"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"

Mmm ... I'm not sure, does the NRA even use that anymore?

It's silly though, I mean I'm pretty sure that even those who use the slogan know it's a logical fallacy. It's an awesome and quite clever marketing slogan if you think about it, and it does exactly what it's supposed to do. Namely oversimplify and reduce what is a complex issue to an easily deliverable little box.

Of course never mind that no one who is anti gun has ever said that a gun woke up one morning, had flap jacks, and went postal ... but hey, it sounds relevant right?

There we go ... guns don't kill people, slogans do!
(that pencil pic makes sense now)

I'm sure we'd all love to live in an ideal world without crime or corruption, in which case there would be nothing to protect ourselves from, so no need for guns (For this comment only, I'm going to ignore the existence of animal predators, because we as humans have the potential to be cunning enough to outsmart or protect ourselves in other ways. I will also ignore the need to hunt, because humans can survive just fine without eating animals, if they want to.). Unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world yet. Humanity has been told over and over again how naturally evil humans are. Many of us actually believe that now, although I don't think it's true. It's that whole "tell a lie loud enough and long enough and people will believe it" (Hitler??) thing. And with believing that we are evil by nature, we nurture it, we start to hate members of our own species (how foolish we are!), we start killing each other (in war and civilian murder and as a result of political/military corruption). This is the state of our world today. We can't take away guns from the responsible person who just wants to protect his friends/family/assets. We can't do that, because humanity will never grow up if we do. The crime and corruption will still exist, so the "bad guys" will still have guns to do what they will with. The "good guys" will be unarmed. Humanity won't grow, we won't evolve, we will never find peace, because the "good guys" will all be killed off.

Until there is a way to remove ALL GUNS everywhere, then we shouldn't take guns away from the good folks out there who don't believe the lies about mankind being inherently evil.

Originally posted by cushycrux

Do you have a bow or sword at home? Comeon!

Yes, actually, I do. And I also have my service rifle at home. And you know what? I have not killed anybody ever. And I don't have any intention of ever doing it.

And your stats about suicides with guns are misleading... how many people kill themselves by other means? Including jumping right in front of a train and leaving the locomotive driver with an emotional trauma?

Those numbers have to be seen in the right context to be of any value, and I see no context here.

Please Think About The Combination: GUN & DEPRESSION

How ignorant are you people here on this board, incredible!!

Why are people, that live in other countries whose laws prohibit them from owning and operating firearms, always seem to deem it necessary that they should interfere in the private affairs of US citizens, or other countries?

Care about the US people that much huh? Is that before or after you call everyone in America a fat slob?

Firearm violence is not a simple issue, neither is anything else. Hypothetically speaking, firearms in the US are banned forever, starting tomorrow. You think guns will go away? Nope. You know how much violence, false arrests, small-town revolutions, etc.. would occur?

You know, more people die from idiots who shouldn't have driver licenses, and that happens in Every country, but society as a whole deemed that the carnage, fatalities, suffering and trauma was a necessary sacrifice for the travel convenience.

You people are being played, hard.

Originally posted by cushycrux
Please Think About The Combination: GUN & DEPRESSION

How ignorant are you people here on this board, incredible!!

Depression, a whole 'nother can of worms that needs serious attention. The pills you take for depression, or all other pharmaceuticals for that matter, are more likely to harm you, way more than a phantom gun statistic will.

Originally posted by SyphonX
Why are people, that live in other countries whose laws prohibit them from owning and operating firearms, always seem to deem it necessary that they should interfere in the private affairs of US citizens, or other countries?

Well, to be fair, we've been known to meddle ourselves in others' counties affairs once or twice.

Having said that, I agree that there is a cultural context to the discussion. Having lived around the world I would propose that there's no need or justification to arm the populace in nations where guns aren't prevalent. But ... the US is different. It is truly part and parcel of the cultural fabric AND it is non-pragmatic to think that guns will disappear even if they are outlawed for some reason.

In that context, and under the old 'showing up at a gunfight with a spoon' mantra, the issue is a self sustaining one for the US

For the record, I'm actually about to purchase my first weapon next week for home defense ...after consultation with trusted and knowledgeable friends, apparently what I want is a Mossberg 500. Though, and this is a personal choice, I'm going to get non-lethal ammunition.


[edit on 30 Jan 2010 by schrodingers dog]

Originally posted by cushycrux
Please Think About The Combination: GUN & DEPRESSION

How ignorant are you people here on this board, incredible!!

Depression is bad in almost any combination.
And being a fellow Swiss, I'd like to point out that it's not necessary to call people ignorant and thus show your lack of diplomatic skill

GUNS DON"T KILL ANYTHING!!!

Bullets do.

Get it right.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


Definitely, I should have a made a remark on the fact that the US is the biggest meddler of all. I'm certainly not proud of this fact, but there it is.

Although, having said that, I still think it does bear fruit for this topic, because no matter where the discussion leads, it always ends up at the point where, "The rest of the world is different, so why not you?" questions and statements, etc.

Let us not forget how huge the United States actually is, and that it is not a union comprised of many countries, such as Europe. Let's not forget how incredibly open the US borders are, whether legal or illegal. Canada bears some size resemblance to the US, but Canada has an (est.) 33 million population, whilst the United States has an (est.) 308.5 million.

Think on that for a moment.

The (est.) population for all of Europe is roughly 730 million. Some 50 sovereign nations populate it's breadth.

The United States will always be the top offender for gun violence, but this is the nature of the US. The US isn't Europe, and it never will be. The US is populated with 50 states under One sovereign nation. It very much is a chaotic piece of land, and always will be. People are very much entitled and able to leave the United States, should they not be comfortable with that fact, and nobody is forced to migrate to the US either.



[edit on 30-1-2010 by SyphonX]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Bananarama
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Why exactly is it a stupid statement?
But the truth is.. It's true! Did the gun kill anybody itself? Did it fall from a tree, grow ammunition and start shooting randomly?

It’s a stupid statement because guns can kill by themselves minus any human intent to kill something. You ever hear of an accidental discharge?

A properly designed and manufactured firearm cannot fire by itself. Modern firearms have multiple redundant safety mechanisms that require the trigger to be pulled in order to discharge. Some 100-year old designs incorporate grip safeties that only unblock the firing pin when someone has a firm grip on the weapon, even with the manual safety off.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Bananarama
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Why exactly is it a stupid statement?
But the truth is.. It's true! Did the gun kill anybody itself? Did it fall from a tree, grow ammunition and start shooting randomly?

It’s a stupid statement because guns can kill by themselves minus any human intent to kill something. You ever hear of an accidental discharge?

Would that gun have an AD if it wasnt for some form of human action?

No, it wouldnt.

Originally posted by Bananarama
Maybe when a bunch of red necks who want nothing more than to go out and shoot something that moves say it, it seems like they are hiding behind the statement. I don't think that was by accident, BTW.

Strangely enough, it's NOT REDNECKS who give firearms such a crappy reputation. The most extreme acts of violence are committed by LIBERALS and MUSLIMS, over and over again, both with guns and with other weapons.

The DC snipers, for example, were hardcore black racist Muslims who were out to "kill 6 whities a day" for 30 days. That was their stated goal; JFK's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, was a Lefty Communist; Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, was a Lefty eco-terrorist university professor, a big fan of Al Gore; John Lennon's murderer, Mark David Chapman, was a Liberal geek; and etc.

Come to think of it, I can't recall any "rednecks" who have committed heinous crimes — it's always the liberals who are screwing things up for the rest of us.

— Doc Velocity





[edit on 1/30/2010 by Doc Velocity]

reply to post by Doc Velocity

Strangely enough, it's NOT REDNECKS who give firearms such a crappy reputation. The most extreme acts of violence are committed by LIBERALS and MUSLIMS, over and over again, both with guns and with other weapons.

Way to go! Fight generalization with more generalization and sweeping statements.

Seems to me that it's not rednecks, muslims, liberals or even postal workers that give firearms a 'crappy reputation.' It's screwed up individuals.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Strangely enough, it's NOT REDNECKS who give firearms such a crappy reputation. The most extreme acts of violence are committed by LIBERALS and MUSLIMS, over and over again, both with guns and with other weapons.

Yeah bloody Liberals.... they're the cause of all the problems... with their equality and fairness and peace.... Grrrrrr bloody hippies.

And yeah.... the Muslims.... they're just the worst huh...with their religious intolerance?
/sarc

Come to think of it, I can't recall any "rednecks" who have committed heinous crimes — it's always the liberals who are screwing things up for the rest of us.

— Doc Velocity

Yeah i agree..... the KKK were just doing a service right?

:shk: :shk:





[edit on 30/1/10 by blupblup]

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Oh wow you really do take your avatar seriously don't you?

Guns enhance the ability and feasibility of killing, they are the most effective, and most used, device to kill and commit suicide, and stats show that.

Guns make it easier to do what most would think twice about doing close up using another weapon such as a knife. So you cannot compare a gun as a weapon against knives or swords etc. With a gun you can easily kill multiple people, with a knife not so easy. If you think it is then you live in fantasy TV land.

Ever hear of a drive by stabbing?

BTW was Scott Roeder a liberal? You are so ridiculously biased you don't even make sense.

[edit on 1/30/2010 by ANOK]

Originally posted by Kandinsky
Way to go! Fight generalization with more generalization and sweeping statements.

And why not? We've seen the Liberal propaganda machine heap sweeping accusations against "rednecks" and capitalists and conservatives and gunowners — against anybody who stands against the Liberal propaganda machine — and they make these accusations seemingly unchallenged and with impunity.

When anyone attempts to corner the real perpetrators of violence, we are labeled "rednecks" and "racists" and "haters"... Which is a transparent and juvenile strategy, and yet it goes unchallenged.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by ANOK
Guns enhance the ability and feasibility of killing, they are the most effective, and most used, device to kill and commit suicide, and stats show that.

You're either a liar or an imbecile, and I'm betting on both.

Show me the statistics proving that firearms are the weapons most used to kill.

You can't show me such statistics, because they don't exist — except, perhaps, in your own mind. Which is the case with most liberals who announce these stupid LIES. You're in good company, though... The Nazis founded their entire Third Reich on The Big Lie.

— Doc Velocity






[edit on 1/30/2010 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by ANOK
Ever hear of a drive by stabbing?

Drive-by shootings are not widespread and are not a common cause of death. They are a rarity.

However, that's exactly the sort of extreme LIES employed by liberals in advancing their preposterous arguments. C'mon, tell me another. Tell me that the number one cause of child death is by gunfire — another incredibly popular yet incredibly untrue bit of liberal propaganda.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Show me the statistics proving that firearms are the weapons most used to kill.

Okayz ...

Weapons
Of those incidents in which the murder weapon was specified, 70.3 percent of the homicides that occurred in 2004 were committed with firearms. Of those, 77.9 percent involved handguns, 5.4 percent involved shotguns, and 4.2 percent involved rifles. Approximately 12.4 of the murders were committed with other types or unspecified types of firearms. Knives or cutting instruments were used in 14.1 percent of the murders; personal weapons, such as hands, fists, and feet, were used in 7.0 percent of murders, and blunt objects (i.e., clubs, hammers, etc.) were used in 5.0 percent of the homicides. Other weapons, such as poison, explosives, narcotics, etc., were used in 3.6 percent of the murders. (Based on Table 2.9.) www.fbi.gov...

You can't show me such statistics, because they don't exist — except, perhaps, in your own mind. Which is the case with most liberals who announce these stupid LIES. You're in good company, though... The Nazis founded their entire Third Reich on The Big Lie.

Ooooh boy ...