Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by smyleegrl
When I was in grad school one of my professors pounded a phrase over and over into our heads.

"Correlation does not imply causality."

In other words, just because you can correlate two things does NOT necessarily mean that one causes the other.

You can correlate certain rapes and the clothing worn by the woman.

Doesn't mean that the clothing CAUSED the rape.

Correlation can still indicate a strong relationship between two factors and should not be discarded as "unreliable". What is the correlation between number of hours studied and test results? Studying hard does not cause good test scores but there is a strong correlation showing that those who do study thoroughly do better on tests than those who don't. Also, isn't it literally impossible to establish a cause-and-effect relationship for something like rape? Is it always done the same way by the same people for the same reasons using the same justifications? I think not.

Those who dress scantily do not cause rape to be brought on themselves, but they draw more attention to themselves and thus increase the chance of being picked as targets. Sorry if that angers all you "strong" women out there but you have been told what encourages us to think about sex. We see your choice to dress scantily as a provocation which most of us have learned to control. Being empowered with this knowledge and knowing there are bad men out there who will consider you a target as a result, it is your responsibility to dress more modestly and heed the warnings.

Is this asking too much?

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

View source: Baby raped in South Africa

This article was posted this morning in a local Afrikaans newspasper in South Africa. What is interesting, is that these crimes are never published in the English newspapers and I believe it is done in order to keep it from the International eyes.

Do you think a story like this will also be kept under covers in other western countries?

A rough translation of this story:

Johannesburg - The police in the Eastern Cape Province is investigating the murder of a 5 month old baby and according to the post mortem she was badly raped and brutilised.

"Insp. Wena Theron, a police spokesperson said on Wednesday that the baby died on 12 February.

The post mortem also showed that her ribs were broken. She had stayed on a farm with her parents approximately 60 km from Aberdeen. Her parents work on the farm.

Her mother woke the farmer at approx 03:00 Friday morning and complained that the child was coughing, but when the ambulance arrived, she was already dead - said Theron."

In South Africa there is no public outcry, nobody even talk about it, its just another rape.

I do not want to hijack this thread and if the moderators feel I do, then I sincerely apologise and will make a new thread. I think it is important to also see what is happening in other countries.

In South Africa women are also being raped by policemen. There are so many cases in this regard. The police who are supposed to protect society are actually the criminals.

For example please visit the following links:
28 year old Cop arrested for rape
Knysna woman raped by policeman
Woman raped by police
Cops gang raped woman
Cops rape woman in Rustenburg

There are so many rapes taking place in South Africa, that it is not a matter "if" you are going to get raped but rather "when".

It looks like rape is the favourite leisure activity of criminals and some policemen in South Africa.

reply to post by Ysterlong
O.k. - I know I said I was bowing out of this thread... but, this just makes me want to cry.

me too LadyS.

It is a sad fact that in some cultures, babies are being raped (to death) because of some bizarre notion regarding HIV, I think.

news.bbc.co.uk...

" Tuesday, 11 December, 2001, 12:13 GMT
Baby rapes shock South Africa
Protest against the abuse of women and children
South Africans are left revolted and bewildered

Barnaby Phillips By the BBC's Barnaby Phillips

Two men are due to appear at a court in Johannesburg on Tuesday, accused of raping a five-month-old girl who was discovered covered in blood and in tears.

It is the latest in a series of rapes of baby girls - some of them involving children less than one year-old, which has left South Africans reeling with horror.

Every day the newspapers bring awful revelations: a nine-month-old girl gang-raped by six men; an eight-month-old raped and left by the roadside.


I don't know how to take my anger out. I don't know why he did this

Mother of abused child

Outside the central Johannesburg magistrates' court, 200 demonstrators gathered carrying banners with slogans like "child rapists are not human".

Yet many protesters seem unable to understand why the rapes are happening.

"I don't have an answer, it's inhuman, it's inhuman," one told me.

Rape statistics from South Africa are so shocking as to be almost unbelievable - women's rights activists say one South African is raped every 26 seconds.

It is the young who are particularly vulnerable, with the police saying that more teenagers are raped than any other age group.

But even in a country numbed to horrific events, these cases are bewildering to South Africans, and making them question where their society is heading.

Unearthing truth

It is hardly believable - but some think that this is not new, only that a horrible truth is finally being acknowledged

Alexandria
Township youngsters are among the most vulnerable

"Actually it's not a new phenomenon, it's been something that you hide, you regard it as an embarrassment within the family. But now people have started to talk, they've decided that they've had enough," a woman protester told me.

A typical story reveals the horror.

On a poor Johannesburg estate, a family of eight sleep in one dirty bedroom.

Last week a neighbour seized the nine year old daughter, showed her pornographic magazines and then raped and indecently assaulted her. He gave her a few coins, and said sorry.

The little girl needed extensive surgery - her mother and father are inconsolable.

"I'm very angry, I'm very angry, I don't know how to take my anger out. I don't know why he did this, he used to come here and play with my children..." said the mother.

The father said he wanted to hunt down the rapists.

"How many parents' hearts must be broken?"

He is not alone in his rage.

Last weekend in Soweto a suspected child rapist was stoned to death.

The government is appealing for calm.

Myths

It is also trying to dispel a widespread rumour - that having sex with a virgin cures Aids.

Traditional healers, or witchdoctors, are blamed for spreading this idea, and encouraging child rape.

A sociologist, Lisa Vetton, draws a parallel with Europe, when child prostitution was rampant

"At that time venereal disease like Aids today was incurable. If you had gonorrhea or syphilis you were going to die. And exactly the same myth emerged, that sex with a virgin is going to cure you - so it seems like a very old response whenever sex and death are combined. Suddenly women - girls - get attributed with magical healing powers".

Absolutely disgusting. And so ignorant!

Are sickoes who are incapable of addressing the article linked in the OP coming out now ?


Are you insane ?


Did the article linked in the OP even HINT at 'baby rape' ?

Or do you enjoy lingering on such topics ?


The article linked in the OP refers to young women who go out dressed like wannabe porn stars. They drink until they're off their faces. They set out to attract male attention because they're teases or they're horny

When they have grubby sex in an alley, some of them choose later to cry 'rape'

The women polled were of the opinion that these acts are not 'rape proper' but were largely the responsibility of the 'women' involved


What sort of 'person' would bandy around a topic as obscene as the rape of a child in order to justify fear of the truth re: the article linked in the OP ?

Dock9
Your topic has been played out. It's done. So, either the thread dries up or it expands to include other VERY IMPORTANT issues worth discussing and I, for one, would consider this ONE OF THOSE ISSUES. So, chill and stop preaching to us. It's getting old.

reply to post by LadySkadi


Agreed. I've pretty much had enough of listening to stories about "sluty" girls calling rape. It happens, we know it, its been discussed in ALOT of detail. Time to move on.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by MarlboroRedCowgirl]

i have been attacked twice in my lifetime when i was younger 9 and when i was 21 both sexual assaults, i have never ever gotten over them and i think im just trying to deal with it in other ways now, it makes me sick that people would think its a woman's fault what about a child is that my fault?,no.
its sexual predators that are sick.

Originally posted by Dock9
Are sickoes who are incapable of addressing the article linked in the OP coming out now ?
Are you insane ?
Did the article linked in the OP even HINT at 'baby rape' ?
Or do you enjoy lingering on such topics ?

To address your questions in your personal attack against me:

I believe it is important to see that a rapist is an animal and it is not the sexy clothes or drunk babes that entice them to commit their sadistic acts. I believe the example of the rape of a baby or a frail old lady just proofs that fact. So, in my opinion it is absolutely relevant to the OP. I do not believe that women are responsible for rape, although some of them might think they are. These facts must be brought into the open and it does not help to sanatize the issue. Rape is bad, cruel, saddistic, vulger, and inhumane.

I am not insane.

No the article did not hint to baby rape, but the question was if the person being raped was partly responsible for this. I think this contribution clearly explains that it has nothing to do with sexyness, clothes, etc. The rapist is an animal and we must understand that.

I do not enjoy lingering on such topics, but that does not mean that it is not supposed to be brought into the open. If you look at this thread - you can see that there is a real concern from normal, sane people about the issue of rape. Rape of a sexy woman, old lady or baby is still rape.

My advice to you is to start working on your agression. If you read something that upsets you, calm down think it over properly. In the heat of the moment one tends to become irrational.

Originally posted by Ysterlong
I believe it is important to see that a rapist is an animal and it is not the sexy clothes or drunk babes that entice them to commit their sadistic acts. I believe the example of the rape of a baby or a frail old lady just proofs that fact. So, in my opinion it is absolutely relevant to the OP. I do not believe that women are responsible for rape, although some of them might think they are. These facts must be brought into the open and it does not help to sanatize the issue. Rape is bad, cruel, saddistic, vulger, and inhumane.

I am not insane.

No the article did not hint to baby rape, but the question was if the person being raped was partly responsible for this. I think this contribution clearly explains that it has nothing to do with sexyness, clothes, etc. The rapist is an animal and we must understand that.

I do not enjoy lingering on such topics, but that does not mean that it is not supposed to be brought into the open. If you look at this thread - you can see that there is a real concern from normal, sane people about the issue of rape. Rape of a sexy woman, old lady or baby is still rape.

My advice to you is to start working on your agression. If you read something that upsets you, calm down think it over properly. In the heat of the moment one tends to become irrational.

I understand and respect your views. But I have to disagree with what you have stated.

Unfortunately you are using South Africa as an example of why you think dress code has nothing to do with rape in countries halfway across the world. SA has one of the highest crime rates in the world and as you said not much is done about crime in general.

It would be like me saying "well murder is so widespread in SA that a murder in Darwin (Australian City) can't be correlated with the drug industry because so many murders not involving the drug industry take place in a country on the other side of the world."

Can you see the problem with your argument?

The fact is most Western countries do not experience the same crime rate as SA and to use data based on that country when it is clearly an extreme example compared to others is illogical.

It is also illogical that other people are relying on the ridiculous notion that because babies are victims of rape that means women have no responsibility to ensure they are careful about how they dress and who they drink with. Reality states that women who dress provocatively draw more attention to themselves and increase the chance they will receive attention from bad people. This does not make them responsible for any harm they might suffer, but it is being extremely oblivious to dangers that are well known and preventable.

[edit on 18/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Just execute the rapists they are not worth keeping around,they have a pennance to pay to humanity for the echos of pain that will reverberate throughout the lives of the MANY people who are affected by this crime against humanity,you see we all belong to each other ,you hurt one and all reply to you and take your life,end of sad story,fewer tears and humanitarian justice.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


We are in the TOP TEN for high rape percentage.

www.nationmaster.com...

"# 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
# 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
# 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
# 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
# 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
# 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
# 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
"

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
We are in the TOP TEN for high rape percentage.

www.nationmaster.com...

"# 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
# 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
# 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
# 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
# 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
# 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
# 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

Those statistics are absolute garbage. There is obviously no distinction being made between claims, convictions and false claims that turned out false. Western countries treat rape seriously which is why so many more claims would be reported and thus included in this survey.

So we are to believe that per capita Australia and Canada have higher percentages of rape victims than Zimbabwe?

P.S.: I am from Australia.

[edit on 18/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost


Unfortunately you are using South Africa as an example of why...

while i don't really agree with bringing the hell that is South Africa to the topic due to clutter and the fact that this thread is already overloaded, there's something one can learn from it.


it's a social thing and the differences between countries are most likely the result of cultural differences. these traditions could of course be changed, it's hard but definitely doable. realistically, if the notion displayed in the poll in question is correct, there is little reason to believe rape will ever be effectively curtailed - with dire consequences for everyone, not just women. At the risk of repeating myself, violence manifests itself in many ways and as long as next to nobody recognizes the threat, effective opposition cannot and will not develop, step by step handing the entire world to the criminals.

Originally posted by juniperberry
Either through not partaking in dangerous activities or (and) through learning self-defense.

These two things will likely ensure that the occurrences will drop significantly.

Anyone (women OR men) who does neither is just looking for trouble..

What do you mean by 'dangerous activities'? Going outside? Wearing less than a bhurka? Self defense lol!

If so many women do believe that women may in some way responsible for their own rape then that in itself is shocking. It is akin to saying that a bank clerk killed in a robbery is responsible for his own death because he 'chose' to work in a bank. He knew the risks but ignored them.

I also find it shocking that many still believe that rapes are mainly caused by type of clothing the victim wears.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
What concessions have women made towards men in this regard? This request by men is pretty reasonable: don't wear clothes you know will set off biological responses in men that make them think more about sex. Women have a responsibility too to be aware of how men function and operate. Men have made so many concessions, it seems fair women should do the same.

A biological response to sexual arousal is NOT rape.

Men have made concessions?

Yes deciding that rape within marriage should be made illegal was a nice thing to do.. letting us have the vote was a nice thing to do. How sweet.. they did not HAVE to do that. You also said that over the last 100 years men have been taught not to hit women yet domestic violence figures are still through the roof. Rape is also violence and happens because violence against women is acceptable under "certain circumstance".

She talked back and got smacked for it.. or she wore the wrong thing and got raped for it. It's the same primitive mindset.

Not assaulting women is not making a concession. Thats like saying black americans should be grateful they aren't slaves anymore and that their freedom was the result of someone "making a concession".

They should not have been made slaves in the first place.

It's like tieing up a wild animal and acting like you are doing the animal a favour by giving it a long leash.

It has nothing to do with not being able to resist the sexual impulse because it is an act of VIOLENCE. Why do they do it? BECAUSE THEY CAN and they damn well know they will get away with it. Murder is an act of violence as well and I have no doubt that there would be more murders if people thought they could get away with it.

I know of someone who got stabbed FIFTEEN TIMES during a home burglary.. his attacker still has not been caught. Was it his own fault for having things "worth stealing" in his home? Of course not.. he actually said to take what they wanted yet he got stabbed anyway because the attacker ENJOYED the feeling of plunging a knife into another human being's chest. Same logic but with one major difference.

If a woman has "goods worth stealing" and is violently raped is it her own fault for having them on show?

NO BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOODS THEY ARE HER BODY PARTS.

..and maybe he had a nice chest too but does that mean he deserved to be stabbed repeatively? Should he have covered up to remove temptation? Would that have made a difference? A sadist would get the same thrill out of murder as they would with rape.. otherwise serial killers would just skip their pre murder rape rituals.

When people argue dressing sexy makes men rape they are affectively admitting that they themselves see women as sexual commodities and not human beings with the right to the same liberties as men. They refuse to understand that rape is NOT an act of sex but an act of VIOLENCE.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
The fact is most Western countries do not experience the same crime rate as SA and to use data based on that country when it is clearly an extreme example compared to others is illogical.

It is also illogical that other people are relying on the ridiculous notion that because babies are victims of rape that means women have no responsibility to ensure they are careful about how they dress and who they drink with. Reality states that women who dress provocatively draw more attention to themselves and increase the chance they will receive attention from bad people. This does not make them responsible for any harm they might suffer, but it is being extremely oblivious to dangers that are well known and preventable.

I also respect your viewpoint, but I have to disagree with you on this.

The crime rate in South Africa is one of the highest in the world, due to a disfunctional justice and police system as well as a disfunctional society. But I believe that the psyche and mind of the rapist is internationally the same - it does not matter in which country he stays or from which culture he originates. In a country like South Africa the chances that the rapists get caught and being brought to book, is a lot slimmer than in other more "civilised" countries.

That provides the opportunitity to be much more adventurous in their exploits, but it boils down to the same type of sick mind. Due to their freedom because of lack of sanction, it is so much easier for them to live up to the desires of their sick minds. On the other hand the same conditions also provide us with the opportunity to really see what drive them to do these horrendous acts.

I believe the problem is that we think rape is sex or making love. Rape has a very small sexual drive component involved in the process. It is all about power and domination. Obviously, a drunk women with little resistance will be an easy target, but sex is not the main force driving the rapist.

If a woman does not consent to sex, there is no way you can blame her, just because she was not dressed "properly". The average male person in the world - even in South Africa, will not force himself sexually on a drunk or scantily dressed woman.

In South Africa even 80 and 90 year old ladies are raped and even men are raped in front of their families. Rape has nothing to do with sex.

Again, I think it is good to look at South Africa as an example, just because it is so extreme - it provides valuable information about the real psyche of a rapist.

I am late to the conversation, please bear with me.

If a woman is raped, she needs to report it. It's not her fault she was raped. It is the fault of the person who raped her.

I don't care how slutty of a dress you wear, it's no excuse to rape a woman. No excuse whatsoever. You can keep it in your pants.

reply to post by Ysterlong
The two times I was forced to have sex, one was all about power and domination (ex-husband), and the other was opportunity (wrong place, wrong time, alcohol involved). I'm not going to call it rape just to have someone else say it wasn't. I know what it was. I didn't report it. Most women don't.