Revelation; The Lamb and the scroll

I want to offer some thoughts on Revelation ch5, which describes a new event in Eternity.

In the previous chapter, John was taken up to heaven, and the scene he found there was full of unceasing praise.
But now something happens in heaven; there is a scroll to be opened.

In connection with that event, I'm going to be asking the question; why must the Lamb open the scroll?

The scroll belongs to "the one seated on the throne", who's holding it in his hand.
It's clearly full of detailed information, written on both sides.
But the scroll has been sealed- with seven seals, which means that God placed them there himself.
And the annnouncement is made that somebody must be found to open it.

This brings up a preliminary question; what is meant by "the opening of the scroll"?
The explanation comes in the next chapter, where we see it happening.
The seals are broken one by one.
And each time a seal is broken, something happens.
In the case of the first four seals, what happens is that one of the four "living creatures" from ch4 summons out one of the "four horsemen", and they begin roaming across the world.
The implication is that the detailed scroll doesn't contain the description of these events.
It contains the events themselves.
Each time a seal is broken, the scroll can be unrolled a little further.
Each time the scroll is unrolled a little further, one more event is "released" into the world.

I think we have to imagine that the seals were fixed on to the scroll, stage by stage, as the scroll was being rolled up.
The key point would be the location of the seal.
The wax would have to be applied over the edge of the parchment, holding the rolled portion together like a paperclip.
Because that would be the purpose of the seal, to prevent the scroll from being unrolled beyond that point.
Then a further section would be rolled, another seal would be applied, and so on, until the final seal held the complete roll together.
Then the breaking of the seals (in reverse order) would give the effect just described. Each broken seal would give access to the next section of the scroll, and only the next section, until the unrolling was complete.

But none of these things can happen if the seals cannot be broken.
When the first announcement was made, it seemed that nobody could be found, either "in heaven or on earth or under the earth". Not in the created universe, then
John then wept bitterly

But why does it matter?
Why must the scroll be opened at all?
The immediate answer relates to John's concern about the persecuted state of the church, implied in the first chapter.
The events of ch6, locked up in the scroll, are to be God's response to that, the expression of his wrath against the persecutors.
[NB The 4 Horsemen- Why?]

But that's only the start.
The breaking of the seven seals leads to the seventh seal.
The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets.
The sounding of the seven trumpets leads to the seventh trumpet.
The seventh trumpet contains the seven vials.
The pouring of the seven vials leads to the seventh vial.
And the seventh vial opens up the events which destroy the power of evil and bring forward the arrival of the new Jerusalem.
Anything which obstructs this outcome is a good cause for weeping.

One of the elders then tells John that the problem has been solved.
"The lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David" has conquered.
Obviously this points us towards Jesus.
We find him standing among the elders, the representatives of his people.
But he doesn't appear in the form of a lion.
Nor does he appear in the form of "one like a son of man", as he appeared in the first chapter.
Instead he appears in the form of a Lamb.
Evidently alive, but "standing as though it had been slain".
Risen from the dead, then.
We can see that the Lamb holds "the power that belongs to God"- that's the meaning of the seven horns.
We can see that the Lamb holds "the Spirit that belongs to God" (ie the Holy Spirit)- that's the meaning of "the seven eyes, which are the seven spirits".
This is the Lamb who is able to go to "the one who sits upon the throne" and take the scroll from him.

How can the Lamb do what nobody else can do?
The elders and the living creatures say that he is "worthy"- AXIOS.
The root of this word carries the sense, amongst other things, that something "has weight".
It can be translated as "meet" or "befitting".
This is not just about power, but about moral authority.

They say that he's worthy because he died, and because his death ransomed men for God.
We know this from John's gospel- "The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world".
But how does that give him the power to break the seals and open the scroll?
The answer must be that "the sin of the world" is the reason why the seals are there.
In which case, victory over sin would give him the power to break them.
The two things must go together, bcause the final outcome of opening the scroll is renewed access to Life-
And we know from the story of Eden that sin was the obstruction to Life.
When the Lamb has overcome sin, therefore, he is able to break that obstruction (symbolised by the sealing of the scroll) and set these events in motion.
This includes, of course, the destruction of the power of the Beast.
Since if the Lamb can overcome sin-and-death, which is the ultimate enemy of the human race, dealing with merely human persecutors becomes a comparatively trivial matter.

The rest of the chapter, therefore, is filled with his praise.
"the prayers of the saints" are offered, relating to what he is about to do.
The living creatures and the elders fall down in front of him.
They are joined by "many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands".
These are then joined by "every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea".
In short, there's an explosion of joy and praise beginning around the throne and spreading out to fill the totality of the universe.
Even the British are obliged to admit that they're feeling rather chuffed.
So it is the Atonement itself which is the real "new event" in the history of Eternity.
The opening of the scroll is simply the side-effect.

To sum up.
My opening question was deliberately ambiguous, and could be read in two different ways;
"Why must the scroll be opened at all?"
Because the opening of the scroll sets in motion the fulfilment of the promise of Life.
"Why must the Lamb be the one who opens it?"
Because the promise of Life could only be fulfilled by his death and resurrection.
The message of this chapter is that the Atonement is the real driving force of the events of Revelation.
Which means that Revelation cannot be separated from the structure of Christian teaching.


There's a lot to be gained from reading this chapter in conjunction with;
Ch1; "Fear not" and
Ch4; "In the presence of God"
Because these three chapters between them are the theological heart of the book.

Then the explanatory ch12 sets out the sequence of cause-and-effect which leads from the Atonement to the Beast's hostility to the people of God;
The woman in heaven
Satan fell from heaven
On eagles' wings
War on the saints
All through the rest of Revelation we can read about what happens.
But these chapters just quoted are the key to understanding why it's happening.

..

reply to post by DISRAELI


Just to add:

This scroll has been called the title deed to planet Earth. Scrolls normally had writing on one side only, but in a few cases the Lord writes on both sides. When He does it indicates that there’s a judgment coming. The reason John wept so bitterly is because he knew what was at stake here. Only someone who could redeem Planet Earth and return it to its rightful owner would be able to open the scroll, and no one could be found. Not in Heaven, not on Earth, not under the Earth. Without a qualified redeemer Earth would be lost for all eternity.

(Rev. 5:5-6) There is someone worthy to open the scroll, after all! The fact that the word Lamb is capitalized here means that this is The Lamb of God from John 1:29. He’s also the Lion of Judah from Genesis 49:9-10 and the Root of David from Isaiah 11:1-3. Since John describes Him as a Lamb looking as if it had been slain, we know He’s still in human form, and still bears the scars of His crucifixion. This Lamb is the giver of the Holy Spirit, confirming that it’s the Lord who has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals because He redeemed the planet at the same time He was saving us. (Romans 8:19-21)

Loved your post just loved it! Just wanted to add while I had the chance before this post gets attacked.

Originally posted by dthwraith Scrolls normally had writing on one side only, but in a few cases the Lord writes on both sides. When He does it indicates that there’s a judgment coming.

Yes, that's the case with Ezekiel's scroll, which is the other big scroll "written on both sides".
But of course Ezekiel's scroll gets its main reprise in ch10, where there's a bigger emphasis on judgement.
Thank you for those comments.

"Why must the Lamb be the one who opens it?"

Because it takes Royalty to open a seal place on a document by Royalty... to me, it was obvious that Jesus has the blood of his Father.. and there NO one in heaven or earth that has that DNA.. ) interesting isn't .. think about that for awhile )

Star & Flag for you my friend..
reply to post by DISRAELI

reply to post by Komodo

Yes, that too, of course. Certainly it would hardly be possible for anyone else to go to the throne and collect it.
Evidently he needs to die as well, as the elders say (although the death of nobody else would be sufficient).
Thank you for those comments.

What a beautiful post .All your posts are great .Too bad some will never know the love of redemption and atonment ,,,like all of creation groans with pain awating that final seal opened .

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
,like all of creation groans with pain awating that final seal opened .

Yes, thank you for mentioning that reference from Romans ch8 vvv19-21.
It was in the early drafts, and got left out somehow in the final write-up.
We can see the praise at the end of the chapter as creation rejoicing at the anticipation of redemption.

There is one aspect of the scene which I did not comment on.
When the elders fall down in front of the Lamb, at the end of the chapter, each of them is holding a harp.
They are also holding golden cups full of incense.
Presumably one item in each hand.
If they are falling down in front of the Lamb without spilling any of the incense, this is quite an impressive feat of balance.

So, how long was the scroll?
because the scroll represents the time-line of the religious drama of 'G0D -in 3 persons' with humanity.

the Lamb who according to scripture was the first & only person to attempt to become the sacrificial Lamb
[ie when Jesus got Baptized he took on the 'mantle', & when he overcame the temptations he (Jesus) actually became the first candidate to become the role of the Lamb/ the Annointed ->(Christ)...but actually he did not fufill the 'role' of Messiah, at least to the religious authority in Jerusalem at the time.

The role of 'Lamb' was specifically a NewTestament personnification, a Messiah was a OldTestament promise...
the 'Lamb' is a Poetic Spiritualization device, given great weight in the writings of the cave dwelling St John of Patmos some 70+ years later at the first inklings of the 'Revelation' compilation of writings, all attributed to John the relevator


thanks for posting

reply to post by dthwraith


Please help me to understand how Earth could be lost? Is God not in full command of creation or does Satan have more power than the Bible eludes too? Why would John or anyone weep or worry over Life if Gods will is all?

Could God in fact lose to Satan? Is it possible for Jesus to have failed? For all of this to unfold as told it implies that God lost or gave up control of Earth because of Sin? Does sin have power over Gods will?

Why would God who is loving will such things to happen in this way fully knowing that it will cause pain and anguish to humanity? Does our creator gain something from our sufferage or does he lack the power to just make things happen the way he wills it?

Is there really a war for our souls?? If so why? Does the Bible help us to understand this or we just supposed to ignore the implications?

Originally posted by Xeven
Please help me to understand how Earth could be lost? Is God not in full command of creation or does Satan have more power than the Bible eludes too? Why would John or anyone weep or worry over Life if Gods will is all?

I think the lesson of Revelation is meant to be that God is indeed in final control, which is why Satan is shown as losing out in the end. John's weeping is making the point that the issue is important. Nobody else in the scene is weeping, because they know how the story is going to end.

it implies that God lost or gave up control of Earth because of Sin? Does sin have power over Gods will?

This is where we come up against the Holiness of God, which I define informally as God's rejection of what is not-God. Sin is not-God, and therefore it's going to be rejected by him. So the big issue of the Bible is about "rescuing" what he wants to keep from being connected with it, disentangling them.
I don't have any answer, and neither does anybody else, on why it has to be done this way rather than some other way, so I won't attempt to read God's mind on that point.

With the thoughts and scares of the Galactic Wave Theories and the knowledge that our Solar System has a highly magnetized Interstellar Cloud bearing down on us, one can see this as means to an end.

In those threads, speaking about this "up-and-coming event", it is speculated that this "wave" of gamma or energy will sweep over us all.

2012 Equation Solved ATS Thread

So, given these more "scientific" thoughts (with the esoteric nature of Man), the Scroll could mean our DNA strands, and as each one unfolds a Seal is broken, a Seal which has prevented those genes from becoming active. These can open Man to our deepest Realities as a Whole. Then as all the Seals are broken the "unfolding" of our Reality can take place.

According to the above Thread's link this would enable man to step-out or phase-out of this Dimension as a means to save ourselves. I would think that if our "Blood" is not the same as our creator (our Lords), then we may simply die without experiencing a thing. This certainly would account for interbred elites! This could pose a problem for those who are of interracial backgrounds.

Massive Solar Storm to Hit Earth ATS Thread

Just rambling thoughts!

Think about the 4 Horseman as representing us as Races!

The White Horse--represents "conquering and to conquer". Yup that is a white person for you!

The Red Horse--represents "slaughter" or "butcher". Yup that is what the white person did to the red person!

The Black Horse--represents "famine". Yes, Africans have always weighed their water and food because it is so minimal. No one quite knows famine like those experienced by Africans, on any Continent.

The Pale Horse--represents "pestilence" and "death". It is described as pale yellow-green or that color of a dead body. Jaundice, thin, and emaciated. Yes, China, as with all Asians, this description seems very accurate, Asians are also know to use Chlorophyll in an attempt to ward off the bodily smells often associated with "Death".

After the Horsemen the 5th Seal is opened and the martyrs are revealed. Within us resides all those who died in the name of Christ or our Lord. Within some of us rather! The Saints are under the alters and they await their own resurrection because no one is in Heaven yet! We are the Alters! Well, some of us! No one has ever really died on Earth on the level of the Soul, and we have lived over and over and over as we work on ourselves. (sadly reincarnation was removed from the Bible).

The 6th Seal is likely the receiving of our Galactic Overbearing Gamma Burst that will blast our Sun and blast the Earth! The Little Apocalypse! It is described as a time when people will hide in caves and underground!

The 7th Seal are the Trumpets which sound for those who are able to Vibrate to a higher Frequency, thus enabling them to overcome the onslaught of our Galaxy! Sound is Movement even on levels that we cannot see!

Originally posted by Greensage
(sadly reincarnation was removed from the Bible).

Reincarnation was never in the Bible at any stage.
You would find it difficult to identify any passage or context where reincarnation would have been discussed.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Greensage
(sadly reincarnation was removed from the Bible).

Reincarnation was never in the Bible at any stage.
You would find it difficult to identify any passage or context where reincarnation would have been discussed.

Sorry, if it isn't in there then it was removed! Reincarnation is no more a fable than half of what you propose, and those who can prove it have proved it and legitimized it, it is only some folks don't believe in it. I am pretty certain a majority do, and they represent a diverse and far-reaching population upon the Planet.

Here is the ATS version: Pro and Con alike seemed to have valid points, but I still know within me that I have resided here many times over. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Back to my thoughts:

I was thinking about the Red Horse, and not only the Native's plight by the White man, but also it describes the other Red people who slaughtered by the thousands in the name of their Lord, the Aztec!

Originally posted by Greensage
Sorry, if it isn't in there then it was removed! Reincarnation is no more a fable than half of what you propose, and those who can prove it have proved it and legitimized it, it is only some folks don't believe in it. I am pretty certain a majority do, and they represent a diverse and far-reaching population.

You're confusing two different issues here.
Whether reincarnation is true; that is one issue.
Whether reincarnation is in the Bible; that is a completely different issue.
My comment was made on the second question.
You are arguing, in effect, "reincarnation is true, therefore it must have been in the Bible", which is bad logic. One does not follow from the other.
If you want to argue that reincarnation was removed from the Bible, you must present evidence that it was ever there in the first place.

reply to post by Xeven

Here is something that I believe will help you to understand exactly what has been going on:

Ruler of all, owns the Earth, and gives authority to the appointed. The appointed does stupid and puts himself under the shining one, who is called the adversary. By law, God can do nothing about it, because even he must abide by law. Bad translations make it seem otherwise, but as we have found, that is not true. So... Ruler of all, knows that left under the ownership of the shining one, sooner or later the Earth will be destroyed. He cannot take back ownership, and must abide by law. So he sends his servant to the Earth. His servant lives his life without breaking law. He is killed and judged. He is found to have never broken law. Because it is this which causes death, and he has not committed anything to command death, he comes back to life. Now we have a human, who is no longer under the authority of the shining one. Second, because he has been judged and found innocent, anyone within that household, recieves the same rights. That's how the law works. So Earth has a household, where the head is one of the appointed, but is not under the shining one, but a servant of Ruler of all. So ownership by law is now co shared by the shining one and Ruler of all. Now because the servant is to leave the Earth, the authority must be passed to other humans. But there are only two ways to come into a household. 1. Be born into the house 2. As a bondslave (who by law are to share in the household) So anyone who comes to the servant and asks to be a bondslave in his household, is freed from the authority of the shining one. The shining one realizes this and needs to return full ownership back to himself, before the appointed day. There are only two options.
1. Turn the bondslaves away from their master and back to his house
2. Kill the bondslave.
Now in the Hebrew Matthew, the first sign that the end is coming, was the turning of the church away from the servants original teachings. Those who follow them, remove themselves from the servants house. How? If a servant is not following his masters teachings, but another, who's authority is he or she under. So the first thing the shining one's forces did, was to enact that point

This is quoted with permission from Chris Tyreman, leader of the Chronicle Project team, from the Sept. newsletter. For link, see my signature!
I don't think I have ever seen it put more succinctly or clearly before. Hope that helps!

reply to post by DISRAELI



Jesus cannot open the scroll until he defeats satin on earth, And fulfills yet another prophecy? Is that the meaning,that is how I think of the scroll being opened,the declaration of Jesus kingdom on earth from God?

Originally posted by slinger
Jesus cannot open the scroll until he defeats satin on earth, And fulfills yet another prophecy?

As I understand the scene, Jesus can open the scroll because he has already defeated Satan on the Cross.
That is what is meant by the statement that the lion has "conquered".
The opening of the scroll then symbolises the final defeat of Satan on earth, which is the side-effect of his defeat on the Cross.

most excellent reading....speaks to my spirit...
what great stuff here on ATS i want more of this dissertation on hard meanings of the bible. how relevent!

reply to post by GBP/JPY

Thank you for that comment.
If you want more, you could try checking the links I provided to ch1 and ch4.
As I said, those three chapters of Revelation really belong together.