A Challenge to 2012 Believers

So, as I was reading the topic about Dr. Tyson today I was wondering why people do believe in a 2012 doomsday scenario. All I ever hear are hypothetical situations put forward by non-scientists and claims that the fact that there is no evidence is evidence that something is going to happen. So, my challenge is this present to me the best evidence you have pertaining to something cataclysmic or transcendental happening on December 21, 2012 (or sometime in 2011 if you're part of that camp.) I want to know what you are basing your beliefs on in an attempt to better understand my fellow ATSers.

However, do not come in here expecting me to be wowed by Sumerian translations done by Sitchin. He himself has never said that Nibiru would return in 2012. In fact the person who did originally make that claim made numerous predictions before and when they were proven false erased any trace of them from her website.

I have thrown done the gauntlet. Show me the evidence that originally turned you into a believer. I may be skeptic, but I am willing to change my mind if you can show me evidence that can be explained in no other way than a huge event occurring on the predicted date.

You can't prove a negative friend .

I'm of the camp that something will occur in 2012, not a world cataclysm but perhaps a spiritual awakening of sorts.

I don't have any evidence, just my experiences during meditation and OOBE's.

~Keeper

Ahh the birth of a new age! Well i hope this age is better then the last...

I would be very helpful if you would describe what you mean by "evidence." The various interpretations of the Mayan calender are not evidence, nor is the calender on the ceiling in the Egyptian building depicting the same thing. Clearly these are not evidence to you. The Hopi prophecy's are not evidence either, no are the many other representations in various writings and even teachings. So, given we must rule out written documentation, handed down information, and intuition, what is evidence to you? Once we understand what you require for evidence, then we can provide it to you, though I would suggest there is no evidence of gravity, and I defy you to prove you exist in the form you claim you exist, but that is for another time. For now, state your needs.

While I'm not 100% convicted in 2012 in my own head all these seed stores and dna banks that world governments have and seem to be stocking up does make me think 2+2 will always be 4

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
You can't prove a negative friend

.

I'm of the camp that something will occur in 2012, not a world cataclysm but perhaps a spiritual awakening of sorts.

I don't have any evidence, just my experiences during meditation and OOBE's.

~Keeper

whats a spiritual awakening? if it is to occur in 2012 will it be quick or something that sneaks up on you? Does a spritual awakening start at the same time for everyone and does it mean the same to the deeply religous, the average joe on the street, the military types the pacifist and the physchotic schitzoid personalities?

Evidence for something that hasn't happened yet will be impossible to find.

Evidence for wrong predictions made in the past is easy to find.

I'm with Keeper in as much as I've seen things in what we could call meditation that relate to the timeframe 2008 to 2012 and after.

Prior to that I had no idea that there were any theories about 2012 at all.. seriously.. I was in my own little world out in the country away from the madding crowds, so the isolation kept me clear of any concepts about the date.

And things stayed that way until I felt a very strong inner push to get back to meditation practice.. or journeys as I call them.. since I had done nothing for about 10 years at that time.

One of the first was with a group of elderly ladies at their weekly get together that my mentor attended, and that she asked me to attend as she was going to oversee a future walk journey to view Possibilities and Probabilities.

I am not in any camp relating to a definite belief in one thing happening around that year, so I do not believe that an Ascension or Awakening ONLY will occur, nor do I believe that earth changes ONLY will occur.

What I saw in this journey back in 1998 is that both would already be underway and would grow in intensity as we approached the year in question.

Basically I saw a surge in madness in the world, which is exactly what has been occuring, and an increasing phase of natural disasters as well as a slow and steady growth in awareness among some people.

I cannot say that nothing will occur, or that one thing only will occur.

What I can say is that all things are occuring as I saw them, and all at the same time.

We humans are reaching a threshold that we cannot back away from now because we waited for far too long to even discuss what changes need to be made let alone do anything.

So, I see a continued increase in natural disasters and similar events, there is a possibility that our mindset of Might is Right will lead us into another large but short term war, there is a probability that even if no earth events were to occur we would still strangle human life off this little blue dot anyway.

This so-called New Age is a misnomer.. as it won't occur for some hundreds of years yet according to the Precessional movements.

But, what we are seeing is the first small seed planting for the new way humans must be, for the protocols we will need to live by in order to survive long term in Equality.

reply to post by markygee


I wish I had those answers, but really I don't know.

I just have a feeling that people are just going to "wake" up.

There is going to be some sort of re-awekening of human conciousness.

Or maybe not, I could be wrong, but it's what I've been shown and what I have felt..

~Keeper

reply to post by crankyoldman


First off, the Mayan calendar is not evidence. Not only is 2012 just one of many dates that it is postulated to end on, which only gained notoriety when a New Ager wrote about it the 70s, it also isn't the end of their calendar. Other calendars have been found that talk about events that occur long after the 13th B'ak'tun. As for the Hopi prophecies I have never seen any date attached to them by the Hopis themselves, but by New Age writers. I am unfamiliar with the Egyptian carving you're talking about so if you could provide a link that would be great.

reply to post by Xcalibur254


Thanks for posting this.
It's nice to see someone who is rational about 2012...in other words, it's just another year like 2008, 2009, 2010, etc...

Nobody will post any scientific evidence that something will happen because nobody has any evidence.

As a matter of fact, even the supposed believers don't really believe that something will happen, which I find really amusing

I cant say I believe in 2012 as a doomsday event, there are just sooo many 'explanations' as to why all of us or atleast most of us will be wiped out. Its hardly likely that on that exact date the sun sends out huge solar flares and an asteroid hits earth and along comes this rouge planet and hits us too and the devil appears and the poles flip and a nuclear war starts blah blah blah, all together. That for me is one of the main reasons the theory isnt very credible, all of these things can be 'predicted' and reasoned for somehow by people who believe them. And as one of the guys above said, even though he wasnt agreeing, all the theories and thoughts on the prophecies that 'predict' something for 2012 are interpretations. You can read into them what you want.

On the other hand, the sheer number of things that are said to predict some sort of event makes me wonder.... I dont think the world will end but it would seem that something will happen around that time, but I havent got any idea what, maybe it is something spiritual not that I generaly go for that. But meh, just because an amount of people say something doesnt make it true so guess we can only wait and see. I'm just interested to see what happens.

i have a confidence that the Maya mindset that; life follows cycles...
and these cycles are chronicled in their calander...
long count >baktuns >katuns(short count)...

see:

www.divinehumanity.com...

regarding the Maya 'long count' calendar;
The 260th parts (19.7 years) were called katuns.
The 20ths of the Long Count were groups of 13 katuns (256 years)
sometimes referred to as the "short count."
This later grouping had a long prophetic tradition...


Each of the 13 katuns has a specific "fate" attached to it
and the Maya believed that the occurrence, or arrival, of each katun brought
with it this fate.
We know this from surviving records, including the various books of
"Chilam Balam" (jaguar priest) that were written after the Spanish conquest of Yucatan. ...

[[[the below two Katun prophecies, are based on repeating cycles of previous human activity... these two 19.7 year Katuns' describe the (Maya) World from 1993-2012 & from 2012-2032]]]

Katun 4-Ahau: There will be scarcities of corn and squash during this katun and this will lead to great mortality.
This was the katun during which the settlement of Chichen Itza occurred, when the man-god Kukulcan (Quetzalcoatl) arrived.
It is the katun of remembering and recording knowledge.


Katun 2-Ahau: For half of the katun there will be food, for half some misfortunes.
This katun brings the end of the "word of God." It is a time of uniting for a cause
...

now, the interpetation is what is at hand...

the 'scarcity of corn & squash' might mean that money becomes scarce for some, leading to morbidity for some/many...
just how the global finance/fiscal crisis, and the defaults of all central banking will lead to the collapse of the civilized world...or how the multiple wars by the American empire plays into this Katun cyclic prophecy is unclear...

the theme for this last Ahau4 Katun, still seems to suggest that social-economic Entropy occurs throughout the global community, in that all systems fall into chaos !


i stand on a vaporious cloud in vouching for this trancendental happening coming upon mankind in the period from 1993-2012 & from 2012-2032...
instead of a singular event occuring on 21 dec 2012





[edit on 14-7-2010 by St Udio]

if I post enough time related doom messages relating to every year between now and say 2050 and something occurs that is similar to one of my posts does this make me a prophet or a lucky guesser?
Doesn't prophecy making work by picking a cataclysmic but not to unrealistic disaster and then prediciting it to happen quite far off in the future preferably after my death? or am I just being cynical?

I have a Hello Kitty calendar from 2009 that predicted the end of the world on December 31, 2009. Why do I say that? Well that is when the calendar ends after all

reply to post by jfj123


maybe there is more to this than meets the eye, I have canned food that says best before dec 2012... what are the food companies not telling us?

Originally posted by markygee
reply to post by jfj123

 

maybe there is more to this than meets the eye, I have canned food that says best before dec 2012... what are the food companies not telling us?

What evidence is there to suggest there is more than meets the eye?

And how can you know what the food companies are NOT telling us?

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by markygee
reply to post by jfj123

 

maybe there is more to this than meets the eye, I have canned food that says best before dec 2012... what are the food companies not telling us?

What evidence is there to suggest there is more than meets the eye?

And how can you know what the food companies are NOT telling us?

I think he was kidding.
I hope he was kidding...

Just pay attention to www.spaceweather.com... to get a better idea.... By next year the sun will be behaving quite differently. If we still have power of course

reply to post by St Udio


just a little follow up on the cyclic nature of previous Katun events... which you can put into perspective with this present era (corresponds to 4 Ahau Katun in Maya long count calender)

And what of the present katun, katun 4-Ahau? According to the Maya inscriptions, the katun began on 4/6/1993 and ends with the entire Long Count/creation epoch on 12/21/2012. Following the prophecy scheme of the cycle of the 13 katuns listed above, we could expect scarcities and the arrival of great leaders. It is also the katun of "remembering knowledge and writing it down." It does appear that in the past this katun coincided with a questionable measure of stability in the world and also significant advances in the written word. For example, katun 4-Ahau lasted from 1224 to 1244. During this time Frederick II took Jerusalem, but he took it diplomatically. The next time this katun came up was between 1480 and 1500. Clearly, this was a period of great voyages and discoveries -- but things were also relatively stable politically which made exploration possible. This period also marks an important period of growth in printing. Katun 4-Ahau came up next between 1736 and 1756. Interestingly, it was during this period that the first encyclopedia was published. The War of the Austrian Succession 1740-1748 did bring a settlement of territories and a measure of stability, and there were a number of alliances formed during this time as well. Power kept shifting, but did not erupt in an all-out way. Such may actually be the case from 1993 to 2012.


Finally, the present Long Count/creation epoch of the Maya comes to an end on December 21st (the winter solstice), of 2012. What will the katun that begins this new era be like? The Maya regarded katun 2-Ahau as half good and half bad, a time of uniting for a cause, but also as the katun during which came the "end of the word of God." And what does that mean? It is true that in previous 2-Ahau katuns there were great religious or ideological crises. Between 1500 and 1520 the Aztecs were conquered and forced to convert to Christianity. Also in 1517 Martin Luthor started the Protestant Reformation. 256 years later, between 1756 and 1776, the ideas of liberty and the rights of countries and individuals became a growing trend and this led to the American colonies declaring independence from England. One could say that a new era was indeed dawning, although it took a few more katuns before it could stand on its own two feet. Quite possibly some of our most taken-for-granted beliefs, secular and religious, will begin to lose cohesiveness and credibility after 2012, paving the way for a genuinely new age. If the Maya were right, then don't hold your breath for the mere millennium, the year 2000, hang on for the real changes that should begin twelve years later in 2012 and culminate with katun 13-Ahau which starts in 2032.


Like a biorhythm, which is the perfect form of a natural, though usually numerically inexact cycle, the katun allowed the Maya to better organize their life and to predict the future. Like a fractal wave, the Maya saw history as repeating itself on differing scales. With this knowledge they timed their rituals and gave meaning to human life. Perhaps we can use a few of their ideas.


(1) For more information on Mesoamerican astrology see the author's books "Signs of Time: An Introduction to Mesoamerican Astrology" and "Day-Signs: Native American Astrology from Ancient Mexico." Both are available from One Reed Publications.


www.onereed.com...

thanks...
& think for onesself
& also elevate onself from the twitter mentality

[edit on 14-7-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by hippomchippo

I think he was kidding.
I hope he was kidding...

Ya never know
2nd line