Want to know how primitive man would draw advanced technology he saw?

reply to post by arbiture


Reply to Doc Velocity; Come to think of it, how do I know you have any spiritual or religous views what so ever? You tell me. Perform rituals like going to church, temple, etc? Assume I know nothing of what this means, no knowledge or exposure to our culture, how would I make sense of what you do or say? It requires an under standing of culture before you can have some understanding of some ones religion.

I also think in some ways ancient/primitive people, for example cultures with out writing were a lot smarter then given credit for. Even today, the oral history of some peoples is staggering, far superior to our own. Ad to that I would have a hard time living in Minnesota where I am with out central heat in the winter. (Not to mention I like indoor toilets that flush...) Last, technology has saved my life more then once. My point is I would not sell primitive people short, be it ability, abstract, or religous thought.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Nventual

 

Ok. I guess I did miss the point. But the sailing vessels are unambiguously sailing vessels, steamship an unambiguous steamship. Not much room for interpretation unlike truly ancient shamanistic drawings of fantastical creatures.

???? I'm an aborigine, I dont know your word or technology, I dont know "steam or sail" I'm amazed, it's not only ambiguous its mysterious.
(always pouncing geez louise)
To discount records left by anyone that has been here at whatever time is also discounting ourselves. The arrogance of dominance by humans is so hard to comprehend, collectively we know a little, very very little.
The OP is very interesting very nice , thank you S>F>

reply to post by Deaf Alien


I see what people are saying about these possibly being drawings of aliens but what I saw was drawings of spirits as in some cultures the aura around the head symbolises wisdom and these kind of look how we would draw a ghost

I was referring to the orange image with white faces on it



[edit on 11-1-2010 by TheNewKid]

[edit on 11-1-2010 by TheNewKid]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
But, even given all this fanciful imagery, we have no proof that very early Man was particularly "spiritual"... And, no, the Neanderthal habit of burying corpses with flowers is not necessarily a spiritual ritual. More than likely, flowers were used to cover the stench of decay.

— Doc Velocity

More than likely? That appears to be a very poor hypothesis. If it is more than likely show it to me, show this is the consensus view of science right now. If it's "more than likely" it should be easy.

Seems to me there certainly issome evidence - though perhaps not proof - that early man had spiritual tendencies.

I don't think that these ancestors of ours were incapable of portraying exactly what they wanted... However, I think that as long as one of them with the know how to paint showed others how to do it, or others simply observed the "skilled" one, that the others would do what they could to imitate.

If the "others" saw whatever it is they subsequently painted, then they would attempt to make it look good, but might fail... I know that if I tried to paint something I see all the time, like people, I couldn't make it look very good.

Another idea: If a random person (from back then, I mean" saw, for the sake of this thread, a UFO or extraterrestrial, and couldn't paint it, then they would describe to a painter what it is they saw. I doubt that any of those painters were skilled enough, or knew which questions to ask, to make a sketch that would be the equivelant of a police sketch today, accounting for pictures that aren't exact representations.

I, personally, don't know what to make of these pictures. I'm not a person of blind faith, usually, but knowing how many possibilities there are for life elsewhere, I'm inclined to believe there are other "beings" out there. Whether they've been here or not, I don't see why not, but I also don't understand why they would evade us so much. If they're so superior, they have nothing to fear from us. If they don't want to interfere with us, well, I still think they could hover in plain view and be okay. Don't safari animals know we're there most of the time, looking straight at the camera, but not really caring unless we get too close? Well, to avoid rambling too much, I'll end it there. I'm still waiting to see a reply to something I post, so...

That's just proof that something fishy was going on a couple of thousand years ago. Good find.

The context is totally different.

Do you think these modern day primitives saw these boats only once or twice?

I'm sure they see them on a daily basis. Or, at the very least a couple times a year. in fact, they know just where to find them. All they have to do is travel to where they reside. Which is why there is so much detail to the drawings.

It's totally different if someone is talking about a carving or painting of an "ancient astronaut" because, if it were actually meant to be such a thing, more than likely the artists couldn't just travel to where the astronauts park there space vehicles and realize that he totally carved the hull of the space craft wrong.

Originally posted by mbkennel
I believe that professional artists today could certainly accomplish the same.

So do I. I'm one of them. My statement was a challenge to modern artists to attempt such illustrations. They would discover, very quickly, that ancient cave renderings were NOT "simplistic" by any stretch of the imagination. They were sophisticated renderings, even masterpieces by today's standards.

It is also a big stretch however to assume that everything which was rendered was in fact intended as direct representation, as it is also known for certain that aboriginal artists, exactly as modern and classical artists also rendered symbolically as well.

Now, see, HOW can we "know for certain" the motivations of primitive people tens of thousands of years ago? We can barely understand the motivations of modern civilization. My point was and remains that early Man may not have been motivated by spiritual fantasies. There is no way we can arrive at such a conclusion by means of examination of very ancient artifacts, constructs and artistic renderings — we can only project our modern spirituality onto those artifacts, constructs and renderings.

No: if they had seen a flying disc they would be able to paint a specific and detailed picture of it.

Who among us today can render a "detailed" UFO, based on actual observed details? I've seen the things myself, and I can imagine all sorts of details; but, if I was rendering it based strictly on observation, the best I — or anyone — could do would be a simple circle, or an oval, or domed saucer silhouette.

To my knowledge, we have no "detailed" renderings of UFOs that are based strictly on observation. The majority of our renderings today are fanciful cartoons, not based on observation.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Namaste
reply to post by Phage

 

I think what the OP is saying is; maybe they drew those fantastical creatures because they literaly saw them.

That is precisely what the point of the thread ....

And why not......they were not drawing pictures of stuff they dreamed....so these aliens were also not dreamed up....this is an interesting confirmation of aliens roaming around.

Originally posted by Namaste
I think what the OP is saying is; maybe they drew those fantastical creatures because they literaly saw them.

Heres an interesting Native American drawing from the Mississippian Period - theres not much to go on but its certainly an intriguing image.

NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIFACT SHOWS REPTILE HUMANOID

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/05b0ada67efa.jpg[/atsimg]

A bizarre find: A 14-by-13-inch slab that dates from the Mississippian Period bears images resembling upright reptilian organisms.


For the past few years, archaeologist Tracy Brown has combed flea markets and collector shows across Tennessee and the Southeast, hoping to stumble upon the owner of a small stone slab first discovered in east Nashville 40 years ago.

On the rock, a 14-by-13-inch slab that dates from the Mississippian Period (1000-1450 A.D.), is an artistic image that the ancient inhabitants of a mound site etched into its surface with primitive stone tools.

But the artifact is coveted more for what is not etched onto its face than what is.

"It's unique because it is the only slab of six found that does not have clear Southeastern Ceremonial Complex symbols on it," Brown said.

www.surfingtheapocalypse.net...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

This is a general reply to some points raised by too many to go down each.

My thing is that if they did see these things commonly when they drew them... where are the humans? Only interesting things got drawn down, IE, technology.

And As I said, I do not subscribe to the humanoid alien model. I believe that space is too diverse and planets too diverse, AND evolution is too diverse to even allow the remote possibility of humanoid alien life forms. I believe that aliens would be more logical. Humans are a fluke of nature because of our ability to exponentially do what animals and smarter animals do linearly. We advance, it's what we do. Logic dictates that if ufos were drawn eons ago, but they haven't changed a bit up to modern times, that these people are not capable of human level thoughts in terms of imagination. Slab one in our society, and they would be equal to us in every way, but they would probably just be really good copy pasters, like our Neanderthal buddies. This would explain their rumored million year old civilization, as it would take that long to get that far on that mentality. This also explains Earth's importance, as it would be the source of scientific research into getting our traits into their species. The universe should be teeming with life, and a lot of intelligent life as well, yet we've yet to be directly contacted, when our signals into space would make us a flare gun for contact. Signals die 1 light year out, but even higher levels of static coming from an ordinary solar system should merit investigation. I believe that an advanced civilization exists near us and placed a protectorate quarantine on the planet, hording the value of our genes to their own research.

Of course, this goes down a path of hypotheticals. If this civilization did manage to crack our code and splice it to their own, it would be like putting cave men in control of a galactic empire. The repercussions are vast, because as our own history shows, primitive peoples conquering more advanced ones leads to a dark age. IE, the Mycenaean were pretty advanced, but when their slaves revolted, the slaves could not maintain their level of civilization, and so the Greek dark ages began. So this would make our world isolated. The first civilization to crack our code would be the first civilization to have an advantage over its competitors, and we all know what human nature is to do to weaker peoples. Once they were done there, they would abuse their power, and collapse their society, because they would have no historic context to take their positions into value for. This explains why our planet seems so cut off, and would also explain the logic that the universe should be filled with life, but the fact that we have yet to directly contact them. The fact would be we are in a galactic dark age, one that we caused without doing anything. Just by simply existing.





Now, back on topic. I am sorry to call them primitive. I too have learned much from primitive cultures culturally and spiritually. Enough to write a book on. I always say advanced and primitive in the sense of technological advancements or lack there of.

Thus I believe we should look for technology on the walls of structures and caves, not beings. Humans will always draw gods and entities in their own image, and thus any alien would be drawn as a human form of whatever they are. Early man saw the wisdom of birds, and put their heads on a man's body. They loved the utility of the bull, and so put it on a man's body. They loved the sun, for it gave life, as well as the water. Both were seen in human form. Any alien contact would be on what early man valued most: technology. If they met intelligent squid, they would draw them in a human form, IE, a few Hindu gods we know of. The point was raised that if they did contact them, it would not be long term probably. Thus, missing details would be filled in with human contemporary references. Intelligent squid people to the Indians would have to be something with many arms, intelligence, but not human, yet equal to humans in mental abilities. Likewise, and as expected, a Hindu god matches that description.






The reptilian one above me is most interesting, as the Mississippi valley civilization didn't exactly have easy access to reptilian references. I am reminded of the stargate episode of Enemy Mine, and it's linked episodes.


Primitive man did have religion, and did have highly detailed love of art. Abstract art was not that much of an idea based on the fact that thinking beyond the physical world would not be common, as stated with the natives being so connected with nature.

Just some opinions for you all to consider.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
I do not subscribe to the humanoid alien model. I believe that space is too diverse and planets too diverse, AND evolution is too diverse to even allow the remote possibility of humanoid alien life forms.

Theres a relevant article about that below by an expert in chemical evolution:

"E.T. May Look Just Like Us."

"Forget all those fanciful Hollywood notions about the bizarre appearance of extra-terrestrial beings. E.T., if he or she exists, actually may look much like an ordinary human being. That is the conclusion of an international authority on the origins of life who has reported the first scientific evidence that life may be fundamentally similar throughout the universe.

'When we do land on a planet some where some day, don't be surprised if somebody walks up to shake your hand.' Dr. Cyril Ponnamperuma said."

Dr. Cyril Ponnamperuma was director of the University of Maryland's Laboratory of Chemical Evolution. The lab has pioneered research on how life might have originated from spontaneous chemical reactions among chemicals that existed on earth billions of years ago.
www.hyper.net...

Cheers.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Perhaps ancient man would draw something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d57e98d417ba.png[/atsimg]

[edit on 1/11/2010 by WhatTheory]

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Perhaps ancient man would draw something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d57e98d417ba.png[/atsimg]

Well, exactly, and there are many actual ancient cave illustrations that are at least that detailed, if utterly inexplicable.

Of course, we may be projecting our modern spirituality onto such illustrations, and we may be projecting our modern understanding of technology onto them, as well. This does not mean that ancient man was preoccupied with spirituality or technology, only that we are.

Here's one of my favorite "mistaken identity" renderings from ancient Egypt:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6b3a3a722d56.jpeg[/atsimg]

Recognize that one? This is the much-debated Pharaoh's Helicopter carving, discovered in an ancient Egyptian tomb some years ago. Pretty startling imagery — looks like an Apache attack helicopter in the upper left and possibly some sort of streamlined aircraft in the center-right. UFO and Time-Travel enthusiasts have been enthralled with this carving for years.

However, it is only debated by UFO and Time-Travel enthusiasts, NOT by Egyptologists and those who know how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs.

To an Egyptologist, this carving is actually a thrice recycled bit of hieroglyphography (if there is such a word). That is to say, the original carving was recycled and new hieroglyphs added over the old — this appears to have been done multiple times, creating 3 distinct layers of hieroglyphs. Undoubtedly, the older layers were painted over to send them into the background, and the newer layers received their own paint jobs to make them distinct in the foreground.

You might liken this to taking an old Coca Cola billboard and covering it up with messaging for different products; as time passes, however, the newer layers are worn away, exposing bits and pieces of the old Coca Cola messaging, resulting in an oddly-mixed billboard for two or more different products.

Same thing with the Pharaoh's Helicopter carving. These are multiple layers of hieroglyphs that have lost their respective paint jobs over the millennia, leaving only the oddly-merged carving.

When a modern reader of Egyptian hieroglyphs examines the Pharaoh's Helicopter, he sees something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7fb74fb7a4ef.jpg[/atsimg]

Each color represents a different layer of hieroglyphic writing (different layers of messaging). Remove the colors, and the carvings merge into one another, creating some really bizarre imagery. The experts, however, can still read the different, overlapping and partially obliterated messages.

It is only our modern recognition of modern technology that causes us to make modern associations, thus creating the illusion of Pharaoh's Helicopter in our own minds.

Possibly this is a similar illusion we see when examining far older cave paintings. We project our modern associations onto ancient renderings, and voila...ancient UFOs.

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Nventual

Originally posted by heyo

Originally posted by TheoOne

www.abovetopsecret.com...
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/239897f07ae7.jpg[/atsimg]
This one looks pretty interesting.

To me it looks like perhaps it was an unfinished drawing and the black 'eyes' could be parts of egyptian persons heads. It just seems out of place and the drawing seems a different style to the other glyphs and seems unfinished like it was meant to be something else or has worn away from what it originally was.

The photo posted after you is hard to say what it is as it's not posted in any context. It could be anything really, not necessarily extraterrestrial.

I do agree with you, they can draw to some extent as what they saw. And if thats the case what they drew on said picture of an alien on an egyptian wall is correct. They carved/drew another species of being on a wall preceding the humans. I've been looking everywhere other than the site it was posted from to see this image and I still haven't found it. If anybody has an archeological site that has this wall carving on it, let me know. Because the answer may be so simple that we don't want to believe it. And that is in some distant past both humans and aliens existed on this planet.

Astounding. This really gets you down in the core.

Confirmation?

Has allways been for me, now it seems its gaining more ground.

[edit on 11-1-2010 by DarkCyrus]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Perhaps ancient man would draw something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d57e98d417ba.png[/atsimg]

Well, exactly, and there are many actual ancient cave illustrations that are at least that detailed, if utterly inexplicable.

Of course, we may be projecting our modern spirituality onto such illustrations, and we may be projecting our modern understanding of technology onto them, as well. This does not mean that ancient man was preoccupied with spirituality or technology, only that we are.

Here's one of my favorite "mistaken identity" renderings from ancient Egypt:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6b3a3a722d56.jpeg[/atsimg]

Recognize that one? This is the much-debated Pharaoh's Helicopter carving, discovered in an ancient Egyptian tomb some years ago. Pretty startling imagery — looks like an Apache attack helicopter in the upper left and possibly some sort of streamlined aircraft in the center-right. UFO and Time-Travel enthusiasts have been enthralled with this carving for years.

However, it is only debated by UFO and Time-Travel enthusiasts, NOT by Egyptologists and those who know how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs.

To an Egyptologist, this carving is actually a thrice recycled bit of hieroglyphography (if there is such a word). That is to say, the original carving was recycled and new hieroglyphs added over the old — this appears to have been done multiple times, creating 3 distinct layers of hieroglyphs. Undoubtedly, the older layers were painted over to send them into the background, and the newer layers received their own paint jobs to make them distinct in the foreground.

You might liken this to taking an old Coca Cola billboard and covering it up with messaging for different products; as time passes, however, the newer layers are worn away, exposing bits and pieces of the old Coca Cola messaging, resulting in an oddly-mixed billboard for two or more different products.

Same thing with the Pharaoh's Helicopter carving. These are multiple layers of hieroglyphs that have lost their respective paint jobs over the millennia, leaving only the oddly-merged carving.

When a modern reader of Egyptian hieroglyphs examines the Pharaoh's Helicopter, he sees something like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7fb74fb7a4ef.jpg[/atsimg]

Each color represents a different layer of hieroglyphic writing (different layers of messaging). Remove the colors, and the carvings merge into one another, creating some really bizarre imagery. The experts, however, can still read the different, overlapping and partially obliterated messages.

It is only our modern recognition of modern technology that causes us to make modern associations, thus creating the illusion of Pharaoh's Helicopter in our own minds.

Possibly this is a similar illusion we see when examining far older cave paintings. We project our modern associations onto ancient renderings, and voila...ancient UFOs.

— Doc Velocity

I hate to break it to you, but those where depiction drawings of something instead of someone tagging over another carving (which by itself would be hard without damaging the original). Also if they didn't like what was on there, they could have easily chipped that layer off and put up a new carving. I checked out this website that has alot of Egyptian glyphs of numbers and expressions etc., and nothing comes close to what was put up there.

www.uponreflection.co.uk...

They are still here now, we see that in our own culture.

Makes you wonder if they are traveling in multiple time lines in our history and past.

Also makes you wonder what exactly they were and are doing in our time line and those past time lines.





[edit on 11-1-2010 by DarkCyrus]

Originally posted by hoghead cheese
I hate to break it to you, but those where depiction drawings of something instead of someone tagging over another carving (which by itself would be hard without damaging the original). Also if they didn't like what was on there, they could have easily chipped that layer off and put up a new carving. I checked out this website that has alot of Egyptian glyphs of numbers and expressions etc., and nothing comes close to what was put up there.

I didn't make this up, it's been verified by Egyptologists, those who can discern distinctly different messages. You have to remember that there are also different ages of Egyptian pictographic and hieroglyphic writing. You'll have to refer to many different sources of ancient Egyptian writing, not just one.

Egyptologists will readily tell you that such pictographs were commonly recycled in just the manner I've described.

No expert in the field of Egyptology or Egyptian pictographs or Egyptian hieroglyphs has EVER confirmed that Pharaoh's Helicopter is an actual depiction of a helicopter-like object.

The only folks who are certain that it is a "helicopter" are UFO and Time-Travel enthusiasts...and they are not experts in Egyptology.

— Doc Velocity