Row over 'black only' council job ad

America is "Browning" if I am not mistaken. What will we do when those of European ancestry are the minority? and what happens if they are still the ones holding these positions yet are a minority?

Interesting problem...

reply to post by wayno


Let's put it in simple terms that everyone can understand.

Because you abhor racism in the past, you support racism in the present.

Doesn't make much sense, does it.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by ROBL240

 

There is more than an element of truth in what you say.

Look at the lives the people who worked in the pits and the mills had.
To some extent they were just as owned and exploited as slaves were.

However, they didn't get hunted down if they left the mines or mills and then given the lash when forcibly returned to their 'owners'.

Or get lynched simply for being a miner or mill worker.

There are also very important differences.

I would also like to point out that slavery had been a common trade in Africa for centuries long before Europeans ever got involved and when we did nearly every single black person sold into slavery was done so by another black person.

In addition, the UK was at the forefront of eliminating slavery and did so well before many other European countries.

When judging the actions of yesterday it is important to remember and bear in mind the morals of yesterday.

And I would like to point out that neither of the last two points should in anyway be seen as a justification for slavery.
Slavery was, and still is, an abhorent practice which has no place in the here and now, or the future.

No, the Irish were just sent off to fight in the civil war the day they landed on US soil. They were being called all sorts of terrible racist names(believe it or not the whites often called the Irish the "N word") people think whites were only racist towards minorities in those days, truth is they treated most whites as a sub species of human as well. Their are hundreds of documented accounts of people lynching Irishmen. Look what they did to the Chinese as well in those days. Racism has never been only exclusive towards African Americans. To suggest these people had it better? hardly.

I'm not making an excuse in any way for racism towards African Americans, but I'm simply stating it wasn't the only group of people suffering terrible and harsh conditions in those days.

"""Reply to post by Wayno
I do, however, favour tailoring programs and services to individual circumstances and needs; even if sometimes that means paying attention to race, or religion or sexual orientation or whatever kind of way there is to discriminate between people."""


By your own words you are no better then the white people who enslaved the black people. You are a racist my friend. You think special treatment should be given because of something other then being good at what you do. That's exactly what the white people thought who owned slaves. Don't you get that!!!!! We are all equal. No one should be held accountable for something they have never done. Even you my friend!

Wayno you started posting to a thread about racism, only to prove you are no better the the white people who owned slaves and treated them badly. You were never a slave. Your parents weren't slaves. Give it up man. Nobody owes you or any other minority a hand out. Trust me I should know. I am one. Be real man. Why should someones actions 70 - 80 years ago entitle you to anything???


[edit on 3-6-2010 by djbj597922]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by djbj597922]

reply to post by Happyfeet


If there is no such scheme for White colored folks then this thing is wrong in all sense. If any such scheme exist for white colored skin people then it also should be abandoned.

to be honest, this is why this country pisses me off. sorry, but it does. Why spend taxpayers' money putting two MBE people through two years training because of their race when there will be british civilians capable of taking the job on straight away? it's a joke, and a complete waste of the money people work to put into the country.

As for the previous post about blah blah slavery and all that crap. Neither I nor my parents have ever had anything to do with slavery, condoned it. The thought of it sickens me the way minorities used to be treated, but i find it equally sickening that some people still feel the need to try and guilt trip the current generation for issues they weren't even born to experience.

Past is the past, we must remember, learn and move on and not linger to judge.

reply to post by wayno

Nevertheless, I don't see a problem with "occasionally" giving someone an extra help when their circumstances warrant it. I don't really think we are talking about a universal declaration of giving non whites an advantage from here on in as some seem to think. This is a small and temporary measure; thats all. No big deal in my mind.

Would you object to a white person receiving help when the circumstances warrant it? There are many white people in situations where the circumstances would most definitely warrant assistance. Unfortunately, this standard is not applied to white people. That is what makes this racist.

I was not alive in the past. I feel that I have no responsibility to assist so called minorities that suffered in the past. In fact, labeling people minorities due to their racial makeup promotes racism.

Here is something else to consider. How many well off minorities create aid programs for white people that are in financial and educational situations similar to "minorities"?


[edit on 3-6-2010 by My_Reality]

Originally posted by DYepes
Sorry guys you have only really done like 42 years of this. We call it even at somewhere between 150-250 years from now. Dont worry it isnt that big in the geological time scale.

The world is against those of you who go violent, so good luck. Maybe you just figured out that WE surround and outnumber you? Your only one part of the whole, and the punishment will last longer for you to help remember it.

LOL

ROFLcopter

Too bad the whole Israel situation is nearing the brink of global conflict, I kind of want to see even silier actions than these contineu to pass

[manical laughter]

[edit on 6/3/2010 by DYepes]

Spot on, spot on. It's only been 40 years and not good ones at that let it go on for 150 to 250 and call it even. Look, your right it does look and smell like reverse discrimination but quess what, any job that they specifically put for a minority is always going to look like reverse discrimination. Laws like this and Affirmative Action was done to make sure that people of color and women had a fair shake and/or is represented in the work force or in govt.. Lets take a look at the US, before affirmative action it was impossible to get a black male or person of color into colleges or jobs or govt. positions even with the grades or experience because of INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, thats the key institutional racism. You see it was real easy to find an excuse not to hire certain people or to hire certain people, because they wore their resume on their skin. People tend to group to who they feel comfortable with, so it goes without saying that if a person who is white or black or whatever is doing the hiring they tend to hire people they can relate too.

Our nation has tried for years not to truly deal with racism. We say it's okay to hate and be intolerant in this society, but at the same time expect the same individuals to be worldly enough to overlook their views in hiring in marriage etc.. Our own leaders speak out of both sides of their faces saying that they are against intolerance or discrimination but still give the nod and the wink in allowing it to happen. These laws make it where you will be penalized for having these beliefs in the hiring or firing of people of color or from denying them service, believe it or not it still happens. We in our society have people that would love nothing better than to wish that every dark person was extinct, truth. We have people in this society that hide as best as they can there disgust at people of color or even other religious groups. Many of you think that it happened such a long time ago and that now it's not as bad or not happening anymore is complete rubbish. After the civil war it was supposed to be okay for blacks in the south it wasn't, jim crow laws was enacted and passed with glee. Then affirmative action was passed to stop discrimination and people shouted no fair but discrimination still happened but at a lesser degree. Whites in this country believe it or not gamed the system for them and them alone for a long time, thats why you see we have a better legacy in this country than the blacks or hispanics that helped to build this society to but was left out in the proverbial rain and forgotten. Your white your right, your black don't come back was my grandfathers saying a long time ago when he ran his store.

Ask yourself how you would feel if your family and your people where enslaved brutally for a few centuries. Your whipped and humiliated and maimed for anything. For your women to be raped over and over again and having to look her in the eye knowing that your "protector" not only can't do nothing about it but the master had you wait outside while he did it and walked right by smilling. That my dear people can destroy a people if it happens long enough. Then when you have no slavery it starts back up via the share cropper system and not having no say in where you can go or what you can do via jim crow. And while this was going on, what was happening to us whites, we where benefitting from this privilege that we had and had a strong start to build institutions that not only where big in the US but big around the world. Where was the black Rockefeller or Vanderbilt or Carnegie and many others in our turn of the century. They weren't there because the system was gamed to leave out people of color especially blacks and nobody would lend you money and they considered the black and hispanic communities nice pickins. You wonder why minorities (and now whites it seem) are so hateful against police, because for centuries even before the US the army or authority figures where always used to keep THOSE PEOPLE in line for the powerful and the majority. The reason why majority of white people support police in the US is because they see them as the line that protects them from THOSE EVIL DARK PEOPLE.

Police beat up, kill and maim people because they can and if they have a grudge look out. So you have all of this going on and trying to still go on and you think that this job is discrimatory, it's designed to be for a reason. These laws and statues and whatever are designed so that we don't have any future slavery or jim crow or holocaust or whatever. If you don't believe me, just look at the holocaust in the 1940's. A cosmopolitian city that was taken over by fascists via the financial crisis and blaming the "undesirables" to the blue collar workers. You nip this stuff in the bud and stop it and make it impossible to become the extreme of hatred (slavery and genocide), because if not it will come again and again and again. You can't stop someone from feeling what they feel, but you sure can stop them from acting out what they feel and making them pay for it, and thats what these things do.

reply to post by wayno

I highly suspect the motives of some who claim to be totally against racism when it favours their particular agenda.

You actually had a fair debate going until you pulled out the Race Card. In one statement you brought your entire motive to the forefront. If you are White as you say, it is your guilt you are using to drive your opinion.

I, myself am White. Should I leave it there? Probably not with your last post in mind. I married a Black woman. I have nor do I feel any guilt for the things done by people who lived before I was born, who I have no relationship to. I also have no guilt due to actions now by others who happen to share my skin color.

At what point does your guilt stop. How many generations do you propose that White people pay for things they did not do themselves? Your kids? Their kids? Ten more generations down the line?

As long as anyone, of any color, receives special treatment for any reason other than performance or qualifications, their will be no equality. You simply don't create equality by denying it to one group out of retribution and for revenge. Even worse, revenge exacted on an innocent person with no involvement.

The end result of this mentality will just be more hate, more division and more unfairness. You may think you are being progressive and cutting edge through your sacrifice, but in reality you are increasing the divides between us. Eventually, history will repeat as it always does and former victims will become the Bullies. In fact its already happening.

You want to make change that matters? Bridge the divide, don't embrace and extend it.

When I pulled in my families driveway tonight, I got out of my car, popped the back hatch, got my black backpack, and my basket of clothes that were falling out. When i recollected some of the clothes I heard a weird meow. It was the baby of a wildcat. Its momma had just died. This animal who should ahve been afraid of other being came up to my leg and started rubbing me because it needed food. At first I was startled because I used to have dreams of a bobcat chasing me in the dark and all I saw was a nub since the back of its tail was black and it faded into the backdrob of the darkness outside. SO ANYWAYS.... ->

1) This cat was willing to overcome its fears to survive

or

2) This innocent cat is just like i beleive children to be... innoncent and pure in heart and not afraid and no biased.

So it makes me think... why cant humans learn to get along. What is it REALLY that seperates us all? We all eat, we all sleep, we all bleed blood, we all love our families, and there is nothing that we have that the other isnt also capable of having. There are equal rights for jobs and as I've stated in other posts I applied for a job and an internship where a black guy got the job over me and the black girl got the internship over me (this I know because she is my friend and we grew up together (both were twins)). So anyways...

I really want to know. What is it that really seperates us?

I think the anwser points to religion...

IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT HAS SEPERATED HUMANS FOR CENTURIES

example... in the bible anyone who is a phillistine is evil... well if all one is taught is that there own culture is good and the rest are bad then... since their culture is white or really olive, the rest must be evil.

And as far as race is concerned I am 30% American Indian 40% Scottish and 30% other European Cultures... so If my blood doesn't kill my body because of who I came from I dont see any reason why more blood should be shed for stupid racism. I am biased at times against blacks, but I am also biased against whites, asians, and others who feel like harming other people... another reason why I am a criminal justice major.

I wonder how many of you knew that the majority of all criminals are initially racist before entering jail and 40% cant write and a few more can read.... 80% have no education past high school. Interesting ay... That criminals all seem to share one thing... not enough educational training. Interesting also how religions like to keep only the religious in their schools... so that they only share their own philosophy of life... FASCINATING!

[edit on 3-6-2010 by rjmelter]

I find this a very interesting thread and poses issues relevant to all.
It is clearly not a black and white issue,but an issue pertaining to the depth of the reality of equality.
Equality should mean that all human beings are equal.
Dividing the job spectrum along ethnicity is perhaps a dangerous one.
I do not know enough to decide what is right in this particular case.
I remember in Australia a couple of decades ago all the taxi drivers were european ethnicity, now the vast majority are Indian/pakistan/sudanese I wonder where all the Aussie/European cabbies went?
I believe in equality.
And equality should be seen not just said?

Originally posted by bagari
reply to post by wayno

 

Let's put it in simple terms that everyone can understand.

Because you abhor racism in the past, you support racism in the present.

Doesn't make much sense, does it.

Dear Bagari, were it only so simple. The point I have tried to make all along, and a lot of you are missing, is that life just aint that simple. Rules are great, but there are times they must be broken.

I believe that racism is wrong. I also believe that sometimes you just have to acknowledge and make decisions based on race to foster a greater good, like the advancement of opportunity for someone who has suffered on account of racial discrimination -- not in the past, but in the present.

People today are still encumbered by their status of being a visible minority. When America becomes "brown" you will know what that is all about.

Originally posted by wayno
Dear Bagari, were it only so simple. The point I have tried to make all along, and a lot of you are missing, is that life just aint that simple. Rules are great, but there are times they must be broken.

I believe that racism is wrong. I also believe that sometimes you just have to acknowledge and make decisions based on race to foster a greater good, like the advancement of opportunity for someone who has suffered on account of racial discrimination -- not in the past, but in the present.

People today are still encumbered by their status of being a visible minority. When America becomes "brown" you will know what that is all about.

Ok, so as a white male, I have spent my life being discriminated against. As a kid, trying to get a job was next to impossible, because I was white. As a young adult getting education was difficult because I was white and x seats were reserved for non whites.

So I had to try 3 x as hard as anyone else to get the same opportunities because I was white. Now how exactly do I owe anyone else an opportunity that I have to fight tooth and nail to get?

Today, I own my own business, and I get to choose who works for me. I don't hire based on color, I make no exception for nationality or for ethnic diversity. I hire based on the ability to DO THE JOB. If a person can't do the job, they have no place in serving my clients or using my resources.

Sure I might sound a little bitter, but I am really tired of seeing people who cannot speak the local language put into positions where communications essential. Or wondering if that person coming to your aid is qualified, or ethnically diverse.

..Ex

reply to post by wayno

I believe that racism is wrong. I also believe that sometimes you just have to acknowledge and make decisions based on race to foster a greater good, like the advancement of opportunity for someone who has suffered on account of racial discrimination -- not in the past, but in the present.

Mate, with all due respect you're off your head. Making decisions based on race is wrong. And how can offering a position to 'blacks only' be for the greater good... from so many angles it is wrong.

Yeah there is massive discrimination in the present but it is only made worse by actions like these and also made worse by people like yourself seeing racism from one side but not the other.

didnt the msm completely bash Rand Paul for saying that civil rights where worded wrong and that if the government says/tells a bussiness owner who he can or cant have in his own business then they are in essence saying it is a public establishment and not a private establishment and that he wanted the civil rights changed and worded differently? is the msm bashing this council also? for this seems a clear violation and to go against civil rights also. where is jesse jackson? where is al sharpton? this is an outrage.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by J.Smit

 

Of course history is written by the victors and gives a one sided view.

Just as the losers will ignore everything written and have their own alternative version which views them in the right and who but for a bitter twist of fate would have won and the victors are viewed as evil despots and tyrants.

I suspect the truth is usually somewhere in between.

Well said. Take five?

Originally posted by rjmelter


example... in the bible anyone who is a phillistine is evil...

[edit on 3-6-2010 by rjmelter]

In the bible, anyone who was a Phillistine was basically of the Phillistim, who God used in His judgements over Israel when they transgressed against Him. One could also point out that Babylon is said to be the "Mother of Harlots" (symbolic for all forms of sin), yet in Jeremiah 27 God calls the Babylonian king His servant. Not all Phillistim were evil, all people were and are evil until they decide to settle for love, peace and the Way, Truth and Life. God does not favour on account of race, colour, ethnicity, localization, nativity, whatever synonyms there are that have not been used here.... He even cast Israel and Judah to the "heathen" nations and commanded them to submit themselves to those nations, when "His people" followed their own "theology" instead of His commands.

So the trouble is not whether or not the posting goes to an Israelite, an Assyrian, a Jew, an African, an Indian, a Chinese or a Japanese.... The question is, does this person have the qualifications and the skills needed for thie posting, and is this person to be trusted unconditionally in the execution of this duty.

Sadly, see my first post on this topic to see what is a probable future for the UK if this is merely the first of many.

As for religion being the main divisive factor: it has been, is still and shall be until the End of Days, for the past has proven that majority rule is a sure way to go wrong. Simply because the majority want to hear what they want to hear, not what they must hear. It has gone so far that even in some of the "Christian" churches, just mentioning the facts about crime, corruption and the population living in fear, is now said to proof of a lack of faith.

I want to call myself a Christian, i believe in and on God the Father and Son and Holy Spirit, but really, some denominations are actually laughable. Not because of their God, because of how they twist His Word.

Come to think of it, this is pretty much the same thing: In most major denominations, one is not allowed to speak without the necessary qualifications. In some, this actually means, to be rich, to be related or a friend of the "top structure" (God excluded), or even to be a Freemason. Let's halt right here, that is for another thread.

To get to the point: If there is unfair discrimination in the Church, where those who actually know God's Word are silenced and cast out and kept outside, it should have been obvious that this would take not too long before it hit the corporate world. We had it here in S.A., now it seems to be going in the UK, USA, your close.

Had a nice day!

Originally posted by wayno

I believe that racism is wrong. I also believe that sometimes you just have to acknowledge and make decisions based on race to foster a greater good, like the advancement of opportunity for someone who has suffered on account of racial discrimination -- not in the past, but in the present.

That sounds like the blacks here in South Africa complaining about having had no opportunities to study in the "Old S.A." (after burning their schools, because it was built with brick paid for by whites). We had the "previously disadvantageds" burn down a library in one of our towns a few months ago, because they were upset about some governmental stuff.

If you want to complain, you'll find a reason. Even if you have to burn your own institutions to have proof that you have no institutions to get the required learning.

Some more: Commuters destroyed a metro train, because there was some trouble somewhere. Thankfully, TPTB said if that's how they work, they can walk or take taxi's.

Some years ago the taxi companies were at war with each other, drive-by shootings between the taxi's were common occurences. Them Taxi's were banned from the roads for a month, and now things seem to be quite quiet.

Anyone can get a reason to complain if they really, truly want to ride the past until it gets out of its grave and actually gets going. How about getting off that dead horse, cover the grave (or better yet, cremate it so that someone else cannot dig it up at cry about it not riding) and go look for another horse which is not life impaired.

Flogging a dead horse tires one needlessly and turns one into both a fool and a disgrace. Take that as you wish.

Stop talking and do something.