A Right To Sustenance - Its time for real change

Oh I agree with you. It has to start with one person. You can only hope it catches on. I actually wish it would. But the OP wanted us to spot the holes in the arguement, so I did.
Thanks for the followup. I can really see this thread going somewhere.

reply to post by kettlebellysmith


Psychological fulfillment is the next step in our increasingly tolerant society. In the same way that we tolerate people maintaining their African heritage and culture in the midst of white America is the same way we must tolerate scientists, artists and volunteers* in the midst of work-to-eat culture. These people have individualized heritage (in the form of passion and talent) for areas of expertise that are not encouraged by profit driven economies. Yet their contributions to society are way more important and revolutionary when compared to the contributions of accountants and stock brokers. (No offense)

It is written in many, many psychology books that psychological fulfillment leads to a happier, more productive life. My argument is that we should rearrange our relationship to work around the past 100 years of psychological and sociological studies. These areas of knowledge did not exist when we developed capitalism and democracy. People work better when they want to work. Because of this we will produce better products, faster and more efficiently.

We're up to around 230 years of utilizing democracy and capitalism and its gotten out of hand and unstable. We're at the mercy of economic oligarchs that use money and food as leverage to wrestle our lives away from us. We've reached the limits of capitalism and what it can do for human society. Its time to move to a more creative, individualized approach to the problem of "how to contribute to the well being of society while still making myself happy?" Free Labor tries to actually provide a choice while maintaining the current system as a voluntary, as opposed to mandatory, employment option.

You'd be surprised how many people would farm their backyards or grow a greenhouse if they had the time and knowledge. The desire is there; to be independent and self sustaining while still being a part of the culture. This was the original goal of capitalism but its monstrous leaders have perverted the ideas of independence and self sustainability into dependence on the economic system. They use ideas like Puritan work ethic and pride in one's work as an attack on "welfare". Basically, they make it shameful to be dependent on the state because they want you dependent on them. Work, withholding food for labor, is how the the rich make us dependent on them and, thus making themselves and their products relevant to society.

The public, you and I, pay taxes to offer free food and shelter to the poor in exchange for nothing. Extended to everyone (not just the wretchedly poor) this "welfare" is freedom to finally become independent. We do it for millions of prisoners and welfare recipeints, why cant we do it for everyone?

*For the record volunteers is simply the only word we have for people who utilize their work day to directly improve the lives of their fellow world citizens. We do not pay people to clean up the environment because there is no product to sell on the market at the end of the workday. The jobs that need to get done, cleaning the environment and swiiching to clean energy sources, will never get done if we have to forfeit our access to food and water in exchange for helping the world.



Thank you everyone for the comments, They've helped me see the ideas from another angle. I'll get to responding to more in time. In the meantime, thanks for reading and keep the contributions coming.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


I think we agree on more than you think. People would get food and shelter in exchange for following the rules of society and contributing in their own unique way. If you're a painter, you paint. If you're a rock star, you rock. If you want to own a small business the situation isn't life and death since you can always fall back upon the welfare state.

Providing food and shelter in exchange for obedience and contribution is a complete reversal of how our society treats us. I'm arguing for positive reinforcement over our society's negative reinforcement. We get punished. Our obedience is taken for granted. Disobedience a powerful weapon against the rich and powerful and we should be rewarded for not unleashing it upon them.

So we'd have a responsibility to society to contribute and be nice to each other. Punishments, when they are meted out, would be in the form of excommunication. Free Labor society provides for its members. If you violate the rules of society you lose your privileges to food and shelter. You get kicked out. If you don't want to be a part of our community start your own or join some other city that might be more conducive to your lifestyle. This parallels tribal law and reminds us of the benefits of being a part of a community while encouraging the creation of new (independent, yet tolerant) cultures in new places. This will be very important after the rich run this economy into the ground.

Time banks are revolutionary. They democratize work and allow people to contribute the best they know how. They are vital part of Free Labor economy. Its great that we are starting people based alternative economies, networks and infrastructure BEFORE the fall of current society. Time banks are what we will fall back on when the money system implodes.

I guess I meant employability according to the rules of economic culture. Kind of how everyone has a resume of what they can offer an employer but what they do best might not be on that piece of paper. After all, what do my musical skills have to offer the finance industry?

We all have to play this game and put on this mask in the economic world. We become our false selves that we create simply to navigate this artificial world of money and forced labor. I guess I meant we should have access to food and shelter without having to enter into this economic (and psychological) rabbit hole we call employment.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


Soon they'll all die off like the dinosaurs they are, these holier than though elitists... The truth is the meek (us) Will inherit the Earth and it's coming soon, but just remember when you come across one of these slugs that were in such high authority and wealth, that you treat them exactly how they have treated us, without prejudice, give them the same respect they gave us. Because if they are allowed to live on then they will spread their disease again with no holds barred : the disease of Hoarding and Greed!!!!



[edit on 13-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

reply to post by doctornamtab


a right to sustenance -such a grand idea but as flawed as those who believe that they can save the world.
china recently announced to the world that they can no longer grow enough rice to feed their people let alone export it to the rest of the world .
Africa is screaming feed the hungry look at our starving children.india is also in this same boat . all because they don`t believe in BIRTH CONTROL. huge families that they cannot afford to feed let alone raise .

nations around the world are more intent on their great profit and loss- that nothing else matters to them -feed the world with what.

look at us in Canada and the u.s. and all other so called world leading nations . we are turning our farms into subdivisions faster than a speeding jet . all in the name of money.
our companies for many years used to spread their toxic waste all over the ground and let it soak in and disappear ,along with the toxins from their companies and our transportation which goes up as smog and falls as toxic rain. FRESH WATER no longer exists. our drinking water is so full of toxins now that we are killing our selves and children as the little ones have 2 to 3 times the levels of toxins in their little bodies than we as adults have.this science has proven.

so what are the side effects on we the people of the WORLD, kids with cancer in record numbers ,adh ,Alzheimers from the heavy metals, and this is probably only the tip of the ice burg.
and where are our so called leaders on these issues -no where to be found,considering that our environmental protection agencies bark is worst that their bite -multi- billion $ companies get set fines of a few million dollars and it is shoveled under the carpet ,a few fines is nothing to them and the man cares about nothing except getting itself-RE-ELECTED .BUT THEY CLAIM THEY DID THEIR JOB ,IN WHOSE EYES .tell it to the people who have lost loved ones to their madness.
if you doubt this -LOOK AT B.P`S MESS IN THE GULF. all sea life is now dead and what do you think will happen fine them and have the people try to clean it up for them . this oil is so toxic now after their little additive to clean and separate it that to touch it is to die as it now goes through the skin on contact.. THIS IS FROM A US SPECIALIST ON TOXIC WASTE.CNN.
THE WORST PART b.p. WAS TOLD NOT TO DRILL THERE BY THE SPECIALISTS AND THEY STILL DID ALL IN THE NEED OF GREED.

feed the world good idea but those few who seem to control the world through their world banking system know only 1 thing .gold is their god and nothing else matters to them.
they are the church -the false profits or money lenders and they have been using us all for centuries at their whim and fancy.on the pretense that they are doing gods work.
Christ threw over their money changers in the CHURCH because they are the church and their business is greed.
check out you tube type in knights templer and listen to how they funded them but when they became to rich and powerful the pope had the king of France kill them on Friday the 13th. because the king of France owed the pope millions and he could never pay them back. kill the templers and their debt was paid.

wonder why wars start see above .
WHEN MEN PLAY GOD -GOD HELP US ALL .

reply to post by doctornamtab


Doc,

You are one of the growing few on these boards that actually try to balance the needs of all with a new system. I am in agreement with your system. I support it. I have a very similar project going on attempting to find a balance. The main thing I see is that we need a basic bill of human rights that society revolves around. Everything not necessity based can be on a for-profit scale of production...but life sustaining products should be available to all at no cost. Hell just put the close to 2 million inmates in America to work producing crops indoors. Free food...yeah I think so.

reply to post by picrat


I love the passion but we have to realize that our leaders, especially our political leaders, are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They can't make the necessary changes, like telling BP to go to hell and developing alternative energies, because all the people who work in the oil industry depend on that job to get food. Could you ever imagine a politician telling every oil company employee that their days are numbered and they all need to find new jobs? It can never happen. This is just one example of how our leaders are handcuffed by the demands of work-to-eat culture.

Also, economically, our leaders must continually make profits in the face of moral depravity. Profits come first because everyone in the company needs that job to get access to food and shelter. No profits means no jobs means starving, angry people. Our profit driven economy is what creates the evil. I don't believe our leaders are inherently evil, although most conspiracy theories preach just that. Your enemies have families. I believe our leaders do the best they can with a system that puts political progress in a straightjacket in favor of economic profit. Politicians do not make political decisions, in our economy they must always make the decision that the economy wants. Our leaders are slaves to the institutions even more than we are.

Those poor misguided souls of the 18th century, Adam Smith, John Locke etc, did the best they could. Profits WERE propelling society and there was a seemingly endless amount of minerals, oil, trees and fresh air. It was a system that worked for the times. But times have changed, resources are going scarce and people aren't fulfilled. In fact most people HATE the political-economic system one way or another. We need a system that is updated to present knowledge and present technology. We need to make our institutions work for us, not the other way around.

Birth control is forbidden because it creates more people who have to compete for the same amount of jobs which makes salaries go down. The exploding population is used against us since the more people looking for jobs the less employers have to provide. When people are properly informed as to how their waste, excess and lifestyle contribute to worldwide pollution they realize that more people equals a worse planet. Its all around you - the better the education the less kids people have. Birth control should be free. Our politicians cannot make birth control free because it violates the Christian tradition that America was founded on. Religion and work-to-eat culture handcuff our politicians in very similar ways. Our politicians are slaves to tradition. Politics is not here to change things. I have a whole essay on politics and work-to-eat culture that I'll post later down the line.

Thanks for the thoughts. Keep up the good thinkin.



[edit on 13-7-2010 by doctornamtab]

reply to post by ExPostFacto


If you wanted to PM or email me some of your work I'd be happy to read it and share my thoughts. It sounds really interesting

So we have a system where everyone contributes by following some creative passion which gives back to the system. Hmm, not too many people have a passion for roofing on a 100 degree day, or cleaning toilets in public restrooms...

Maybe I'm a painter. I love to paint houses. Oh, but not when it's hot out. So I only paint when it's not hot, or cold either because I don't like the cold. The guy next door is also a painter but he likes the heat and paints twices as many houses every year as me. Should I get the same amount of food as he does? Maybe we can help to make this fair by basing the amount of food one gets by the number of houses they paint. For every house we paint we get a token, um let's call it a "rollad" that we then can trade for food, cell phones, etc. That sounds fair.

What about people that have no passion or creativity in something productive or useful (I am one of those people)?. So, in our hypothetical world, I would whine that I'm being discriminated against because I have to "work" instead of being creative. So we could set up some kind of fund for people like me, um, a name, let's call it "erafllew". I suspect the line to this office would stretch for miles each and every day. After all, it's so much easier to say "Whenever I do something creative or productive I get a headache." than it is to asphalt a highway when it's 105 degrees out. So, the solution is to reward people for their contributions, give them some motivation. The rollad would work here as well.
The rollad could be traded for things we want to help keep us motivated.

Then we could invent a carrying case for the rollad called a tellaw.

Imagine...

reply to post by Kaiju


You really think you have no passion or creativity to offer the world? I don't believe you.

Besides, if you do think that, if you just want to watch TV and get drunk then its your life to waste, not mine. But with the freedom that comes with free food and shelter you'll realize that society will change and so you will change too.

Also, maybe the guy that paints one house paints it better than the guy who does a sloppy job on two houses. Sure he got more done but it was a bad job and he put no love into it.

One thing about welfare- why is it ok for the CEO of Wal-Mart to take the profits that thousands of his employees earned? One person gets the benefits and profits of thousands of people's labor. Apparently that is ok, even encouraged, but to take that money and spend it on each other, so WE can have food and shelter is frowned upon.

Riddle me that ATS fiscal conservatives.

reply to post by doctornamtab


That is right. The problem is with the system itself. 10 construction workers can build 100 houses a year, 100 construction workers can build a 1000 houses, and 1000 construction workers can build 10,000 houses in a year ( I am just guessing). Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that these people that build houses have to pay for their own house? Why not publicly fund all humanity support services and trades for the benefit of everyone? Why not give these construction workers a nice house right from the start, so they have no bills. Wouldn't they then actively build others a home?

You are right Doc. When our system changes it will be the most rewarding thing to everyone. Some may abhor the concept but the benefits will be felt instantly by those that want to keep the same system. They will no longer owe anything. Their security will be safe. Their home is now theirs, not the states, not to be liquidated through some legal process. True freedom comes when it is yours and it is yours because you are a human being deserving of those thing.

I don't think the OP meant so much for everything to be just given to non-productive people, moreso that we should not have to give our most productive hours 40+ hours a week at a soul crushing job that leaves one no time to procure outside the rat race to procure the necessities of life some other way.

And what about taxes, land taxes, wasted taxpayers money, the price of food, it's, it's, it's like we have to PAY TO EXIST!!!

WHY must we as humans live like this?

I hate the system too, I've got to get up before the birds tommorrow to go out there and bust my butt, so I can pay rich people to provide me with some sort of life.

Yes, this life really blows, I wish it would blow up, or away.

Oh, and another thing, I don't think one human should be able to own more than one acre of land, or at least no more land than a person can use or be productive on, him or her SELF. If you need help with your land, it becomes your helpers land as well.
These people who own acres upon acres of land, are a major problem, tear down the forest, set up shopping malls, or extract mineral or resource wealth to get stinkin' fat rich.
In a fair world, these resources would be shared, there is no reason for land to be treated as a commodity to be bought or sold, or to buy all the land around a lake and keep it for oneself, NO TRESPASSING!
We should all be allowed to reside on a piece of land somewhere and call it our own, tax and rent free.

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY TO EXIST!

Originally posted by Toadmund

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY TO EXIST!

Here! Here! We pay for food, warmth and water. The rich use these needs against us and turn them into debts that we must repay with labor.

We should not have to pay to exist! We should not have to work to exist!

Doc I totally agree with this concept of Free Labor. S + F for you sir!

Some may find it frightening or unsustainable, but I disagree. I may not be creative but if I am no longer forced to work a dead-end job I hate to provide basic needs for myself, I could be free to study science, write a book, try to paint, or invent something useful, etc.

And if I fail in any of these endeavors, so what? I still have a roof over my head and food/water in my belly, and at least I tried to contribute to the betterment of mankind as a whole. If nobody has to work just to survive, everybody is free to do what they love.

The US alone produced 13.1 billion bushels of corn in 2009...
http:/www.nass.usda.gov...
That's almost 2 bushels of corn for every man, woman, and child on earth in 2009 according to the US Census Bureau...
http:/en.wikipedia.org...
And that's just the available farmland in the US, imagine the rest of the world... There is no reason whatsoever that anybody should starve to death, and yet 36 million people die each year...
http:/en.wikipedia.org...
End rant.

"If it aint broke dont fix it." Well obviously the system is very broken and needs a major overhaul and I commend you for your insight and contribution to find a solution.

This idea sounds extremely like the Venus Project from the movie Zeitgeist: Addendum. To anybody who hasn't seen it I highly recommend it.

Edit: Finally figured out flag system so I added 1 lol, couldn't see what was right in front of me.

[edit on 23-7-2010 by thov420]

reply to post by ldyserenity


You should have gotten a hundred stars for that post.

Who is going to grow this free food and provide clean free water? Where is this free electricity and lights and heat coming from?... so some here can read, write, and study science.

If I remember correctly, there is till some homestead lands available in some of the western states. Have you considered that for the free land you so desire?

Further, if we all make the same pay or are provided for equally inspite of effort, why should i work any harder than the other guy? Where will innovation come from? Do you want us all to live according to the least common denominator?

What if i want to work harder, smarter, and want more wealth...can I?

reply to post by AlreadyGone


YES!!

Free Labor is meant to be an option. If you want a big house, fancy car and all that then you're still free to pursue it in the marketplace. Free Labor is not forcing you to join it.

Think of Free Labor as a boat that floats on the ocean of the Market. You're free to jump back into the market and try to get the most money for your labor but not everyone wants to do that. Free Labor is simply trying to create a viable, LIVABLE, option for those that don;t have, or dont care to have, the skills and drive to succeed in a cuthroat competitive marketplace. They can then exercise their Free Labor option, prove their contribution to society and move on with their lives.

The market is a road block to happiness for a lot of people. Money and markets do not guarantee happiness and people do not need to be threatened with starvation to motivate them to work.