Time Traveler's Dilemma - Is the future fixed?

reply to post by sirnex


Again, you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

You're just quoting stuff on information theory and saying look, this agrees with me.

You sound idiotic.

I ask you this:

WHAT?????

You're truly making yourself look bad because it's obvious you're making it up as you go.

Where has anyone said you can only store high information entropy on bits? LOL

Where has anyone used the term meaningful packets of information?

Where has anyone used the term meaningless packets of bits?

What are packets of bits and what makes them meaningless?

What are packets of information and where are these packets found and what equation governs these packets?

You said this:

What are you talking about? Are you now saying you don't agree with information theory at all?

Where does information theory or Shannon talk about meaningful packets of bits or meaningless chunks of bits?

This is just idiotic.

A bit is a unit of information. So a string of letters is information it's just in a high information entropy state. It's not meaningless chunks of bits LOL.

I can take a string of letters or a pile of rocks and order them in a way to give them a low information entropy state.

Both of these states are bits of information.

You're just quoting stuff and you have no clue what it means.

You quoted this:

Shannon's entropy represents an absolute limit on the best possible lossless compression of any communication, under certain constraints: treating messages to be encoded as a sequence of independent and identically-distributed random variables, Shannon's source coding theorem shows that, in the limit, the average length of the shortest possible representation to encode the messages in a given alphabet is their entropy divided by the logarithm of the number of symbols in the target alphabet.

Idiot,

What this is saying that even abcdefghijklmnop...... are bits of information and when you order these letters they are just in a lower state of entropy because you have reduced uncertainty.

Again, show me in one peer reviewed paper on information theory where they talk about "meaningless chunks of bits."

Like smoke signals.

Smoke contains bits of information and when these bits are turned into signals they go from a high information entropy state to a low on because you have reduced uncertainty.

You say some of the dumbest things like this:

Bits, plural, more than one as in a random string of bits don't contain the information to build a car as is dictated by Shannon entropy. So, your now saying Shannon entropy is pure nonsense?

Yes, random bits contain the information to build a car. Random bits actuall contain more information than ordered bits of information.

For instance, a junky room will contain more information than a clean and ordered room.

This is because the junky room has more probable ways to be ordered than the clean and ordered room. So a junky room is in a high state of entropy will a clean and ordered room is in a low state of entropy.

We then convert energy from the sun in order to do work and order the room.

So the alphabet will contain more information than this sentence. I went to the park.

This is because the alphabet can be ordered in more ways than the sentence can.

Like I said you don't understand what you're talking about.

Why do you think they hide messages in a string of bits? It's because the string of bits contain more information.

Have you ever heard of cryptography?

If I send a message that says Meet Pete at three. This is in a low state of entropy. If I type abmadebyetrtdspage..... The message Meet Pete at three is embedded after every two letters. This is in a high information state of entropy.

If I wanted to hide the message meet pete at 3, I would do so in a string of bits because it contains more information.

There's no such thing as meaningless chunks of Bits. Shannon is talking about uncertainty. A string of bits has more uncertainty than a string of bits that's ordered.

Again, there's no such thing as meaningles chunks of Bits LOL.

Try typing a string of meaningless chunks of bits.

This random string of bits you keep quoting contains information.

fHJZXpVVbuqKbaazaaw

This information is in a high information entropy state but it's not meaningless. It's just information with more uncertainty than the sentence:

I went to the park.

You really don't understand what you're talking about. This is why you keep quoting these things out of context but you can't explain what you're saying. This is because you don't understand it.

Bits and qubits store both high information entropy and low information entropy. There are no meaningless chunks of bits. Again, please type a string of meaningless chunks of bits or show me where anyone in information theory used this silly term LOL.

You still haven't answered any of these questions:

Where did this sentient life gather the information from? Did the information just pop into existence when the sentient being was born? So are you saying the laws of physics stored this information or that the information appeared out of nowhere when the laws of physics accidently made sentient beings that are full of information that just popped into existence? Do sentient beings have the power to move the laws of physics to create information out of nothing? Where do sentient beings get this capacity?

You're really making yourself look bad. I suggest you read up on information theory before you try to debate it and you start making stuff up.

Shannon entropy is a measure of uncertainty not meaningless chunks of bits.

[edit on 19-5-2010 by Matrix Rising]

Your an idiot and I'm getting bored.

Your changing definitions, arguing hypocrisies, living in delusional fantasy lands and lying through your teeth about what I've been saying.

Look, if you want to debate your opinions from your opinionated viewpoint, then I have no desire to participate. If you want to debate using what the science says, then go learn a bit more about the science as it doesn't say a damn thing about the garbage your spouting.

There is nothing in Information theory that states information is unbounded by space and time. Put up, or F off.

Time is illusion. From a POV outside of our universe all of time exists at once. There is no single timeline; each 'dice roll' is a forking in the overall 'worldtree'.

Every second, innumerable infinities split off from the line 'we' have followed.

If our beloved time traveller, went back and killed his grandfather, he would not disappear; he would merely travel forward on the path in which he was not born... a seeming orphan of time. Looked at in another way though, he did not come from 'nowhere' simply another branch.

reply to post by FileZero


I agree with that. This is why I said the time traveler has access to the 4th dimension.

From the 4th dimension, the 3rd dimension would happen in one moment instead of moment to moment like we experience time.

It's like watching a horse race from the stands. From the stands you can see the entire race track but the Jockey has a different point of view which is moment to moment.

Saying that the information to build a car exists inherently in nature is, in my opinion, wrong. Certainly the potential to arrange matter in such a way as to build a car is inherent in matter... but to say information is independent of consciousness, is to say sound exists without a consciousness to hear it. Patterns exist in nature, information is gained from those patterns. At best we could call these patterns 'potential information'.

I personally do not believe in a creator god, or anything, and to imply the the universe is a thinking (or computing) thing is unpalatable to me... though that is simply my opinion. (Although if you are melding science with spirituality I would probably agree with you... though I would say the universe is a construct of consciousness... but that is for another thread I think)

[edit on 22-5-2010 by FileZero]

[edit on 22-5-2010 by FileZero]

[edit on 22-5-2010 by FileZero]

reply to post by FileZero


The above post was for Matrix Rising.

I think the edit was f'n up and thus all the edits... sorry people!

reply to post by FileZero


Thank you!

Unnecessary second line.

perhaps there are other ways of looking at the time travel theories.

Are aspects/entities from our future already behind us in our past?

reply to post by FileZero


You seem to be saying a few things that don't add up or things I never said.

First, I never said information exists independent of consciousness.

Secondly, it seems to me people are letting their personal beliefs get in the way of scientific discovery.

You said:

I personally do not believe in a creator god, or anything, and to imply the the universe is a thinking (or computing) thing is unpalatable to me

You were right in saying this is your personal belief but you're letting your fear of a Creator God get in the way of things that we currently know. So you think this information can be seen as some sort of Creator God and you find yourself in a black hole.

You said:

Patterns exist in nature, information is gained from those patterns. At best we could call these patterns 'potential information'.

Where is this potential information stored? Rather you want to call it potential information, high information entropy or low information entropy it doesn't matter. Information is information and information theory as well as black hole thermodynamics, digital physics and quantum information tell us that this "potential information" that you speak of is stored on bits and qubits.

Where does this information exists? Does it exist in the phantom zone with General Zod LOL.

Where is this "potential information" stored or does it pop into existence? Is there a peer reviewed study or published test that says information is stored on these patterns? I know how information is stored on bits but I have never seen a peer reviewed paper or published test that shows "potential information" exists or doesn't exist or magically appears out of nowhere from patterns.

When you say this information is inherent in matter, what are you speaking of? Is it in atoms, sub atomic particles or quarks? Is it found in the strong, weak, electromagnetics forces or maybe gravity? Maybe this information comes from the vacuum. Is there a potential information theory or is this just a gut feeling?

It's just common sense. Where do you think science and technology comes from? We just reverse engineer the information that's inherent and stored in nature.

Is potential information stored like potential energy? If so where is is stored at? How do you define potential information? What's the opposite of potential information, actual information? Are these definitions made up by you or is there a published paper or tested theory that defines potential information?

Information theory tells us information is information and you can just measure uncertainty and this is called Shannon Entropy. So, adfgtrdsytui would be information in a high information entropy state and the sentence, I watched NBC yesterday, would be a low information entropy state. Both are information it's just one has a higher level of uncertainty than the other.

reply to post by Matrix Rising


One question... do you believe that the universe itself is conscious?
If you do not, then before consciousness arose, any information would exist independently from consciousness.

Also I do not fear a creator god since my view of reality precludes creation or destruction.

As for where this potential information is stored... well; it isn't stored anywhere... the patterns exist as arrangements of objects, ( particles, fields, etc.) and it is only when they are perceived by a consciousness, that information about them is DERIVED.

The more sophisticated the consciousness, the more information can be derived from the same patterns.


... I am starting to get the feeling that I see where you are coming from... but I am unable to agree with your definition of information (I say yours though I am sure you are not the only one to define it thus.)

Have a great day!

Originally posted by Matrix Rising

Say the phone call is from a bill collector who's calling the wrong number.

So the future is predetermined but not fixed. I think we will follow our predetrmined paths most of the time but you have to account for those times when uncertainty will enter the picture.

Our predetermined path is determined by the choices we make before we make them (think about that one for a second).

Welcome to the dice game!

Its a bit tricky getting involved at this late point of the thread yet it is intriguing. I generally agree with your post. Mind you with infinite possibilities and all that why wouldn't I.

I don't think we can time travel as individuals at least not like that depicted in the movie's where you meet up with yourself in the future because you are yourself i.e. there wouldn't be two of you. If you travelled to the future say 1 year you would simply find yourself in a different set of circumstances and not only that the moment you had travelled from would just seam to be a distant memory a year ago.

Also like to add...
The quantum world appears dissimilar to the classical world and scientists are trying to unify them yet perhaps there is no need. If the classical world does not exist it simply be a construct from the quantum world similar to that of a computer program. Most programs consist of a lower layer (the engine) and higher layer (finished product) in fact there is often several layers from the basic machine code to the top level code that generates what we wish. No I am not going to suggest how we all live in a computer but there are some similarities that shouldn't be overlooked.

Here is one, I my be playing an interactive game which obviously has a conclusion or many conclusions but its not determined until I play. Is the universe programmed to have a particular ending or are there many endings.

Thanks for starting the thread - great stuff
Will follow with interest

MJ2

Well, "time travel" is just making light double back on itself so that you can see the photons in their modified state.