Socialism is NOT a bad thing

Every day I see more and more people complaining about Obama's "socialist state". I happen to live in a country often derided by Americans for being socialist (Canada). We've got none of the partisan division or healthcare debate of the US, and I really attribute this to the political system we have in place.

Communism is a flawed system, as the people have no power. Democratic socialism, on the other hand, is one of the best political systems in the world. Deregulation of key institutions by the government in a capitalist state like the US resulted in massive economic disasters, including price gouging, monopolies and the current banking fiasco. In a country where government regulation is still enforced, economic tribulations have far less effect, as the government can stabilize financial institutions by tightening up laws.

Healthcare is another issue. Government-funded health systems result in better care, and less chance of financial ruin for those afflicted with illnesses like cancer and chronic diseases. In a capitalist, insurance-based health system, the poor have no chance to survive illness.

Well, I hope this convinces some of you to stop Socialist-bashing.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by ShadeWolf]

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Every day I see more and more people complaining about Obama's "socialist state". I happen to live in a country often derided by Americans for being socialist (Canada). We've got none of the partisan division or healthcare debate of the US, and I really attribute this to the political system we have in place.

Communism is a flawed system, as the people have no power. Democratic socialism, on the other hand, is one of the best political systems in the world. Deregulation of key institutions by the government in a capitalist state like the US resulted in massive economic disasters, including price gouging, monopolies and the current banking fiasco. In a country where government regulation is still enforced, economic tribulations have far less effect, as the government can stabilize financial institutions by tightening up laws.

Healthcare is another issue. Government-funded health systems result in better care, and less chance of financial ruin for those afflicted with illnesses like cancer and chronic diseases. In a capitalist, insurance-based health system, the poor have no chance to survive illness.

Well, I hope this convinces some of you to stop Socialist-bashing.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by ShadeWolf]

Nice post ShadeWolf, S&F

Now...Be prepared to have your thread invaded by a whole bunch of posters from the country directly to your south calling you a commie pinko among other things...

Likewise in Australia, we have a govenrment funded health care system...We also have a private health care system which is largely funded by health insurance...The ONLY problem with our govt funded system is a lack of funds, partially due to the 30% rebate provided to those who take out private health insurance which is a legacy of the nut-job right wing government we previously had...

The reality is private health care in Australia is only good for elective surgery, illnesses that do not require surgery and things like childbirth...If you have a medical emergency, it is 99.9% likely you will end up in a public hospital...

The argument that govt funded health care provides inferior care and service as opposed to private is a nonsense, in Australia at least...I have experienced both and I much prefer the care and service provided by the govt system...

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
Every day I see more and more people complaining about Obama's "socialist state". I happen to live in a country often derided by Americans for being socialist (Canada). We've got none of the partisan division or healthcare debate of the US, and I really attribute this to the political system we have in place.

Communism is a flawed system, as the people have no power. Democratic socialism, on the other hand, is one of the best political systems in the world. Deregulation of key institutions by the government in a capitalist state like the US resulted in massive economic disasters, including price gouging, monopolies and the current banking fiasco. In a country where government regulation is still enforced, economic tribulations have far less effect, as the government can stabilize financial institutions by tightening up laws.

Healthcare is another issue. Government-funded health systems result in better care, and less chance of financial ruin for those afflicted with illnesses like cancer and chronic diseases. In a capitalist, insurance-based health system, the poor have no chance to survive illness.

Well, I hope this convinces some of you to stop Socialist-bashing.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by ShadeWolf]

You are very misguided my friend. Deregulaiton of key institutions of the market did not lead to the current economic situation. If fact government involvement caused it. What would you say about Fannie Mae??? What would you say of Feddie Mac??? Now what would you say of the Federal Reserve Act??? Government involvement has caused the market to implode. They have tricked you into thinking and BELIEVING that the government had nothing to do with the economic downturn and only government regulaiton will save you.

Also, why do you think that government health care will result in, "better care, and less chance of financial ruin for those afflicted with illnesses like cancer and chronic diseases"? What proof do you have of this? In my opinion, anything that the government touches becomes worse.

Yes, in a capitalist society, the poor have a hard time. However, in a capatalist soiciety, the poor also have a chance to improve their situation. It takes hard work, I know. Some are too lazy to put in the hard hours to learn a skill, cultivate a natural talent, or persue an advanced education. Why is this a reason to turn to socialism?

I am proud to be an American. More importantly, I am proud to be born in a country that gives me so much freedom guarenteed by the Constitution. Please do not take away my freedoms because you feel bad for those who expect the government to take care of them.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Longtimegone]

Whilst I applaud your efforts OP, I believe that you're metaphorically pissing in the wind. The real problem here is the American culture, not the people or 'socialism' or specifically America's understanding of 'socialism'.

A lot of people on this forum and many others wouldn't support genuine socialism even if it came with some kind of guarantee that they'd personally be better off, that their families would be better off and their communities would be better off. It's not their fault though. As much as I despise the fear-mongering that happens on this site, and perpetuation of genuine ignorance on the subject, I can't really blame Americans for this.

Ultimately, they've had decades of 'McCarthyist' propaganda influencing the general American culture. It's engrained now that socialism - whether it's good or bad - is just unAmerican. As long as that view, right or wrong, is so pervading, many will flinch at the merest hint of the word.

Yeah, Democratic Socialism is the bees knees.

Because the elite never screw the regular folk.

Nope everyone is equal under the eyes of the masters. Just so you do not try and get above your station everything will be fine. Go live in your 600 sq ft apartment while I live in my 2000 sq ft home with 12 acres to actually breathe on. Yes, I am an evil capitalist burning untold amounts of carbon, see, I just breathed out all kinds of carbon dioxide.

Obama is going to save the US by installing further fascist/socialist controls. We should rejoice for our chains because it will save the downtrodden and we deserve our chains for destroying the world.

Jeez.

Here a good gif for your thread-

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/33b4bf72bf12.gif[/atsimg]

I am glad you enjoy your system of government. However, I believe you are seriously mistaken about the economic problems, we in the U.S. of A. are, currently, experiencing.

What you and others describe as "de-regulation" has, in fact, been the result of greater government regulation of industry. I'd suggest you delve a little deeper into those actions you have seen as "de-regulation".

Additionally, even though it is now declining, we remain a world, economic super power.

While plenty of pro socialists will gladly label "Americans" as poor ignorant souls who just don't understand what socialism really is, and will excuse it or explain it away with nonsensical tales of "McCarthyism" and the lingering effects of considered propaganda, the simple truth is that many people residing in the United States of America, whether born here or not, fully understand what inalienable rights mean. Further, the "American Dream" is built upon those rights and in particular the right to own property, and here is where the socialist will run afoul with the "Americans" who have no tolerance for the advocates of legal plunder.

The problem that "Americans", at least those who do have a problem with socialism, is that they have a problem with collectivist ideology, and most "Americans" do no view property as theft, yet much of socialist dogma is operates upon that belief. The problem "Americans", (those who abhor socialism) have with socialism is its naivete regarding workers owning the means of production. The means of production in any business is a symbiosis of capital investment and effort, and if the worker has not put any capital investment into the business, then their effort alone is not enough to claim ownership of anything other their their own effort, and they are free, in "America", to contract the best possible price for their effort.

The problem many "Americans" have with socialism is they understand the complete financial futility of the workers position. The best possible strategy for any individual in building a financial portfolio is to build as many income streams as possible. A worker can only rely upon his or her waking hours and the effort they put forth during those hours in exchange for a nominal salary or wage, but an entrepreneur can make money while they're sleeping. A socialist thinks like a worker and a capitalist thinks like a king, why would it be hard to understand that in a country where every person is either king or queen, all political equals, that we would settle for being merely workers, when they can aspire to be so much more?

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
In a capitalist, insurance-based health system, the poor have no chance to survive illness.

Take that up with your god, not me, not the rest of us. In most cases, being poor is a choice, not an excuse to ROB and enslave another individual. So what if someone is wiped out by their bad health? I lost my home because I had no health insurance and ended up with some big medical bills to pay. Then 5 months after that I ended up with another $90k hospital bill. Sucks for me, but at least it didn't suck for you and everyone else. I was wiped out by medical expenses and it's no big deal, I'm happy and healthy and doing just fine .. not as fine as before but still more than fine enough.

This mandatory health care reform is TOTALLY IMMORAL and it goes against my beliefs (call them my religious beliefs if you want, thus I will not be participating). Enslaving one individual for the benefit of another IS IMMORAL and those that support this kind of health care reform are sinners. They should have reformed COSTS .. not who will pay. When you put a law and a gun against someone else's head and demand they do something for you, THAT IS A SIN, and a sin you will pay for with your soul. Those that support this mandatory health care reform are sinners, and there's no ands, ifs, or buts about it. HELP should be voluntary .. NOT mandatory.

This health care reform we have now is a horrible sin against humanity because it enslaves us all. Those that support the enslavement of others for their own personal benefit are committing a sin for which they will eventually have to pay for! I'm not against helping others ... I'm only against those that think they are entitled to decide that I MUST help THEM, and how much I should help THEM. Keep your fingers out of my pockets and I will let you keep your fingers and your life. Those that stick their fingers into my pockets will be sorry. I'm all done being pushed around, and I'm old enough now to not care if I die defending MY FREEDOM to NOT be YOUR SLAVE!

You know what I'm going to do? Until this mandatory health care reform is repealed, I'm going to curse this country every day and hope it crashes and burns so that all the slaves can be set free one day.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Divinorumus]

reply to post by Divinorumus


How dare you say that being poor is a choice? That may the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the time I've spent here.

I agree that socialism is not inherently bad as an idea. But please remember that many socialist systems do not take into account individualism. It is mob rule just like any democracy.

I opposed to mob rule as not all things should be subject to a vote. We're a Constitutional Representative Republic and the Constitution does NOT allow us to practice any form of governance other than a Republican form.

What may work for those in Europe may not work for Americans. Socialism is expensive and while it may seem good when times are good, when time are bad, socialism just means collective suffering. I offer Greece as an example.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
How dare you say that being poor is a choice? That may the single most idiotic statement I've seen in the time I've spent here.

It is too a choice. Show me the law that says you must be poor.

No...I guess it's NOT a "bad thing" if you are on the receiving end of the "socialist" benefits "they" deem you "need?"

For those of us that have done it ALL by the book,paid our bills, acquired some assets ,maintained our health, and in essence done it "the right way' according to the outlines of what USED to pass as a responsible life it's a kick in the teeth any way you slice it.

"Re-distribution of wealth" is absolutely unfair to those of us who made our own way by working hard and continue to be productive and we now have to sit by on a daily and escalating basis while an increasing number of people in this country also sit back and simply hold our their hands...they SHALL be rewarded as will those whose bad-behavior has catapaulted this "system" into it's current state of affairs.

So we've got a small percentage aka the middle class working who are NOW being demanded to continue funding the "utopia of socialism" you describe?

Living in South Texas,I pretty much get to "experience" what this "dream society of cooperation and productivity" ISN'T almost every day,LOL!

Wishing for a better solution for us all but sorry,IMO Socialism isn't it.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


You do NOT have the right to anything you don't work for. Period.
I'm looking at a guy right now in my downtown coffeeshop who mad his choice. I've been poor for a long time, But I chose not to remain so. And here I am.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Socialism strives to ensure that all men remain equal, capitalism enforces the view that is your duty to become more than a mere equal. In a capitalist system there will always be losers, there will always be have-nots and there will never be equality because capitalist are always taking that little bit extra to feather their own nest at the expense of others.

Capitalism also enforces the view that you can only be happy if you have more than those around you, this is the illusion of the "Pursuit of Happiness", that if you be a good little slave you can rise in the ranks, that having more than everyone else is fantasic. Life and Liberty are moot, to make the capitalist think they are free men, you have no liberty and your life is one of perpetual toil because capitalism has told you that is the only way to live. That you are poor and you are a nobody and you might step on who ever it takes to clime that damn ladder of self importance.

In a true socialist society, the people are the government and when they work, they work for themselves and share the profit equally, not pay the minions a pittance and hoard the rest for themselves. Capitalism is just as flawed a system as communism, and like communism it will inevitably collapse in on itself. When all is said and done, capitalism is just a giant pyramid scheme, and the wealth only flows one way.

[edit on 28-3-2010 by m4nchur14n]

reply to post by m4nchur14n


That is precisely what is detested so much about socialism that it would attempt to suppress the creative spirit, the competitive spirit in order to keep people "equal", as opposed to the natural and Constitutional way, which would be equality under the law, and all people are free to be as better or as worse as they see fit. Socialists, in the end, are behavior modification advocates, and capitalists are free market advocates, that are not forced to do anything other than succeed or fail on their own terms.

If Obama is a socialist, than Warren Buffet is Karl Marx.

blogs.wsj.com...

reply to post by ShadeWolf


Canada isn't running a global empire police state.

Canada isn't involved in two wars.

Canada isn't running two gigantic ponzi schemes under an oil backed "reserve" currency.

Socialism always fails and always results in massive violence and death, its just that the violence and death remain hidden behind the curtain of State propaganda.

The people that die from waiting in line for medical services.

The people that die from the lack of medical innovation.

The people that are impoverished because job and income growth are muted.

The loss of productivity and innovation that occurs because incentives are reduced through taxation.

The people that are brutally arrested by the State for tax evasion.

etc.. etc.. etc..

Socialism requires violence and stifles productivity. Socialism is a tool of the rich. The rich LOVE socialism. Socialism is the greatest monopoly game of all time - a total State monopoly.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by m4nchur14n

 

That is precisely what is detested so much about socialism that it would attempt to suppress the creative spirit, the competitive spirit in order to keep people "equal", as opposed to the natural and Constitutional way, which would be equality under the law, and all people are free to be as better or as worse as they see fit. Socialists, in the end, are behavior modification advocates, and capitalists are free market advocates, that are not forced to do anything other than succeed or fail on their own terms.

Actually the same can be said of capitalism. Have noticed that all the joy is being sucked out of life in the west by a plethora of rules, laws and regulations. Young people cannot even party like we used to. Have you noticed that we in the west cannot even chastise our own kids. The state has entered the home.

If Canada is socialist then it has a strong capitalist ethos an even multi national subsidiaries like Alcan which was an independent company up to 2007.

Do not be fooled under true socialism there would be freedom of self expression as we the people would be in office. Ultimately we can only wear on set of clothes at a time. I want more time to enjoy life and not just work like a dog to save and invest and than the the periodic crashes in herent in capitalism wipe out the gains I have made. My Pension fund is linked to the stock market and property values!!!!!

[edit on 28-3-2010 by Tiger5]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


The typical capitalist rhetoric, "socialism will kill innovation". Coming from the mindset of a capitalist where the only reason you do anything is because it is profitable, that's hardly surprising. From the socialist mindset you innovate because it benefits society, not to make the 95th percentile a little fatter.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by ShadeWolf

 

You do NOT have the right to anything you don't work for. Period.

It can not be stated more succinctly than that. To me the idea of waiting for someone's bureaucracy to dole out what they deem I "need", is, without question, unacceptable. In my life, I have experienced successes and failures. What some don't realize, or more likely, chose to ignore, is that success and failure are defined differently, by different people. That, I believe, is part of the individualism that would be absent in socialism.