No sin in sex

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Sex is awesome and I indulge in it regularly with my girlfriend. The more sex, the better IMHO.

And if your girlfriend was regularly "indulging" in sex with several other partners behind your back, how would you feel about that?

More is better?

Hell, no, you'd be angry as hell, and perhaps a little frightened of catching a deadly disease. You might even consider her actions a sin — against you and your relationship, at least, if not against God.

— Doc Velocity

reply to post by Doc Velocity


And yet still no verse supporting your theory.

I've given you plenty of verses.

So, in your "interpretation" of Sodom and Gomorra, the absence of passages about sex specifically means that sex — or perversion — played no part in the destruction of those cities.

YOU, or more specifically Christians in general, CLAIMED that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is because of sexual perversions. The ABSENCE of passages goes against that theory.

It's an invention by Christians.

In your argument, the absence of evidence equates to evidence, yes? Just as you claim my argument is based on a lack of evidence.

NO. The claim was made by people who think that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were sexual perversions. I've shown all the verses that listed the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah and NONE mentioned sexual sins. Where did they get that idea from?

Bring the evidence or sit down.

Why DID God smite Sodom and Gomorra? Neither of us has answered the question.

I DID!!!! Read my posts!

reply to post by Doc Velocity


Your creating a subtext that is not apparent in my post so I wont be dragged into your silly, silly argument nor will I cheapen the love between my girlfriend and I to humor your scenario.

Perhaps you have been burned by such an act and still harbor resentment?

Nuff said!


IRM

[edit on 6/1/10 by InfaRedMan]

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by InfaRedMan

 

The sad fact is that they are so afraid of god's punishment that they keep sex to a minimum. I can tell you horror stories I've heard about some of those people.

Oh yeah!

We all know about those... especially within the clergy itself!

IRM

I have lived in "open" relationships before and usually the reason for splitting up isn't multiple sex partners; it's money!

But now as I'm maturing monogamy is preferable but not mandatory.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
And yet still no verse supporting your theory. I've given you plenty of verses.

No. You haven't.

You've cited about as many Biblical references to Sodom and Gomorra as I cited — I cited Jude, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Leviticus. In those passages, we find information regarding the definition of "abominations" — and one of the Hebrew definitions of "abomination" is certainly homosexuality.

Where did you get that idea that homosexuality is not included among the Hebrew "abominations"?

Can you prove that "abominations" does not mean homosexuality?

My evidence is as strong or stronger than yours, and I refuse to sit down for an atheist or a God-hater or any other malcontent on a crusade to assail Christianity.

Your whole attack on my "theory" is based on one sentence in my original post. Meaning that you're looking for a trigger to assail Christianity. I don't buy your argument. It's well-practiced, but groundless.


— Doc Velocity

reply to post by sleeper


Sleeper!
I really appreciate this thread! I fully acknowledge that sex isn't something bad, something we should be ashamed of. I have my own personal morals and those might now be those of another...so who am I to say that I'm right. I think that as long as we keep to our moral compass then we will be fine, even if its having sex! Thanks again for this thread!!

reply to post by Doc Velocity

In those passages, we find information regarding the definition of "abominations" — and one of the Hebrew definitions of "abomination" is certainly homosexuality.

I never mentioned homosexuality.

We could go on all night debating what the term abomination means in the Bible.

Your whole attack on my "theory" is based on one sentence in my original post.

That is where it STARTED.

The whole premise (about homosexuality or any other "sexual perversions") is based on the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, we have to start from there.

The term "Sodomite" wasn't even invented until recently!

Again, it's an invention.

Meaning that you're looking for a trigger to assail Christianity. I don't buy your argument. It's well-practiced, but groundless.

How is it an assault against Christianity?

I am tired of people referring to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as an argument against sexual perversions (or more specifically homosexuality) when they have no basis for the argument.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Your creating a subtext that is not apparent in my post so I wont be dragged into your silly, silly argument nor will I cheapen the love between my girlfriend and I to humor your scenario.

You can't answer me because to do so would reveal a moral contradiction in your "more sex is better" position.

Which means you're a hypocrite.

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Perhaps you have been burned by such an act and still harbor resentment?

Sonny-boy, in my life I've hammered more of that ass than you ever will, with multiple partners, married women, my boss's daughters, my brothers' wives, my girlfriend's sisters, my buddy's fiancés, you name it.

I've committed just about every abomination, sexual and otherwise, except for homosexuality and bestiality — although a few of my conquests could rightly be called coyotes.

It wasn't until I was about 33 that I finally realized what a thin, dangerous line I was walking, and I cleaned up my act — fortunately without contracting any STDs or being shot in somebody's bedroom.

But focking close.

That's why I kind of resent a tag-team of God-haters or whatever you are attempting to use the Bible to disprove the Bible itself. I've run into your types before, and I can tell you that I'm definitely a worse person than you are, but I don't take out my petty anger on God.



— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

You can't answer me because to do so would reveal a moral contradiction in your "more sex is better" position.

Which means you're a hypocrite.

LOL! No your transferring your own guilt upon others. Again, you've created your own subtext. Your the only one talking about sex outside of a relationship... whereas I celebrate loving sex within a relationship.

Sonny-boy, in my life I've hammered more of that ass than you ever will, with multiple partners, married women, my boss's daughters, my brothers' wives, my girlfriend's sisters, my buddy's fiancés, you name it.

Firstly, don't call me sonny-boy. I'm post 40 thanks... As far as hammering more woman that me... well I'm not about to get in a immature pissing contest with you for the simple fact that it's puerile and tasteless.

I don't need to brag of conquest. Whereas you... you wreak of low self esteem!

I've committed just about every abomination, sexual and otherwise, except for homosexuality and bestiality — although a few of my conquests could rightly be called coyotes.

Perhaps we should award you a medal for shagging anything that walks?

That's why I kind of resent a tag-team of God-haters or whatever you are attempting to use the Bible to disprove the Bible itself.

— Doc Velocity

An imagined enemy no less! I guess that makes you feel important as a soldier of god and self righteousness. Doc.. you need to get that self esteem in order mate!

I'm part of no such tag-team. I'm an individual with my own point of view. I suggest you quit while your still behind!

Anyway... Doc V. I do admire some of your posts on the board.. but in this sense, where you pretend to' know' me, based on your own sordid history - you're entirely wrong!

I'm done with this particular argument. It's fruitless and a waste of my time. There are far more interesting threads and opponents.

IRM

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
Your the only one talking about sex outside of a relationship... whereas I celebrate loving sex within a relationship.

And yet this thread is not entitled "Loving Sex & Loving Relationships," it's about the perception of sex or certain sexual practices as "sin"

My original post pertained to the origins of promiscuous sexuality as a "sin"... I was and am dead on topic.

It's when I mentioned Sodom & Gomorra in one brief sentence that the topic was derailed by others into a discussion of Biblical passages. I'm not going to participate in that, either, because it's the ten-millionth time I've been sucked into a discussion of Biblical verse with an atheist, and I don't like atheists. I was an atheist of the worst kind for many years — a verse-quoting God-hater — and I don't like revisiting that place. Atheism is a dull and ignorant and uneducated way of thinking, which closes the mind to higher thoughts.



— Doc Velocity

reply to post by Doc Velocity

It's when I mentioned Sodom & Gomorra in one brief sentence that the topic was derailed by others into a discussion of Biblical passages. I'm not going to participate in that, either, because it's the ten-millionth time I've been sucked into a discussion of Biblical verse with an atheist, and I don't like atheists. I was an atheist of the worst kind for many years — a verse-quoting God-hater — and I don't like revisiting that place. Atheism is a dull and ignorant and uneducated way of thinking, which closes the mind to higher thoughts.

Whatever you get the idea that I was an atheist? I don't remember ever mentioning that.

Again.... I said that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is the BASIS of their hatred of sex. The rest mean nothing. It all comes down to that story. I don't care if it's just one line or 10000 pages of posts. It's all comes down to that story!

You (actually anybody) have not provided ONE SINGLE proof that the story was about "sexual perversions" or homosexuality. Did you know that the idea that it was about homosexuality and sodomity was invented just recently? Like maybe 100-200 years ago?

I am still waiting for the verses. I'm still waiting for "proof". I can take interpretations and we can discuss from there.

YOU, or any other Christians believing in this, made the claim. It's time for you all to come up with evidence.

Put up or sit down.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
So, we're even, back to Square One... Why DID God smite Sodom and Gomorra? Neither of us has answered the question.

allow me to try

deaf alien quoted Ezekiel:
( i added the number references )

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Ezekiel 16:49-50

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread (1), and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy(2).

And they were haughty(3), and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

clarified with Strong's concordance:

(1)bread is:
H3899
lechem
lekh'·em
bread, food, meat, shewbread, loaves, shewbread, shewbread, victuals, eat, feast, fruit, provision

(2)needy is:
H34
'ebyown
ev·yōn'
needy, poor, beggar, poor man

(3)haughty is:
H1361
gabahh
gä·vah'
exalt, ... up, haughty, higher, high, above, height, proud, upward

-----------------

the reason Sodom and Gomorrah got vaporized is because the fortunate ones refused to take care of the less fortunate ones!

even though they could see the needs of the poor and needy all around, they did not share with them what they had.

------------------

they did not love each other as neighbors:

Leviticus 19:18 (King James Version)

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

or even strangers:

Leviticus 19:34 (King James Version)

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

!!
GOD warned them!
he took away EVERYTHING, absolutely everything, from the population because they did not do each other right

it had nothing to do with sex!!

...the reason the people were begging after the angel's in Lot's house has to do with ancient ideas about deification and having sex with the angels

but remember!
that wasn't the reason for the destruction - it was just the reason for the sudden departure.

Looking at Genesis, I don't see where God says specifically he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were homosexuals, but he destroys them because they were wicked in general.

In Genesis 19:5-7, it says:

5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Thus, as the verses say, some homosexuals wanted to have gay sex with Lot's visitors, but I don't actually see that homosexuality was the specific sin that these cities were destroyed for. (the word 'know' in this sense means they want to know them in a sexual way)

The sin of homosexuality is called sodomy because of this incident.

reply to post by queenannie38

the reason Sodom and Gomorrah got vaporized is because the fortunate ones refused to take care of the less fortunate ones!

THANK YOU!!!

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
The sin of homosexuality is called sodomy because of this incident.

well, since that is only valid in the context of the bible, and there is no word "sodomy" in the bible...that's N/A

from thefreedictionary.com:

sod·om·y (sd-m) n. Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal, especially anal intercourse or bestiality.

from wiki:

In current usage, the term is particularly used in law. Sodomy laws prohibiting such sexual activity have been a standard feature of codes of sexual morality in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic civilisations (see below) as well as many other cultures[citation needed]. In the various criminal codes of United States of America, the term "sodomy" has generally been replaced by "Deviant sexual intercourse", which is precisely defined by statute. These laws have been challenged and have sometimes been found unconstitutional or have been replaced with different legislation.

nothing implies homosexuality!

reply to post by Deaf Alien


I don't like to see you ragging on Doc to provide verses...so I will do so in his defense.

Genesis 19:4-5 confirms the verdict as to the sexual sin of Sodom and its end (RSV):

"But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them (NIV: can have sex with them , NJB: can have intercourse with them)."


In response, Lot refuses to give his guests to the inhabitants of Sodom, and instead offers them his two virgin daughters to "do to them whatever you like."[Gen 19:8]NASB

As Doc pointed out, to "know" one, is interpreted as "to have intercourse with". Also, why would Lot offer his VIRGIN daughters, if it had nothing to do with sexual intercourse?

Sodom...SodomY...

Furthermore, in Jeremiah 23:14, Jeremiah 49:17-18, Jeremiah 50:39-40 and Lamentations 4:6 the prophet associates Sodom and Gomorrah with adultery and lies.

Judges 19 also has a similar recount as to that of Sodom and Gomorrah(many think it's actually the same story but that's a whole different topic). In the account in Judges the wicked men were appeased with the female concubine. This proves they were not condemned for homosexuality. They were after sex for power or rape. If you read further you'll learn that the tribe of Benjamin was almost totally destroyed because of this incident.

I Corinthians 1:4 states that our bodies belong to our mates, not just us. It is written from a spirit of equality, where both spouses are to serve one another, rather than one controlling the other. For one spouse to force the other into sexual behaviors without consent is abusive.

In Genesis, we are commanded to "be fruitful and multiply". Sex is clearly something we are intended to do, but as with all things, a good act can be used for evil in hands that possess evil intentions.

And one final note: there are many laws restricting sexual acts. The most popular - "Thou shalt not commit adultery" found in Exodus. Followed by regulations found in Leviticus 18...and Deuteronomy 23 hits on prostitution...

Respectfully
A2D

Thanks for this thread.. This is a subject that hardly ever gets spoken of in christian circles, and when does, is done with silly giggles or reproving looks... I for one am not dead from the neck down like I feel a lot of christians are and LOVE sex! Obviously in a commited relationship, preferably marriage, but when christians are just dating, you cannot tell me there is no hanky panky on the sly lol.. Ive seen it too many times!! Also you have those who get that desperate, they are married within 3 dates just so they can get their freak on... And its all done in secret because sex is naughty and the church makes us feel guilty because of it... Truth is, most of the patriarchs in the bible were lusty fellows; Jacob got his freak on with at least 4 women with the approval of his wives; bet you guys would love that!! David had a gazzilion women, and the only way they could tell if he was dead or not was by putting a young lady in bed with him... Solomon broke the world record for women... And the list goes on..
It IS interesting however that the first thing adam and eve did after eating the "forbidden fruit" was to cover their gibbly bits because they "saw they were naked." However being honest right now, and if it makes me a hypocrite then so be it... But there is NO-WAY i'm not getting my freak on with the guy I love married or not!! After all, its not the ceramony that makes you married but the "two becoming one flesh" in G-ds eyes.. Yeshua said that Himself!!

reply to post by Selahobed


It's important to remember to keep LUST in check though. Lust, at its core, is a very selfish and self-pleasing feeling.

Sex in and of itself is not condemned at all. But, as with all things, one must keep it under wraps. One can't let it get so out of control that they see a man/woman and immediately think of intercourse. Biblical sex is about becoming one flesh...it's about unity...we can't reach that unity if we're selfish about it and only want to please ourselves...That's when sex becomes sinful....

For me personally, I just cannot have intercourse until I am at a place in a relationship when I feel it is appropriate...

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20).

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Genesis 19:4-5 confirms the verdict as to the sexual sin of Sodom and its end (RSV):

that passage does NOT say that is why Sodom and Gomorrah are set for destruction!

it's already been decided at that point