UFO's and the right to be skeptical

ATS is a discussion forum.

People discuss things here.

Its a simple concept.

So, if you present something on ATS that is unusual, and you don't know what it is, or you make a claim about it, you can expect to be challenged by skeptical people.

Just because you believe something does not mean that everyone is of the same mindset

Likewise

Just because you cannot explain something does not mean that no one can explain it

ATS has a range of members from all over the world, who have been studying these subjects for a long time. They come from all backgrounds from enthusiasts to professionals in their particular field and an awful lot of them know exactly what they are talking about and are very experienced.

If you present something, and a skeptic challenges you you have no right to respond in an uncivil manner

People may ask for more information. They may offer opinions. Unless those opinions break the Terms and Conditions of ATS they are acceptable

Just because someone may know more about a subject than you do does not make them a disinfo agent, shill, or any other such childish claim. It simply means they are more experienced.

However, more experienced does not always equate to being correct.

Sometimes, the skeptics are correct. Sometimes, the believers are correct. Its never a personal issue unless its made to be one

Civilised discussion is about an exchange of viewpoints presented in a non offensive manner

The skeptics complain about the believers, the believers complain about the skeptics. It doesn't matter which side of the fence you sit on in that particular battle but Civility and Decorm are Required on ATS from both sides.

As I have stated in another thread recently how you reply to a post is about personal responsibility

Please apply some when posting in the A&U forum

[edit on 17/8/10 by neformore]

I'd like to respond only once to the title of this thread.

These pro skeptic threads are boring and never accumulate to much.

why?

because we want to know about UFOs and ETs and I feel (not think) that the skeptic mob do not. thanks

[edit on 17-8-2010 by watchZEITGEISTnow]

there are variables in the equations that i have seen that sometimes, when it is a "perfect storm", so to speak, the skeptics and the believers are both right.

it isn't always black and white.
it isn't always right and wrong.
it isn't always fact and fiction.

more than likely there is a foundation of facts buried in tons of fiction.
hence, ATS and speculative discussions.

we need the questions both skeptics and believers ask and answer, it is what makes ATS more than ATS used to be.

i can appreciate a skeptic's point of view.
i can appreciate a believer's point of view.
i can learn a lot more by paying attention to their discussions, instead of picking a side and debunking no matter what, or following the leader no matter what.

i used to be a firefighter at nellis afb in nevada.
before i was stationed there, there was a major thunderbirds crash. the whole formation went down, noses first, into the desert.

why? why did they crash?

because:
the leader crashed, and the others in the formation were just following, keeping their eyes on the mark on their canopy, making sure it lined up with the little circle painted on the aircraft in front of them.

sometimes even the largest and mightiest of mamoths can lead the herd off a cliff when afraid of cavemen with pointy sticks.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

reply to post by neformore


You seem to be a bit all over the shop nef.

I guess this thread is the ying to the other threads yang so it balances it out in the end.

Wondering of you caught my reply to you in the other thread?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


Skeptics would like you, or anyone else for that matter to provide solid proof that ET's exist first of all, then we can start trying to know more about them. Anyway, i agree with the premise of the thread...

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Solomons]

i don't have the luxury of being skeptical (on some issues), but i can still learn from skeptics, and enjoy their presence on ATS.

i can sorta understand the skeptical point of view on certain levels.

here is a good arguement (from a skeptical point of view).

if they were here and are here among us or in our skies, then why haven't they either saved us by now, or put us out of our/their misery yet?

I have no problem with skeptics at all until I see those who toss everything out because "it simply isn't possible". We've got people here who believe in everything, and people who believe in nothing. What's the real difference between them? One is too open minded, the other too close minded. I understand the need for "objective" proof about things, and that, in reality, these kinds of things are mere opinion, but what about the thousands of anecdotal reports, including those by highly regarded observers? How can we be totally objective about aspects of this phenomena that are subjective in nature? Furthermore, I feel like it is impossible to totally remove our emotions in such evaluations. Strange things have happened throughout history, even before we had such "sophisticated" knowledge as we do now. We don't know as much as we think we know about "reality" or consciousness. There is some middle ground, and that's where real progress is made in these kinds of discussions, rhetoric be dammed.

reply to post by Chadwickus


Oh no. Not all over the shop at all.

There are some important messages in both my recent A&U threads that people need to understand, because they apparrently have forgotten what ATS is about.

Ying and Yang - yep.... just about covers the message

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
because we want to know about UFOs and ETs and I feel (not think) that the skeptic mob do not.

Wanting a certain answer does not translate into wanting know about a subject. Nor does is translate that those who disagree with that particular answer do not want to know more about a subject.

Originally posted by neformore
ATS is a discussion forum.

People discuss things here.

I may use those two sentences for my signature in the future.

is that ok with you nef? can i quote you?

reply to post by watchZEITGEISTnow


I'd like to answer your post.

Although I can only speak for myself (or not for some unspecified "we" ), I can tell you why I have been a regular presence (even if only as a reader) on this forum for the last 6 years (and one year more as a lurker), it's because I want to know the most that I can about aliens and UFOs.

But just because people say some thing it doesn't mean it's true, even things that have been considered true for a long time I consider them only more likely to be true than those that are presented without any real data to support it.

It's because I want to know that I don't like to see people having their resources moved away into things that look like out of focus lights in the sky and that are presented as being alien spaceships. Sure, they can be alien spaceships, but if we only see an out of focus light I just store that information as another light in the sky that may, in the future, be useful, but that now is just meaningless.

When I was younger (a long time ago ) I believed every thing people told me, like if I didn't eat my soup a man with a bag would appear and would take me away, but once I started having more information about the world around me I started to see that some things were more likely to be true than others, and so I have been cataloguing and classifying mentally (I have to start using more up-to-date methods ) all the things I see, some day all that data may be used, and even if I consider things very unlikely that means only that, with the information I have, my thought process makes me think of them as such, it doesn't mean that I am right.

Learning is the only thing we can do all of our lives, but only if we stop to think about the information we are receiving.

reply to post by neformore


Kudos for balancing the scales with this new thread Nef!

IRM

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
if they were here and are here among us or in our skies, then why haven't they either saved us by now, or put us out of our/their misery yet?

The very seed of that argument is, "Who or what are we even talking about here?" There's a kind of "given" notion around these parts (possibly to do with the forum being called Aliens and UFOs) that we're talking about Star Trek or Star Wars type aliens as being responsible for all the weird stuff happening. And there is weird stuff. We're all sure of that.

It's just unfortunate that so often the sighting or experience itself is so quickly shuffled off to the side so people can reach a "conclusion." Oh, well, it's an alien spacecraft because nothing on Earth could do what it did. Really? There are other potential explanations, you know.

It's important to look at the cold, hard facts first, then see what we can draw from them. We have to look at the source of those facts, too, because you can't just believe everybody. Even in religions, some wacko prophets are believed and some are told to take a hike.

If looking at the facts without trying to jump to a conclusion qualifies me as a close-minded skeptic, then that's fine. If other people are willing to accept lousy evidence and less proof so it maintains their fantasy, I suppose that's fine, too. But there will be a little friction when those two viewpoints meet.

Most skeptics I know are aching for somebody to show them proof that holds up to scrutiny, and actually provides some clues to a potential explanation. Alien, time traveler, time slip, tulpa, whatever. Unfortunately, that just doesn't happen.

reply to post by Blue Shift



Most skeptics I know are aching for somebody to show them proof that holds up to scrutiny, and actually provides some clues to a potential explanation. Alien, time traveler, time slip, tulpa, whatever. Unfortunately, that just doesn't happen.


You see, I "see" what you are stating here as being nothing less than the intellectual equivalent of sheer laziness. If "skeptics" and not those truly being skeptical BTW, were TRULY interested in as much, and were not busy keeping at the forefront of their own minds, conclusions that they themselves have already drawn concerning these matters, it's THEY that would be eagerly researching the very proof that they so nobly crave.

I'm sorry friend, but I simply don't buy this line reasoning. Too many other great minds are BUSY searching for that proof and not waiting for others to "give" it to them.

Originally posted by MasterOfSparkz
I'm sorry friend, but I simply don't buy this line reasoning. Too many other great minds are BUSY searching for that proof and not waiting for others to "give" it to them.

We all have our ways of searching, depending on our positions in life. No, I'm not crawling around some jungle tomb, looking for glowing alien power sources. But if somebody has found one, I'll certainly take a look at what they say about it.

The unfortunate thing with a lot of people out there looking for proof, is that they're looking for proof to verify what they already believe. Like the folks out there looking for Noah's Ark. To them, every bit of old wood they find "proves" their belief in Noah's Ark. To some people, every blurry video of a light in the night sky proves their belief in aliens. But far too often, these people are trying to connect two dots when one of the dots hasn't even been proven to exist.

Anyway, let me know what you dig up on your next trip to Tibet. I wish I could go there with you.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Blue Shift]

reply to post by Blue Shift


Remember: Proof is a by-product of discovery. Not the other way around. Few scientists discover anything new and subsequently prove that same new discovery in an aimless and undirected manner. They suspect what they are are looking for, and often find as a result. Both faith and imagination are KEY components of science.

Incidentally, I'm not going to Tibet anytime soon, but if I were, you'd be welcome. In the same turn, you'd be welcome to vicariously research along with those of us that possess a real level of enthusiasm for this phenomena as well. Both are arduous labors, I assure you.

Originally posted by watchZEITGEISTnow
I'd like to respond only once to the title of this thread.

These pro skeptic threads are boring and never accumulate to much.

why?

because we want to know about UFOs and ETs and I feel (not think) that the skeptic mob do not. thanks

[edit on 17-8-2010 by watchZEITGEISTnow]

The probably want to know more about ET than you if there have researched as much as they did. You only choose the information that agrees with your beliefs.

If a skeptic asks a question the believer better have a good answer to convince him, a skeptic is just someone who is curious and questions and is doubtful.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Mythic Chris]

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Mythic Chris]

Like i have said before I consider myself a skeptical believer unlike the blind believers. I think beings or some type of intelligence is interacting and visiting even though I am not 100% sure. There is no proof these things come from another planet just hearsay. Im not sure of they are alien at all actually im thinking these beings are inter dimensional or time travelers something along that line. However I am not at liberty to be absolutely convinced of anything and am quite skeptical of most UFO cases especially in modern times. What burns my arse is these blind believers that buy every UFO report or footage as the real thing, let alone call it Aliens Not only that they think hoaxes are a good thing and at the same time will not recognize hoaxes as deception.

Try asking one of the blind i want to believe folks if they can think of any cases they consider to be a hoax. You will not get an answer or they change subject. Because they consider debunking as an attack on their religion. Yes a religion.. no longer UFOligy, the believers are not interested in solving a UFO claim only to use it as gospel and propaganda. To say "that is an alien ship" is jumping to conclusions in a pre conceived belief system. There is no logical approach to this.

When someone says: do you believe IN UFO's I laugh

This imply's I believe IN them thus I worship them

That is like asking if I believe in Jesus or his word. I have seen these craft and am still unsure what who is operating them if it is AI even. I say i think these objects are real but I do not believe IN them or the new age hippie scams, federation of light, raliens, Scientology ,world infared alliance and the rest of the cult hoax crap. The believers act many times as if skeptics are on some witch hunt or out to derail UFOligy by finding inconsistencies in certain reports and scrutiny under analysis. I have a youtube supporting UFO videos and vlogging on my UFO sightings and experiences yet I have been called a dissinfo agent or MIB by debunking hoaxes?

Without skepticism it is no longer UFOligy it becomes a belief system or religion in many cases Cults. UFOligy and researching is about fact finding much like ATS is like a Database without the BS! And that the way I like it.



I Believe OF UFO's however i have no idea nor proof these are Extraterrestrial or what they are just suspicions nothing more. Nobody does know for certain or can prove it and that is the whole point of this board in finding it and or learning as a work in progress .

S&F
Deny Ignorance




[edit on 17-8-2010 by Unknown Soldier]

Agree with Blue Shift, mostly.

Even if some Ufos are of ET origin IMHO they are far more likely to be intelligent probes without old-fashioned humanoid alien pilots. See the SETV project, for example.

To cover this logical point, why not remove 'Aliens' from the title of this forum?

Agree with Blue Shift, mostly.

Even if some Ufos are of ET origin IMHO they are far more likely to be intelligent probes without old-fashioned humanoid alien pilots. See the SETV project, for example.

To cover this logical point, why not remove 'Aliens' from the title of this forum?