Who else sees the religion/atheism debate as a non-issue?

I have found that, when a thread is started by one group, the other group joins in to destroy it. I call it ATS camaraderie.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I have found that, when a thread is started by one group, the other group joins in to destroy it. I call it ATS camaraderie.

Certainly helps when the OP has an agenda.

Especially a hidden agenda. Which is often the case.

It's kinda hard to just stay quite when you have presidents saying atheists shouldn't be considered citizens.

Since I was a very young adult (now nearing retirement), the entire concept of athiesism has been confusing to me. My thoughts regarding this subject have been simple. I have often asked myself, "If a person chooses to not believe in God, does't he/she first have to admit that God exists?". How can a person proclaim to not beileve in something without first acknowledging it exists? An athiest would say "I don't believe in God". Doesn't an athiest has to at least acknowledge "God" in order to not believe?

The religion-atheism debate is actually a debate between science and God. The funny thing is they're both saying the same things in different ways.

I believe God created the universe to evolve, and it was God who gave us the tools to figure out how it did it. An atheist will just remove the word God from the sentence, which is fine. What I don't think is fine is religion imposing on the non-religious, and the non-religious imposing on those who believe.

There's no reason a small group of people should be able to sour it for the many. I would like to see less of what people refer to as "Tolerance". Tolerance means "putting up with it". What I would like to see is more effort to be understanding.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by projectvxn


Exactly... Thank you

That is what i was trying to explain here...

The battle of faith and science

Why can we not have evolution and religion? Science and God? Why do people feel we always have to pick a side??

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Atheists in my hometown spent not all that much money so that they could make an old lady ringing a bell for the salvation army stand outside the post office during one of our worst ice/snow storms.

I see an irrational exertion of ones beliefs on the other by both groups.

You will need to explain further.

But why is a religious person standing in front of a government office?

Are you saying she should be allowed to solicit inside a government office?

And yes donations are solicitation. Is the Salvation Army going to use that money to provide gifts for the child of a gay couple or feed them? NO - they are not.

Do you not see how your religious ideals (or lack thereof) are clouding your judgement enough that the suffering of someone who is trying to help the needy gets shunned just because of association?

I mean, the first sentence kind of says it all: why would a religious person not be allowed to stand in a government building?

But it seems that the baby goes out with the bath water. Because this group decides how to divy up the money (and i could not tell you how it is done, but i could ask the local captain, as he speaks at my weekly Rotary meetings) and it doesn't make everyone happy, they should not do their good works?

This is the problem. Ideals come before common sense. Just because it is a religiously affiliated group, we have to have Atheists up in arms. Well....are there going to be Atheists to fill the void they are creating? Not seeing an Atheist version of the Salvation Army feeding the needy on Thanksgiving. If there are any in my area, tell them to contact me. I will put them in front of some wealthy folks with money to donate.

reply to post by silent thunder


Atheists like myself wouldn't bother debating religion if the religious didn't keep foisting it upon us and preaching their rubbish. If they just kept it to themselves then the debate but be largely unheard. When they start pushing their baseless rubbish like Creationism, well then i have a problem and will speak up.

Religion is something that grants one unspeakable faith (in some cases). What I don't get is why someone else would make it their mission to try to rob them of that. However some religious folks DO push their beliefs too hard on others, as is human nature when one thinks they are right. I just can't believe how rude some can be, for example religious folks tend to look at the atheists as the "poor folks, who just just aren't fortunate enough to understand" and the atheists tend to mock us religious folks and look at us like "The fools who blindly follow a creed without proof or reason". One thing is certain, we all have free will, and we ALL need to respect that.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


Do you not see how your religious ideals (or lack thereof) are clouding your judgement enough that the suffering of someone who is trying to help the needy gets shunned just because of association?

Where have I mentioned my religious ideals?

I do know that when many of these organizations were told they could not proselytize in soup kitchens - - they said they would close down - - rather then provide food to those in need.

Few - very few - provide charity without conditions.

Originally posted by projectvxn
The religion-atheism debate is actually a debate between science and God. The funny thing is they're both saying the same things in different ways.

I believe God created the universe to evolve, and it was God who gave us the tools to figure out how it did it. An atheist will just remove the word God from the sentence, which is fine. What I don't think is fine is religion imposing on the non-religious, and the non-religious imposing on those who believe.

There's no reason a small group of people should be able to sour it for the many. I would like to see less of what people refer to as "Tolerance". Tolerance means "putting up with it". What I would like to see is more effort to be understanding.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by projectvxn]

I have said as much. The main problem is that both sides see God the way our fathers saw it( as a mighty powerful human like being).
God Is The Maker Of All That Is. Simple, nothing complicated.
There is a great deal of truth in what religious people say about God. God is biased to people that acknowledge it's existence. God is also biased to people that pray to it and follow the commandments.

The reason for this is very simple, because God made reality the way we perceive it; Prayer is like asking and thinking about a problem for a period of time, this bends reality towards your needs.

Every decision we make and things we do bends reality, e.g. I want to go to Vegas to gamble, what are the odds that I would lose my money and what are the odds that I would become a priest in the casino? Makes more sense that I would lose my money because that is what the casino owner designed it for.

My point is; You ask, You recieve. This is how reality works.
There are events that happen that seem to be unlikely, people call them miracles. These events are what statisticians call outliers. Meaning away from the normal spread.

They don't happen often because reality is biased to events that are closely related hence praying and asking and expecting to recieve tend to work. Remember work often has to be put in even for (religious point of view) prayers to work.

The beauty of this explanation is that it does not contradict the believes of religious, agnostic and aetheist people.

This is why I thinks God vs No God, Religion Vs Religion, Aetheist Vs Religious, is a non issue.
We are saying the same thing, only from different perspectives.

Originally posted by alonzo730
I believe there is a difference between religion and spirituality. I believe an atheist can be spiritual. I don't think religious people are spiritual. I think most religious people have been brainwashed into believing they are spiritual. Religion is not the answer, neither is atheism for that matter. It's spirituality that's important.

The thing is, I think people who TRULY find a profound connection between themselves and everything else in the universe (an awakening of inner self) will always first realize that they are spiritual but will not be capable of giving it a name. I believe a person can have a profound spiritual awakening without having anything to do with religion whatsoever.

What that person would experience is a realization of profound significance but it can never exactly be pinpointed or quantified. It is almost a recognition of the true scale of the universe and your place within it and a sense of awe that somehow you were lucky enough to be a part of it.

The same thing happened to me about 13 years ago. It's almost as if suddenly I comprehended the vastness and complexity of the universe as deriving from pure simplicity and my soul was thankful to be part of it. A sense of oneness and connection with that universe as we exist as life and energy within it. My friend had taught me to meditate a few weeks earlier and it forever changed my outlook on everything.

But I had no faith. I was frustrated about religion because of war and conflict over thousands of years of human history and that it still existed today. Plus the fact that my part of the country, which was dominantly Southern Baptist, was so closed-minded about spirituality in general. I felt like I had conscoiusly excommunicated the ignorance of the majority of human beings on this planet and could finally be at peace without having to worry about religion, war, death, etc. because none of that was what was really important in the world.

I think this sensation is the most elusive thing in the universe and many people do not find an inner peace like it even when the search for it. But somehow I was content knowing that although I was just a miniscule, almost completely insignificant speck in the vastness of "everything else" that I could not only make a difference in this world but would one day have my fair go at everything life had to offer. Even after all the dark memories of my childhood.

And I did! The most important thing that it has taught me is that religion is just a word. God might not even exist. But if it doesn't, I would be O.K. with that.

I believe "Spirituality", in the true sense, is triggered by something within our subconscious. It might be a traumatic life experience, a profound meditative experience (with or without drugs), etc.. It feels as if your whole life you had lived in darkness and uncertainty and someone had flipped a switch in your mind so that you could finally understand the beauty and awe of the universe. It is an absence of worry, fear, anger, hatred. It also makes you feel "alien" to other people but not in a negative or condescending sense.

-ChriS

reply to post by silent thunder

but somehow it just doesn't strike me as all that important.

Does 911 ring any bells?

What about Creationists trying to get their nonsense into science classrooms?

Have you seen the statistics lately? Here in America close to a majority of the population believe that human beings were created in their current form in the last 10,000 years. What happens when they want to bring their fairy-tales into the classroom?

I used to a be a fundamentalist Christian. Now that I am an atheist I do my best to show people the same evidence and logical arguments that slowly but surely talked me down out of the realm of superstition and blind faith and into the realm of reason and reality.

I agree that sometimes the constant debate gets tedious but I feel that its worth it. The world is a more dangerous place thanks to religious belief, particularly fundamentalism and extremism.

I'll let one of my favorite youtubers explain:

Thanks everyone for your responses.

As I suspected, some of you understood what I was trying to express in the original post, and have been much more eloquent in explicating the basic meaning than me. Much appreciated.

There are lots of comments here I'd like to respond to, but its become too many, really.

Below is something I posted in another ATS thread once, so I will regurgitate it here because I think it is relevant:

Shakespere is not "literally true" -- there was no such historical person as King Lear or Hamlet, prince of Denmark, never mind the beings of A Midsummer Night's Dream -- but few would argue it is worthless. I don't see religion and mythology as in competition with science and rationality. I think they address different spheres of the human experience, just as literature can tell us valuable things without being "factual," and is not seen by science as a threat. Unfortunately these days people on both sides of the "religion versus science" debate are trying to cram these unrelated systems into some kind of unecessary head-to-head conflict, which is a tragedy for all.

"Religion is poetry plus, not science minus." -Krister Stendahl

Thanks again,

Silent Thunder

I started as a catholic, and attended presbyterian churches, church of christ, baptist, Lutheran methodist and Episcopal churches at random times in the process. I eventually turned into an atheist. Then I became an agnostic. I've studied religonand the occult since I was able to read and I came to a conclusion about 15 years ago.

The conclusion was that what other people believe doesn't matter. As long as it doesn't infringe on my beliefs. If I lived in a Muslim country and their legal foundations were based on Sharia law and I didn't like it, I'd leave. If I was an atheist I didn't like that America's legal system is based on the 10 commandments, I'd leave. I live in the US. I can practice whatever religon I care to. No matter how silly it is. And nobody will bother me about it unless I infringe on other peoples freedoms. Great program.

I see people complaining about the 10 commandments being outside of a courtroom. It's what our legal system is based on. And does anyone really have any problem with the actual commandments themselves? I'm agnostic and I don't. I think they are great rules to live by. If I didn't like it, I'm free to leave. People want to change it because it isn't theirs. It's ridiculous.

Who cares if I believe in a creator. Who cares if you worship satan. Who cares if you pray to L. Ron Hubbard or don't believe in anything? I don't. Just leave me the hell alone. Don't hurt anyone and pray or don't pray to whomever you choose.

God, or a creator, can't be proven or disproven. It's all pure speculation. So why argue over something that can never be proven? Sure people can find holes in all religons and in a lack of religon. But the bottom line is it's an individual belief. Faith, or a lack therof. Unprovable. So why argue? WHy not pick up the chicken or the egg debate instead, it will be about as productive...

Originally posted by psychederic


Atheism is also SCIENCE, FACT, AND THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTHS

A thing is many things to many people. This is your opinion and caps lock doesn't make it any more or less than that.

Originally posted by projectvxn
The religion-atheism debate is actually a debate between science and God. The funny thing is they're both saying the same things in different ways.

Perhaps that's true of the science/god debate, but I tend to think they are not the same thing at all, but rather get lumped in together by habit.

I find it's the same way with the Abortion debate. Debate abortion and religion seems to crawl it's way in every time. When the parties of god take a side, it gets corrupted by it.

I believe God created the universe to evolve, and it was God who gave us the tools to figure out how it did it. An atheist will just remove the word God from the sentence, which is fine. What I don't think is fine is religion imposing on the non-religious, and the non-religious imposing on those who believe.

It would be nice, but to be honest, you'd have to change the religions to conform to that idea as they have tenants that work in direct opposition to the idea.

There's no reason a small group of people should be able to sour it for the many. I would like to see less of what people refer to as "Tolerance". Tolerance means "putting up with it". What I would like to see is more effort to be understanding.

Understanding is a grand thing, truly, but sadly it's lacking mainly due to a lack of listening/reading. People gravitate to information that bolster's their position, limiting thinking and understanding.

I think we agree more than disagree, but then the world wouldn't be quite so nasty a place if our wishes had wings.

Peace
KJ

The endless debate annoys me.

It all boils down to what we believe. At this time, there are not enough facts or evidence to prove that there is a god as depicted in religion's stories. And atheism is just ignorance. To just assume that there is no 'god' and close your mind to the possibility.

I believe that organized religion is just a system of control. And there is more evidence for that, than anything.

I also am one of spirituality. And I believe that each and every individual is their own 'god'. There is a whole theory on why that makes sense, but I don't want to get into that right now.

(Just be yourself and enjoy life, while not pushing your own values on to others.)

Remember to love yourself first, before anything else. Be selfish. But dare not be greedy.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by BlubberyConspiracy]

[edit on 27-7-2010 by BlubberyConspiracy]

Originally posted by BlubberyConspiracy
And atheism is just ignorance. To just assume that there is no 'god' and close your mind to the possibility.

Excuse me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To just assume there is a god - - blah blah blah

Ignorance: lack of knowledge. There is no knowledge of a god. There is only Faith.

reply to post by Annee


What is god, can't have an argument without understanding the subject material.

In my opinion there are too many semantic interpretations, rendering any constructive argument null, the only way to argue and debate is if both parties agree on what it is they are discussing.