological condition, but that no one actually knows exactly what happens to the "mind" when it happens. I believe that it's a "complication" in the "docking process" between the consciousness and the body. Does that cause "Hallucinations"? You betcha. Is everything encountered during that process "unreal"? NO. Completely "internal"? NO.

Just a dump of the "daily garbage"? NO. Influenced by the "daily garbage" ABSOLUTELY. But then, so is your "soul".

Originally posted by Teratoma
Why are some dreams so much more intense than others?

Simple, that's the difference between REM dreams and non-REM dreams. The REM variety are more intense, the non-REM ones much less so.

Originally posted by Teratoma
One type: lucidity is achievable. You can do anything you can think of, including changing the setting entirely by willing the change. You can fly, and do or say anything to anyone you please.

Another: lucidity is achievable, but you have no control over the setting and there are many laws that can't be broken. For instance no violence is allowed - a physical shield thickens inches away from anyhing you try to attack.

Sometimes you luck out with perfect dream control, other times not so much. This isn't the result of different dream realms, proper control is always available to you once you understand how dreams work and the basics of dream control. See my thread "The Nature of Dream Control" here:

www.dreamviews.com...

That thread will probably provide answers to most of your scenarios.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Another: You're not really dreaming - you're waking up after a good night's sleep. You're conscious of the bed and blanket, you feel kinda 'well rested'. YOU HAVEN'T OPENED YOUR EYES YET. But, for some reason, YOU CAN SEE. You're in a room, yours or one like it - or maybe not. You can look around. But perhaps only as much as your eyeballs can view. If you try to move your head, you lose the connection and actually open your eyes to see - yep - your OWN room.

Not that's an interesting one. It usually happens to me as I'm falling asleep, or at least trying to. At some point I notice I can see through my closed eyelids. But it's not regular vision, it's like seeing through night vision goggles. I noticed my point of visual reference is not from my eyes though, but from a point closer to the mattress. When I open my eyes to check what I was seeing, my real vision is from a slightly different angle, slightly higher than where I was getting my night vision. This is actually more common than you might think. I've found several people online over the years who've experienced this too.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Just a dump of the "daily garbage"? NO. Influenced by the "daily garbage" ABSOLUTELY. But then, so is your "soul".

Not so much influenced by daily garbage, but rather filtered through personal archetypes. Nothing in dreams is literal, but rather a composite of things you are familiar with. WHen you dream of school, the dream school you experience is a composite of all the schools you've ever attended, possibly with some work elements thrown in as well. Dream characters that are strangely familiar seem this way because they are made up of familiar parts from real people you know.

Seriously, check out that thread I linked. It's overdue for a major rewrite, but the basic principles are sound.

Thanks for your reply, I will check it out.

I'd say that most of the dreams I remember happen during a deep REM state. You can't just dismiss their intensity as "normal" ...NO ONE REALLY KNOWS what normal is.

But can we at least come to an agreement on the one scenario that you pointed out: that you seemed to be getting "information" from a place other than your actual eyeballs?

I don't want to say too much without reading your link - I seem to recall being mostly in agreement with your avatar when I've seen it in the past lol.

But more importantly, (in relation to the topic) do you dismiss the notion of "shared dreaming"? What about the thread title... What about my thread title and premise? Are you saying that all of these notions of "others"... Characters, players in the dream are completely extensions/representations of myself, produced entirely from within?

I don't dismiss this - let's discuss it.

Are my 'out of body' experiences - the ones with the loud roar/vibrational buzz at the very core of my being - a result of apnea?

Is the big shadowy figure (who sometimes wears a top hat, sometimes a hooded cloak) a concoction of my own mind, telling me that If I don't wake up and fight for my life right now I'll die in my sleep?

I've often thought I must move to other dimensions/realities in my dreams because
they ARE so VERY detailed and intense....often the subject matter is mundane
(just another day in the OR...or restaurant), many times it's extremely realistic
environmentally but with apocalyptic or fight/flight scenarios...
I've always had incredibly vivid and detailed dreams from the age of 5, a couple were
recurring for several years, some precognitive, some incorporating inventions that
weren't available till at least 5 years later and my persona engaging in behaviors/skills
that I didn't have knowledge of till I researched it later!
Considering how important dreaming...not only sleep, is to health it seems illogical
is the equivalent of mental feces!

Originally posted by Teratoma
But more importantly, (in relation to the topic) do you dismiss the notion of "shared dreaming"? What about the thread title... What about my thread title and premise? Are you saying that all of these notions of "others"... Characters, players in the dream are completely extensions/representations of myself, produced entirely from within?

Everything I cover in that tread is based entirely on my shared dreaming experiences. I was a lucid dreamer for over a dozen years and was never satisfied with the standard explanation on dream control. Then I encountered some people in my dreams who were experts, and I learned a lot from interacting with them.

You can encounter non human entities in dreams, but you cannot rely on their visual representations to identify what they are. Just because something appears to be an angel doesn't mean it is. These things are alien to us, and we can only relate to them in terms of what we understand, so we represent them by using the closest elements we can come up with. Dreams are made of pieces we are familiar with. Trying to represent an alien entity in dreams is like trying to make a lego spaceship out of a medieval lego set. You can do it, but you have to use a tower spire as a nose cone, ect.

The best way to identify elements that aren't created directly from you is to know how your dreams work, and how you create the elements in your dreams. That way you can identify anomalous elements.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Are my 'out of body' experiences - the ones with the loud roar/vibrational buzz at the very core of my being - a result of apnea?

The infamous buzzing is the one dreaming experience I've not had outside of a full fledged dream. But dreams are built around what you have your attention focused on. Usually dreams will form around the last thoughts you had or around the last hypnogogic imagery you were experiencing. But when you fall directly into sleep, your dream setting defaults to the last thing you were aware of, being in your room. I've had many spontaneous OBE like dreams, and they do not differ from regular dreams in any way.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Is the big shadowy figure (who sometimes wears a top hat, sometimes a hooded cloak) a concoction of my own mind, telling me that If I don't wake up and fight for my life right now I'll die in my sleep?

If shadow people were just creations of the mind, then there should be some sort of personalization involved. But all accounts are consistent in description and behavior. Shadow people have resisted my best attempts to control or influence them in any way. They are not dreams, they are very real.

reply to post by The Cusp


First off, thanks again for participating in my thread. I'd say we are mostly in agreement but that you have more experience on the subject - and not to mention also are better at articulating. I look forward to reading that whole thread. I read 3 pages and am very intrigued.

Now my challenge is formulating the same queries I set out to address in this thread in relation to your understanding. Not like you couldn't understand the OP, but it seems like there is both a congruence AND dichotomy in my thoughts VS yours.

For instance do I understand that your belief in the mechanics of 'shared dreaming' is that two (or more) people are physically connected in their dream the same way that we all stand on the same ground and breathe the same air? That my "channel" or what some would call "dream dimension" doesn't exist?

Sometimes you luck out with perfect dream control, other times not so much. This isn't the result of different dream realms...

Why is it then? Do you totally disagree with the multi-channel notion?

This brings up a variation I didn't mention in my OP:

You are "You" but you're not armed with all of the knowledge you actually possess.

Or the more sinister version:

"You" are doing things that you would never actually do. Things you're morally opposed to because of who you actually are.

Don't tell me they are deep dark subconscious fantasies. I'm perfectly fine with THOSE.

No the issue here is more like this: I know about lucid dreams. I've had them. With increasing frequency I'm happy to say. How come it NEVER occurs to me that I'm dreaming in some dreams?

And worse - this actually happened very recently for the first time in a dream. Things got weird and extremely negative and I realized they were too wacky and I had a very conscious realization that not only am I dreaming, but that I've had the same dream at least 3 or 4 times. So just wake up.

Oh. I guess I'm not dreaming then. Well this REALLY sucks then. Plus now I feel stupid. I can't say when this dream actually ended - just that it wasn't when I wanted it to.

Is this a result of my recent gaining of knowledge about the dreamworld? It's like the whole point of this dream was that I wasn't "allowed" to become lucid in any capacity. Did I subconsciously establish that rule? Why would I do that?

PS: Your Lego analogy endeared me to you. You are obviously a fun person. Cheers!

Originally posted by Teratoma
reply to post by The Cusp

 

For instance do I understand that your belief in the mechanics of 'shared dreaming' is that two (or more) people are physically connected in their dream the same way that we all stand on the same ground and breathe the same air? That my "channel" or what some would call "dream dimension" doesn't exist?

Why is it then? Do you totally disagree with the multi-channel notion?

I do completely disagree, although I think all the proficient shared dreamers I know disagree with me. Perhaps it's just a matter of how I approach it. I think making distinctions between realities or realms will only lead to confusion. I prefer to focus on what they all have in common.

An archetype is a series of association to any given concept. Take the concept of ocean, you have sand, waves, beach, fish, whales, on and on. If you created a complete list of association to that one concept, you have your own personal archetype of ocean. If you repeat that process of each of the association, which are archetypes in themselves, and then again for each of those association, on and on until for everything you know, you end up with a densely interconnected neural network. This is the realm we travel in dreams. It determines and limits what we can experience in the dream state.

Each person has a unique network of archetypes. In shared dreaming, people often see different things that are essentially the same on an archetypal level. Some actual examples, one person sees an Wendy's where the other sees a Denny's. Both restaurants. One dreamer asks the other why he's naked, and the guy looks down to see he's wearing underwear only, but is not naked.

If I had to make any distinction between realms, it would be the classic quantum mechanics notion of wave/particle duality. I speculate that dreams are the wave counterpart to the waking world's solid particle realm. These wave forms have been described as probability waveforms, and I feel an archetype is a good description of that. Really it's just two sides of the same coin.

Originally posted by Teratoma
This brings up a variation I didn't mention in my OP:

You are "You" but you're not armed with all of the knowledge you actually possess.

I chalk that one up to state dependent memory. Try remembering details about your personal life from inside a lucid dream. It's as difficult as remembering a dream while awake.

REM dreams are more intense than non-REM ones. Sleeping on your right side yields left brain dreams which are more logical and sequential than right brain dreams which are more abstract. But the core mechanics of how the dreams unfold and how to control them remain the same throughout all of the variations.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Or the more sinister version:

"You" are doing things that you would never actually do. Things you're morally opposed to because of who you actually are.

Don't tell me they are deep dark subconscious fantasies. I'm perfectly fine with THOSE.

We have very few inhibitions in dreams. It's just a fact that overpowers morals.

Originally posted by Teratoma
No the issue here is more like this: I know about lucid dreams. I've had them. With increasing frequency I'm happy to say. How come it NEVER occurs to me that I'm dreaming in some dreams?

It's the autopilot curse. We just have a bad habit of going along with everything without questioning it. Reality checks are actually designed to break up these extended periods of autopilot and question your reality. If you want to get lucid more often, you have to practice being more aware in waking reality. Brush your teeth with your left hand instead of your right, stuff like that will make you stop and think. I think lucidity has an equivalent state in the waking world.

Originally posted by Teratoma
And worse - this actually happened very recently for the first time in a dream. Things got weird and extremely negative and I realized they were too wacky and I had a very conscious realization that not only am I dreaming, but that I've had the same dream at least 3 or 4 times. So just wake up.

I have no way to judge that. On the one hand we make up complete memory sets in dreams all the time. On the other, I've been keeping a dream journal long enough to know I actually do remember past dreams while dreaming, but those dreams are never identical. I have no way to make a call one way or the other without dream journal evidence to back it up.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Is this a result of my recent gaining of knowledge about the dreamworld? It's like the whole point of this dream was that I wasn't "allowed" to become lucid in any capacity. Did I subconsciously establish that rule? Why would I do that?

Point of the dream? Sorry, I don't believe dreams have any meaning at all. Dreams form around what you focus your attention on, so the only meaning to be found is why you focus on the things you do. And that reason is inevitably habit. Not getting lucid is not a rule you made up, it's a bad habit you picked up.

reply to post by The Cusp


I very much appreciate your patience. I feel like I'm slowly grasping some of the points you're making. Others are right along with what I've always sort-of "known". I see much more similarities in our concepts than dualities, and I'm not entirely sure they're mutually exclusive.

"focusing on what they have in common" is definitely my intended approach.

Let me elaborate on one of the things that let me to become interested in this subject. I must preface this with the following: my actions in the dream I'm about to describe had to do with my (mis)understanding of what dreams are.

I remember my first few lucid dreams. I became aware that I was dreaming, so I just decided to "freak out" and start smashing things and hitting people. Only I just couldn't. I'd try to smack someone with all my might and I'd end up barely tapping them. My conscious thoughts at the time were, "hey, this is MY dream, and none of this is REAL, so why don't I just go nuts?" I'm a very mellow, non-violent, non-confrontational person in real life, but I just saw this as kind of like my own virtual world/video game, the denizens within mine to punch. So why couldn't I?

I've since decided that I shouldn't do that. Now what I try to do is fly. But every once in a while I revert back - it's like I've lost progress and my primal reaction is to just # # up when I realize I'm dreaming. But it's not like I'm secretly harboring anger and the desire to hurt anyone.

But ok, here's where my idea clashes with yours. Or maybe not. You believe that more than one of us can interact together in a dream. Perhaps that doesn't need a "channel" to happen in, but it certainly doesn't seem like a 'common' occurrence. Why does it happen at all? (rhetorical of course) but there seems to be a random factor (you've acknowledged it or referred to it as 'luck') that seems to dominate what can happen; including the likelihood of one's becoming lucid.

Perhaps the "channels" I'm hung up on are just some predetermined rules-of-engagement that our shared-dream-avatars agree upon on a level of consciousness that no one ever remembers. "Ok, I'll join your little network, but if Teratoma starts throwing hooks again, we all have to turn on our shields, ok?"

You use the term "state dependent memory" ...what exactly are these states, and exactly how do they affect one's memory (again rhetorical - unless you actually know the answer lol).

Am I at least asking the right questions? Be patient with me - I'll come around.

I also wanted to share a little bit about my motivation for posting this. In Muzzleflash's Top-Hat Man Thread his description of a shadow-being's behavior makes me wonder if certain encounters with them aren't actually encounters with the 'astral' consciousnesses of people traveling 'out-of-body' AND in a dream state.

Originally posted by Teratoma
reply to post by The Cusp

 

I remember my first few lucid dreams. I became aware that I was dreaming, so I just decided to "freak out" and start smashing things and hitting people. Only I just couldn't. I'd try to smack someone with all my might and I'd end up barely tapping them. My conscious thoughts at the time were, "hey, this is MY dream, and none of this is REAL, so why don't I just go nuts?" I'm a very mellow, non-violent, non-confrontational person in real life, but I just saw this as kind of like my own virtual world/video game, the denizens within mine to punch. So why couldn't I?

I have no idea what causes that, but it's a pretty common occurrence. That and the lazy leg or inability to run or walk properly. Happened to me just last week in a non-lucid dream. www.dreamviews.com...

Originally posted by Teratoma
I've since decided that I shouldn't do that. Now what I try to do is fly. But every once in a while I revert back - it's like I've lost progress and my primal reaction is to just # # up when I realize I'm dreaming. But it's not like I'm secretly harboring anger and the desire to hurt anyone.

If you're lucid and know nothing is real, there are no moral consequences to violence in dreams. Smashing stuff is fun. I'd rate that as one of my top lucid abilities.

Originally posted by Teratoma
But ok, here's where my idea clashes with yours. Or maybe not. You believe that more than one of us can interact together in a dream. Perhaps that doesn't need a "channel" to happen in, but it certainly doesn't seem like a 'common' occurrence. Why does it happen at all? (rhetorical of course) but there seems to be a random factor (you've acknowledged it or referred to it as 'luck') that seems to dominate what can happen; including the likelihood of one's becoming lucid.

First of all, I never said lucidity has to do with luck. It's a quality of awareness, that and stopping to question your reality, breaking the cycle of autopilot. Dreaming is all about what you focus your awareness on. I can only assume shared dreaming occurs when one or more people are focused on the same things. Twins happen to have a higher number of shared dreams than regular people. My theory is that since twins tend to share more waking experiences, they have more common ground in which to meet up in dreams.

There is something called "Dream Meshing" that occurs when a group of people begin reading and commenting in each other's dream journals. They begin to dream of the same things, and in many cases it's not from something they've read influencing their dreams. I think it because their awareness begins to converge as the group grows closer.

You can read several shared dreaming accounts here;
www.dreamviews.com...

Originally posted by Teratoma
You use the term "state dependent memory" ...what exactly are these states, and exactly how do they affect one's memory (again rhetorical - unless you actually know the answer lol).

Google that term to find a better explanation than I could provide. Here's the first link I came across looking it up.
library.thinkquest.org...

Originally posted by Teratoma
Am I at least asking the right questions? Be patient with me - I'll come around.

No worries. But I don't exactly know how shared dreaming takes place. My area of expertise is dream control and how that applies to a shared dreaming environment, what I loosely term Dream Combat.

Sorry about the delay. I've been "experimenting", so to speak. I wanted to apply the things The Cusp has shared here in dreams that I've had. The concept has weighed considerably on my day-to-day (waking) thoughts as well, so this is what I have to report:

I had several "normal" dreams - in which I didn't become lucid or take control in any way. The "Attention Theorem" (a nickname for The Cusp's ideas I made up just now) didn't come into play during these dreams either.

This brings up a question I mentioned before: why don't I possess all of my knowledge in certain dreams? It's related to 'why do I sometimes do things in dreams I would never actually do?'

There seems to be a "set of rules" that I don't remember ever discussing or agreeing upon for certain dreams - it's like I consciously decided to create a scenario in which certain mental resources or memories would not be available to me - just to see what would happen - then blocked all memory of that decision.

OR - did someone else make those rules?

I did have one "lucid" dream, where my moment of realization and level of lucidity was *strictly* that "the elements I'm dealing with now only exist if I pay attention to them". I never took complete control - or even came to full realization that I was dreaming, and it wasn't long before I woke up.

At this point I want to apologize to anyone clicking on this thread and finding the title misleading, and sort of redirect the discussion back towards the topic.

I was basically wanting to address the notion of shared dreams and whether or not they were always "consensual". On intentional.

In Muzzleflash's Top Hat Man thread, I pose the idea that certain shadow-beings might be astral representations of other dreamers.

In shared dreams, can you control your appearance? If you're NOT PAYING ATTENTION to your own appearance, does it affect the way other dreamers' perceive you?

I have had two recent "sleep paralysis" episodes. Both times I raised up in my bed and saw a single giant insect/crustacean creature crawling on my bookshelf (not humanoid - but like 7 inches long). Later I came to the conclusion that I probably hadn't raised up at all, that I was sleeping and dreaming. During those "dreams" though, I felt fatigue, like I wasn't awake but wanted to be. My eyes were closed or barely open and I couldn't focus on anything - but the big bugs were very clear and to back up the "Attention Theorem", the longer I stared at them, the more in-focus and real they looked.

I've had other dreams that felt like this - in which I was having some kind of confrontation with people I knew, only it wasn't really them - they often segue into a 'sleep-paralysis' episode in my room, with the person going through my belongings while I am "paralyzed" and unable to wake up.

What is this "presence" that so many people associate with sleep paralysis? If everyone who mentioned it described it as sitting on them or holding them down, it would make more sense - but sometimes it doesn't even touch you.

Originally posted by TeratomaI had several "normal" dreams - in which I didn't become lucid or take control in any way. The "Attention Theorem" (a nickname for The Cusp's ideas I made up just now) didn't come into play during these dreams either.

That's just because you're not used to noticing how you attention is working. You'll learn to recognize it eventually. Start with the two extremes. Too much attention is easy. Watch for when nasty things grab your attention, and see how they grow out of control. Like if you see a bunch of squirmy insects in a dream, they multiply fast once they hook your attention.

And at the other end there is not enough attention. Lucid time is precious, and I don't have time to deal with annoying dream characters, so the fastest thing to do is ignore them into oblivion. But if you don't have the opportunity to try that, just look at pain. You only feel pain in dreams when stop to focus on it, Most times, you're so focused on trying to avoid whatever caused the injuries that you feel nothing.

Originally posted by TeratomaThis brings up a question I mentioned before: why don't I possess all of my knowledge in certain dreams? It's related to 'why do I sometimes do things in dreams I would never actually do?'

Again I have to say it's state dependent memory. Being in a different state of mind encodes memories differently. Think of it like a different format. Your waking memories are encoded in .jpg format and your dreaming memories are encoded in .gif format. In order to access those memories, you need to be using the right program, or the right frame of mind.

As for you dream behavior, again I have to say fewer inhibitions, plus on some level we know there are no consequences. So I guess it comes down to why you don't do those things in waking life. If the only reason you don't kill someone is because you're afraid of the consequences, then if those consequences were to disappear, you are for all intents and purposes a murderer.

Originally posted by Teratoma
There seems to be a "set of rules" that I don't remember ever discussing or agreeing upon for certain dreams - it's like I consciously decided to create a scenario in which certain mental resources or memories would not be available to me - just to see what would happen - then blocked all memory of that decision.

OR - did someone else make those rules?

You made those rules unintentionally through your day to day experiences. They're just archetypal structures. Just look at the most simple ones, like when you play the same video game for hours on end. The game has rule structures, and the repetition of playing it reinforces them in your mind, You dreams will likely work within those structures, but only because you've focused on them so long they are your current active structure. You can easily change them by thinking of another game in the dream, or any other archetypal rule set you can think of.

Originally posted by Teratoma
I did have one "lucid" dream, where my moment of realization and level of lucidity was *strictly* that "the elements I'm dealing with now only exist if I pay attention to them". I never took complete control - or even came to full realization that I was dreaming, and it wasn't long before I woke up.

The thing about dream control is that you are alwaysin complete control. The trick is just to realize it. It's not something you really need to learn, it's something you're doing all the time. You just need to become aware of what you're doing and how it works.

Originally posted by Teratoma
I was basically wanting to address the notion of shared dreams and whether or not they were always "consensual". On intentional.

The don't need to be consensual. A lot of people will say you need permission to share dreams with someone, but that a load of astral bull. You just need to be capable of finding someone, and there is no real set method to do that. Really it's what works for you. Some people like to use portals, some people use doors, others just walk around looking.

From what I've seen, most shared dreams are unintentional. It just happens and you don't even need to be lucid. Which can be annoying, because when you meet someone that isn't lucid while you are, they behave as if what's happening around them is real. And you can't just tell someone they're dreaming and make them lucid. Lucidity is something you have to earn yourself. You can try to tell them, but most of the time it doesn't sink in.

Originally posted by Teratoma
In shared dreams, can you control your appearance? If you're NOT PAYING ATTENTION to your own appearance, does it affect the way other dreamers' perceive you?

You can adopt archetypes, general roles, but that doesn't guarantee how the other person will see you. Ask any two people to draw a zombie, and you will end up with two entirely different pictures. That's how shared dreaming works. It's actually kind of funny reading about two shared dreamers discussing their appearance.

Most of the shared dreamers I know tend to default to a certain persona, like a vampire or a werewolf, but you can change at any time.

Originally posted by Teratoma
I have had two recent "sleep paralysis" episodes. Both times I raised up in my bed and saw a single giant insect/crustacean creature crawling on my bookshelf (not humanoid - but like 7 inches long). Later I came to the conclusion that I probably hadn't raised up at all, that I was sleeping and dreaming. During those "dreams" though, I felt fatigue, like I wasn't awake but wanted to be. My eyes were closed or barely open and I couldn't focus on anything - but the big bugs were very clear and to back up the "Attention Theorem", the longer I stared at them, the more in-focus and real they looked.

Crustaceans are abnormally common during sleep paralysis. I've never seen any myself, so I don't really know what to make of it.

Originally posted by Teratoma
What is this "presence" that so many people associate with sleep paralysis? If everyone who mentioned it described it as sitting on them or holding them down, it would make more sense - but sometimes it doesn't even touch you.

I call it "desperate rationalization". Your mind needs to come up with a logical explanation to explain the situation, no matter how far fetched. The situation is just so far removed from the ordinary, supernatural explanations often seem like the only ones available.

First time I had sleep paralysis, I thought it was aliens coming to abduct me. A girl I know thought someone had drugged her and was coming to rape her. No matter what explanation your mind settles on, it's gotta be something pretty serious to stop you from moving like that.

To quote the great and all-knowing Kuato:

"You are what you do. A man is defined by his actions, not his memory."

I sort of have a problem with the above statement, but it sounds like what The Cusp is saying. I mean, are we not the SUM of our experience? The reason I'm not a murderer is not only because I'm afraid of what will happen to me if I kill someone. It's because I've learned enough about life through my humble (and at times not-so-humble) time in this body to respect it.


So, state-dependent memory is one thing, but I think you were taking my question too literally. In some instances I'm wondering why very specific memories - for example, the insights you're sharing on this thread - don't make it into many of my dreams. But on the wide end of this - I'm saying that I'm a categorically different "version" of myself in certain dreams. Like whole chapters of who I am have been deliberately blocked. It's not always a negative extreme like murder and destruction, sometimes I'm somehow fluent in some language - or playing this bizarre Dr. Seuss kind of stringed instrument with virtuosic proficiency.

Anyway I dreamed the other night that I was being chased by someone and ended up overpowering him with the help of two friends. While we were debilitating over what to do with him (he was folded up like a pretzel in a shopping cart, no longer able to cause trouble) I broke a pool cue over my knee and used one of the halves to stake the guy through the neck like a vampire. The rest of the dream was me trying to figure out if I should flee the country or just try to carry on as usual. I had conscious thoughts of what I would tell the cops etc.

And I know I wouldn't have dreamed any of it if it wasn't for this thread.

PAIN:

pain. You only feel pain in dreams when stop to focus on it, Most times, you're so focused on trying to avoid whatever caused the injuries that you feel nothing.

Interesting you bring this up. In many of my sleep-paralysis related dreams, I am being pinched really hard (sometimes in places too personal to mention) or feeling intense pressure as if being poked in nerves along my spine, by various friends and acquaintances of mine.

I call it "desperate rationalization". Your mind needs to come up with a logical explanation to explain the situation, no matter how far fetched. The situation is just so far removed from the ordinary, supernatural explanations often seem like the only ones available.

This just doesn't quite explain it for me. I've experienced it too many times in which the "manifestation" I'm referring to has nothing to do with my feelings of 'restraint' or fatigue. Most of the time, the "visitors" (yay! the stars of the thread title) I'm referring to are in no way an "explanation" or "rationalization" of why I feel like I do, they only serve to complicate the situation.

Crustaceans are abnormally common during sleep paralysis. I've never seen any myself, so I don't really know what to make of it.

It's statements like this that (if true) rationalize my interest in this topic in the eyes of "science" ...The notion that crustaceans must be some kind of cultural archetype among certain people, or that it must stem from common childhood experiences are logical, but as yet unproven. As I mentioned before, they use the same "rationalization" for the "common hallucination" of alien abduction.

I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a 'hallucination' based on instinctual memory, which is another theory...

But for the sake of the tread - could these bugs be interdimensional baddies of some kind? Are they another form the "shadow people" can assume if they think you're really out of it and not gonna wake up?

Are all of them just people who have become really adept at finding other dreamers, getting off on pretending to be my roommate rifling through my belongings?

Do people do that?

Do you believe people can travel out-of-body in a dream without knowing it? Can it happen while they're 'out-of-body' but also still in a dream state?

If so, can they be seen? What if they think they're a bundle of lumber rolling around in the back of a truck? What will they look like to others?

I go along with most of what you're saying but I'm still not convinced that our ideas are mutually exclusive. I still suspect there's some sort of 'loading zone' between our conscious, waking state and the various levels of 'dream states' we enter. A 'place' in which rules and dynamics are shared and discussed, and "permissions" to join are given. This would be the Astral Baloney or whatever you dismissed it as, but I think of it as similar to the 'place' some people believe we go "between lives" during the reincarnation process.

Why shouldn't our "pure" consciousnesses be able to interact with one another on such a level?

I'm just coming to terms with notions I've had a growing suspicion of for a long time - that dreams are not an ENTIRELY internal experience of the mind - that some of the experience is sometimes shared with others and can involve input from 'outer' sources. I think that if we can agree on this then the rest of what we're discussing is valid speculation.

Originally posted by Teratoma
To quote the great and all-knowing Kuato:

"You are what you do. A man is defined by his actions, not his memory."

I sort of have a problem with the above statement, but it sounds like what The Cusp is saying. I mean, are we not the SUM of our experience? The reason I'm not a murderer is not only because I'm afraid of what will happen to me if I kill someone. It's because I've learned enough about life through my humble (and at times not-so-humble) time in this body to respect it.


So, state-dependent memory is one thing, but I think you were taking my question too literally. In some instances I'm wondering why very specific memories - for example, the insights you're sharing on this thread - don't make it into many of my dreams. But on the wide end of this - I'm saying that I'm a categorically different "version" of myself in certain dreams. Like whole chapters of who I am have been deliberately blocked. It's not always a negative extreme like murder and destruction, sometimes I'm somehow fluent in some language - or playing this bizarre Dr. Seuss kind of stringed instrument with virtuosic proficiency.

That's kind of hard for me to relate to. When I am myself in dreams, I can always identify with my behavior. I know it's me, something I would do. The only time my behavior varies is when I'm playing the role of other characters in the dream. Sometimes I jump around like that, playing other people.

Is you odd behavior in any way related to a specific archetypal role? Like you're acting out a character in a play?

Originally posted by Teratoma

Crustaceans are abnormally common during sleep paralysis. I've never seen any myself, so I don't really know what to make of it.

It's statements like this that (if true) rationalize my interest in this topic in the eyes of "science" ...The notion that crustaceans must be some kind of cultural archetype among certain people, or that it must stem from common childhood experiences are logical, but as yet unproven. As I mentioned before, they use the same "rationalization" for the "common hallucination" of alien abduction.

I'd be more inclined to believe that it was a 'hallucination' based on instinctual memory, which is another theory...

I don't think that's the case at all. That's Jung's take on things, but I've seen no evidence of archetypes existing outside the individual in a group mind. Sure there are archetypes that are common between people, but I view that as the overlap that lets us interact with each other.

Plus I just don't see the association between sleep or sleep paralysis and crustaceans.

Originally posted by Teratoma
But for the sake of the tread - could these bugs be interdimensional baddies of some kind? Are they another form the "shadow people" can assume if they think you're really out of it and not gonna wake up?

I'm inclined to think they are some sort of interdimensional entities. Besides crustaceans, spiders are the next most common thing seen, followed by insects. You can see how similar all three of those creature types are on an archetypal level. That leads me to believe that we are trying to interpret something that alien to us that has certain qualities of those creatures, which is why we see them as such. But that doesn't mean that they actually are crustaceans or spiders, those are just the closest things we have available to compare them to.

I'm inclined to think they exist along side us in a multiverse or parallel dimension. They are always there, but that semi sleep state somehow allows us to see them. Not being able to see them all the time may just be a learned behavior. It would be pretty disturbing and hard to function when you see creepy crawly things everywhere.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Are all of them just people who have become really adept at finding other dreamers, getting off on pretending to be my roommate rifling through my belongings?

Do people do that?

Yes and no. I have a hard time believing anyone who becomes skilled enough to enter people's dreams at will just to mess with them. When I encountered a pair of guys who entered my dreams, at first it seemed like they were just messing with me. Attacking, stalking, torturing, they really let me have it. But in retrospect, I think they were trying to teach me. Either way, I certainly learned a lot from those encounters.

Originally posted by Teratoma
Do you believe people can travel out-of-body in a dream without knowing it? Can it happen while they're 'out-of-body' but also still in a dream state?

You're asking the wrong guy, I think dreaming, waking and astral are all the same thing. I've had lots of so called OBE experiences. Some quite spontaneous, other where my dream body was had disconnected from my real one and I had to fight to get it fully free. But from experimenting in that state, I had to conclude that is was merely a dream. Mainly from the fact that dream control works exactly the same when you leave your body.

Originally posted by Teratoma
If so, can they be seen? What if they think they're a bundle of lumber rolling around in the back of a truck? What will they look like to others?

Seen by people in dreams? Sure. There is one guy that whenever we run into each other in dreams, he always attacks me. So in one encounter I turned into a sky scraper. Try punching that!

Seen by people in the waking word? Possibly. I'm going to have to try and experiment with that sometime.

Originally posted by Teratoma
I go along with most of what you're saying but I'm still not convinced that our ideas are mutually exclusive. I still suspect there's some sort of 'loading zone' between our conscious, waking state and the various levels of 'dream states' we enter. A 'place' in which rules and dynamics are shared and discussed, and "permissions" to join are given. This would be the Astral Baloney or whatever you dismissed it as, but I think of it as similar to the 'place' some people believe we go "between lives" during the reincarnation process.

Why shouldn't our "pure" consciousnesses be able to interact with one another on such a level?

I'm just coming to terms with notions I've had a growing suspicion of for a long time - that dreams are not an ENTIRELY internal experience of the mind - that some of the experience is sometimes shared with others and can involve input from 'outer' sources. I think that if we can agree on this then the rest of what we're discussing is valid speculation.

Most dreams are entirely internal, but some do have outside influences. I just don't think there is a stable realm where those interactions take place. Each dreamer experiences their own individual dream, yet it can still be a shared dream.

It's a difficult thing to grasp. Try reading some shared dream accounts where there are both versions of the dream to get a better understanding. You can find plenty of them here:
www.dreamviews.com...

But basically, someone who was mauled by and terrified of dogs is not going to see the same dog as an animal lover, in dreams or in real life.

There is a lot here to read that I haven't read yet but in the time I have left before I have to get dinner on the table I wanted to say that at least one instance in my life in which I dreamed I was someplace and seen and woke up, I was in fact SEEN by a witness who then phoned me to make sure I wasn't dead and to make sure they hadn't seen a ghost. The witness reported my actions and facial expressions which corresponded precisely with what I recall doing in my dream and my facial expression matched up to the inexplicable feeling of anger that overtook me as I was dreaming. It was midafternoon and I'd been napping so I was seen in broad daylight by the witness. I was semi transparent. That's all for now. Make of it what you will. I'm befuddled. I have heard of people saying they go out of their body but I was under the impression they were invisible. Why did I get to be a ghost for a while?

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


I posted something about this too. The only thing your story has over mine is that you have someone to corroborate it. It reminded me of mine, I was invisible though. I interpreted it to be like I was a ghost. If you want to see, the link is here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

This topic fascinates me. The Cusp posted a link to a site that I found well worth joining and reading, that dreamviews.com one.

I can't say that I had any nightly visitors, but I have had disembodied voices in my room. They were a constant presence for about two weeks. Right before I could drift off into the early stages of sleep, that's when they seemed the most clear, as if they were standing next to me bed and leaning into my ear. None of the things they said made any sense, they seemed more like they were attempting to help me with an unknown issue I had no idea about.

Originally posted by DrLovecraft
I can't say that I had any nightly visitors, but I have had disembodied voices in my room. They were a constant presence for about two weeks. Right before I could drift off into the early stages of sleep, that's when they seemed the most clear, as if they were standing next to me bed and leaning into my ear. None of the things they said made any sense, they seemed more like they were attempting to help me with an unknown issue I had no idea about.

That's just hypnogogic hallucinations, very common. Most people just see strange imagery, although for some it's strictly auditory. If you're ever aware of that happening, it puts you in a good position for the classic OBE scenario. Just try to roll out of your body. Start with your legs and arms, the head and torso tend to be trickier to separate. Although I'm of the opinion that is still a dream. Rather than an OBE, you'd be entering directly into a lucid dream. They call that WILDing, wake induced lucid dreaming.

Originally posted by Ellie Sagan
reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain

 

I posted something about this too. The only thing your story has over mine is that you have someone to corroborate it. It reminded me of mine, I was invisible though. I interpreted it to be like I was a ghost. If you want to see, the link is here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

This topic fascinates me. The Cusp posted a link to a site that I found well worth joining and reading, that dreamviews.com one.

edit on 27-10-2010 by Ellie Sagan because: (no reason given)

I read you link, and that sounds like a normal dream to me, sorry to disappoint.

Originally posted by SheeplFlavoredAgain
There is a lot here to read that I haven't read yet but in the time I have left before I have to get dinner on the table I wanted to say that at least one instance in my life in which I dreamed I was someplace and seen and woke up, I was in fact SEEN by a witness who then phoned me to make sure I wasn't dead and to make sure they hadn't seen a ghost. The witness reported my actions and facial expressions which corresponded precisely with what I recall doing in my dream and my facial expression matched up to the inexplicable feeling of anger that overtook me as I was dreaming. It was midafternoon and I'd been napping so I was seen in broad daylight by the witness. I was semi transparent. That's all for now. Make of it what you will. I'm befuddled. I have heard of people saying they go out of their body but I was under the impression they were invisible. Why did I get to be a ghost for a while?

Now that's very interesting. I'm going to have to see if I can get some of my dreaming peers to attempt this.

What's funny is that if you were going along with that dream in a non lucid manner, reacting to it, then your behavior could have been pretty strange to the person observing.

By the way, do you happen to know if the area you were dreaming of matched your witness's real world location? Or were you dreaming of someplace different but he saw you in his location anyways? That's a rather important detail I'm curious about.

reply to post by The Cusp


I was in the midst of natural sleep falling I believe into the Alpha state. My body felt heavy(perhaps partial paralysis) After 3 night nights of this happening, I think I may have missed out on prime OBE time. I haven't been able to recreate the sensation but once since these encounters occurred.