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THEFT
and it is (properly) illegal. I have taken your property without compensating you properly for it. It is not mine to take; it is only yours to sell.SLAVERY
which is also, properly, illegal. Slavery is simply requiring others to perform work for you without compensation or choice, and requiring any company to provide their product at a price set by you, is, indeed, slavery!
Originally posted by TheRedneck
People, it works very simply: someone, somewhere, sometime started a pharmaceutical company to try and produce drugs to help people. They expected to make money at it; otherwise why would they do it? Starting a company requires a ton of money, unending hassles, and years of work. Anyone who accomplishes such should be compensated for all that, and very well IMHO.
It is a sad fact of human existence that people are unable to see both sides of a situation. This is the reason for wars.
Not to mention that nations provide protection for the intellectual rights of these corporations, often on the tax payers dime, and many other subsides.
These corporations benefit enormously from human society. And not just in the vehicle of profit, but also from our laws, our infrastructure, etc. They can take a cut in profit to return the favor in times of need.
I personally would love to see the corporate form made illegal altogether, and thats another thing to remember, the corporations own society their very lives. We dont have to allow them at all.
Indeed there are two sides to a situation. And you've given one.
Could you clear 57 billion dollars next year, instead of 58 billion, and maybe cut some people a break?
There is the element of human responsibility, ethics, and yes, MORALITY. We are not talking about cars here. We are talking about life saving medications. An area that once embarked upon carries with it enormous responsibilities.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
Also, you seem to think that once the R&D is 'done', the medicines can be made for virtually nothing. Not true; there are plenty of costs associated with manufacturing them, not to mention continuing the R&D to improve them. If there are not, why not just make your own medications and save all that money?
Originally posted by TheRedneck
Whoa, hossy! The public also benefits from the corporations! Or do you not think that having access to the drugs you 'need' is a benefit?
Originally posted by TheRedneck
That's it! That is all a 'corporation' is! I should know; I have owned one in the past.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
To do that, you have to have a manufacturer.
Originally posted by TheRedneck
OK, let's address this: say for the sake of argument that you have the power to wave your hand and make corporations illegal. Which ones?
Originally posted by TheRedneck
Bear in mind when answering this that whatever corporation you make illegal, you will also stop production of whatever it is that corporation makes, and remove jobs from the economy based on the size of those corporations...
No, I actually dont think that. I took cost accounting, though I am not a CMA. But because I took cost accounting I also know that you do not have to make a profit on an item to continue making it. In fact, in "line item" cost accounting, it is often advisable to continue to make items that lose money, as long as they are still making enough to cover part of your overhead. There is no one "law" on deciding what to produce or not. "Good will" is also something valuable to a company that is in competition, and they are losing that in this case, though they will sue over this loss in court if someone forces it upon them.
What we are seeing here is the actions of companies that are getting awfully close to monopoly power.
Are you really arguing that without the corporate form we would not have pharmaceuticals? I seriously doubt that. There is demand, there would be supply. Even if we had to have ALL the research done at universitys.
Im proud for you. I studied them, and wrote up articles of incorporation for them.
Anyone who owns stock "Owns one" in a sense, and the logic is flawed. Owning one of anything does not equal a good understanding of the thing (not saying you specifically dont) but the logic you present is just not good. "I own a car there for I understand a car?" "I own a book on physics therefore I understand physics?" I dont think so.
There are lots of things not provided by the free market.
All business forms that entail the creation of an artificial person designed to relieve the human persons of liability for the actions of that business form.
The too big to fail argument?
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
A CEO's duty to a company is, indeed to maximize profit for the OWNERS of the company, the shareholders. Not maximize their own salaries at the expense of the owners. Which is what we see.
People often say it would take an Alien invasion to unite the worlds people against a common enemy. What on Earth do you think corporations are but an alien "life" form, with an agenda hostile to the worlds people? What are we waiting for? Corporations to grow tentacles?
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Originally posted by lpowell0627
Do these CEOs make too much money? The quick answer is yes. But that's more of a gut reaction that says: Look at how much more than me....
Actually for me, it is not a gut reaction based in envy. For me, it is based on an understanding of a CEO's role and duty to a company. A CEO's duty to a company is, indeed to maximize profit for the OWNERS of the company, the shareholders. Not maximize their own salaries at the expense of the owners. Which is what we see.
The justification for their salaries they offer is that they company is paying for quality. Which is crap. There are tons of people who would do just as good a job for a lot less, given the chance.
Should the man go to jail?
It's situation ethics.
How quickly we jumped from Greece to include France and Canada and Ecuador! And how expediently we moved from 2% to 4% to 50%!
I see I was also credited with saying or otherwise implying that "everybody who enters the field of medicine should become a slave".
Do you propose that those in the pharmaceutical profession be required by law to accept lower-than-normal prices for their products/services without the ability to refuse?
As well as being credited with big pharmacy should be "throttled out of existence".
And NO. You cannot compare cars to life saving medications,
whether you like it or not.
Originally posted by dbloch7986
You thoroughly contradicted yourself. First you say the CEOs job is to maximize profits for shareholders, which I am assuming means they want bigger dividends. Yet the CEOs salary is not based on quality and there are people who would do the same job for less. Assuming that the shareholders want to make a profit, why would they continue to employ the CEO if someone else could do the same job for less, thereby maximizing profits so the shareholders can get bigger dividends?
In Kohlberg's empirical studies of individuals throughout their life Kohlberg observed that some had apparently undergone moral stage regression. This could be resolved either by allowing for moral regression or by extending the theory. Kohlberg chose the latter, postulating the existence of sub-stages in which the emerging stage has not yet been fully integrated into the personality.[8] In particular Kohlberg noted a stage 4½ or 4+, a transition from stage four to stage five, that shared characteristics of both.[8] In this stage the individual is disaffected with the arbitrary nature of law and order reasoning; culpability is frequently turned from being defined by society to viewing society itself as culpable. This stage is often mistaken for the moral relativism of stage two, as the individual views those interests of society that conflict with their own as being relatively and morally wrong.[8] Kohlberg noted that this was often observed in students entering college.[8][13]