Genetics: Does DNA also encode mathematical values of lengths, distances and angles ?

reply to post by tauristercus


Great Theory! Having studied Architecture, I have myself often wondered if there was a blue print of angles and measurements which governed the shape of living things.

Some would say it's Gods hand, but even gods hand would need some consistant format to replicate life time and time again. Take the diameter and graduale reduction of a artery for example... what tells the cells to align in this way??

I think complex body fluids, temp, energies, gravitational influence and even dark matter have a hand in shaping all things considered.

I'm feeling some quantum mechanics going on in biological terms instead of physics.

Originally posted by tgidkp
the first several iterations of embryonic mitosis develop into the heart of the creature. the HEART is created first.

Whack your biology prof with a book. Skin comes first, amniotic cavity, then the neural canal, then the blood starts forming, then the brain begins developing and basic mouth structures... THEN the heart shows up.
virtualhumanembryo.lsuhsc.edu...

i am curious, and would like to get more information about what information might be encoded onto the heartbeat, if anyone has any? it seems possible that the cellular structures are following the command of the heart, which acts as the construction engineer. perhaps the heartbeat forms an aetherical template.

No, the basic structures are there by the time the heart starts beating.

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa
I just wanted to expand on a few previous posts, for the benefit of the OP and anyone else interested.

Concentration gradients of hormones and growth factors can cause both locational and temporal coordinates within a developing organism, which affect cell division and specialisation, as well as cellular death. Additionally, though each cell contains the same genome, the methylation pattern varies from cell type to cell type.

Massive snippage, but thank you for putting into a nice form the things I was going to go into!

As ZonyDostupa said, while there are patterns, there are an infinite number of variations -- fitting a math rule to it only works rather weakly and rather generally. There are statistical patterns, but these aren't the sort of simple patterns that you can do with just a few years of math (I know a biostatistican who worked on the Human Genome project and who does data mining for certain types of genes. )

Good thread. I've had a passing interest in understanding where all of this extra data about physical morphology was laid out in the human genome.

Seeing as how this is ATS I'm sure people here will be pleased to know that Terrence Mckenna heavily advocated, former biochemist and plant physiologist, Rupert Sheldrake's idea of a morphogenetic field.

For a 60 minute overview:

Google Video Link

Or in about 14 minutes:


(part 1)


(part 2)

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Xtraeme]

I originally created this thread just to "air" some of my personal thoughts and interpretations regarding my limited knowledge of developmental genetics/biology and truthfully, have been most impressed by many of the responses which have been thought provoking and well considered ... basically I'm getting an education as a result ... well done guys

But in a way, I tend to think that perhaps I haven't really made myself clear in my posts.
I understand how individual cells could be controlled or influenced by way of various mechanisms such as chemicals and/or hormones but this would only affect that particular cell and it's immediate vicinity.

But step back for a minute and take a look at the greater picture.

Everyone one of us has a similar physiological makeup/structure ... we have hands, arms, legs, heads, hearts, kidneys, livers, stomachs, etc, etc and every one of these has a very specific and definitive 3 dimensional shape. We all also have major veins and arteries that all start at one location within our bodies and end up at a much more distant location ... sometimes with many branches and offshoots occurring between the starting and ending points.
Because these gross physical characteristics are repeated in billions of humans, it stands to reason that a potential "simple" explanation is that some kind of template or blueprint is invoked to allow this "mass production" to take place.
Again, I'll use an artery as an example mainly because some individual arteries can cover large distances from start to end, and because they're a complex, 3 dimensional structure in themselves.

Now, the major purpose of this artery is to conduct a flow of blood from one part of the body to another, more distant part of the body ... and to do it efficiently and effectively.
That implies that even before the artery is "constructed", it's path through the body MUST be pre-determined and cannot be allowed to be a random wander here and there as the odds are almost certain it will never end up at it's required destination point ... which could lead to massive failure of the entire organism.
So, if this major artery will connect point A with distant point B, and will ALWAYS connect point A with point B, then it must have already been pre-designed by nature to accomplish this task. From this immediately follows that the starting and ending points are already known, as must all the intermediary points from A to B.
The artery construction begins at point A and immediately there has to be information available as to what direction the reproducing artery cells need to head for. Obviously if destination point B is "north" of starting point A, then logic suggests that the cells are "informed" that the preferred direction is north, as opposed to say heading south and away from the destination point B.
As the artery cells reproduce and the artery is slowly being constructed in the correct general direction, there will be many instances when this artery will be built in a fairly straight line and the new artery cells need to have the information supplied that "no major deviation for 3000 cell divisions" will occur. But then at the 3000 cell division mark, perhaps a branching artery that needs an approximate angle of say 20-30 degrees to the main artery needs to be constructed and so this information has to be available to the cells at the 3000 division mark ... not to the 2000 or 4000 division mark ... but only to the 3000 division mark cells. Where does this info come from ? how is it stored and how is it retrieved ONLY when required ?
After the branching starts, the main artery construction continues in the general direction of destination point B. But again, long before it reaches point B, there will possibly be many more branches to be constructed at specific points; there will be obstructions and obstacles that the artery will need to be constructed around but all the while maintaining that general build direction of destination point B.

In my opinion, from a cellular point of view, this is a massive construction and engineering project that could be likened to us building a tunnel that runs from country A to country B (100's of kms away), over rivers, avoiding tows and cities, over and around mountains, etc to finally arrive perfectly at its intended destination point in country B.
We certainly wouldn't undertake such a construction project without blueprints, templates, knowledge of distances, directions and angles and I fail to see how each individual artery cell being influenced only by chemicals, hormones or gradients in isolation and having no overall knowledge of the entire artery construction project, or the arteries current position in the body, or the amount of artery already constructed, or the amount of artery still to be constructed ... could possibly pull of such a sophisticated construction project without prior construction information/details/etc being already available.

Just briefly looked over this thread, since I'm out the door in a minute. But...it is a complex operation. Good thing cells can communicate:

Cell 2 Cell Communicaton

Nothing mystical in that process, of course it can seems impossible at first ,
take some very simple simulations, and even with simples rules, some behavior emerge which was not encoded by the original rules,
it's called "emergent behavior" in artificial intelligence,
it can actually be observed in quite simple systems,
i guess i don't have to say that with data so incredibly complex like DNA and all the molecular interactions involved it would be foolish to try to analyze the full thing(even if in facts it's exactly what scientist are trying to do).

Shapes of the organs don't need to be "encoded" , in fact it can be explained without that, one would be timing : the precise behavior of cells change with time when an organism grow, assembling a different way depending of precise gene expression and/or previous cells already there modifying in turn cells coming next.

even without that evolution in time, complex structure can be formed :
Diffusion algorithm
(some random page about diffusion i found on google)

Now multiply the complexity by one million and you end up with an unexplainable assembly of shapes , structures, and everything seems magical.

A lot of very simple algorithm can demonstrate complex shape forming, structure , behavior, no wonder the human body can show us all those things in a marvelous way.

I hope that makes sense.

reply to post by chinni


That's what I would presume.

reply to post by Chaotikmind

A lot of very simple algorithm can demonstrate complex shape forming, structure , behavior, no wonder the human body can show us all those things in a marvelous way.

I hope that makes sense.

Absolutely ... and i have no doubt whatsoever that such processes can and do play a major role in the developmental process of the organism ... and NO mysticism needs to be invoked

I'm simply trying to point out in my previous post example regarding the major artery, is that if the artery ALWAYS connects point A to distant point B within each and every human body (because that artery is a crucial component), then there must be some kind of guiding influence involved.
From the arteries starting viewpoint (at the cellular scale level), the final destination point of billions of artery cells later could be likened to a human tunnel construction project involving 100's of kilometres distance.

With the creation of the initial artery cell, "decisions" need to be made immediately ... e.g. when this artery cell divides, does it line up with the existing cell in the general direction of point B ? or does it line up to the side to begin construction of the circular exterior of the artery ? What prevents this 2nd artery cell from pointing in the wrong direction ... after all, from an individual cells point of view, surely NO direction has preference. But if a certain direction DOES have preference (i.e. towards point B), how is this preferred direction knowledge imparted and most importantly, WHY is this direction preferred above all other possible directions as far as that artery cell is concerned ?
So the fact that the artery eventually reaches it's final destination, implies that there MUST be a preferred overall direction for each and every artery wall cell ... where is this preferred direction info stored, retrieved and acted upon ?

Shapes of the organs don't need to be "encoded" , in fact it can be explained without that, one would be timing : the precise behavior of cells change with time when an organism grow, assembling a different way depending of precise gene expression and/or previous cells already there modifying in turn cells coming next.

Yes, I agree that many complex shapes can be created with nothing more than some very simple operations and rules but the majority of such generated shapes are 2 dimensional, without function (just look pretty ) and have a regular, repeating pattern that continues indefinitely ... nothing to terminate the repetitiveness.

But in the case of the major organs such as the heart, we have a 3 dimensional object with intricate but limited components and that is restricted in size and physical shape.

What sort of simple, recursive yet self-terminating, repetitive set of instruction would result in a 3 dimensional shaped object being created containing a number of hollow chambers, a few entry/exit artery locations and a number of valves controlling the direction of blood flow ? Doesn't seem to me that there's much about the heart thats the result of a repetitive, recursive algorithm. The heart clearly has a SPECIFIC function and has achieved that particular physical design because it works efficiently and gets the job done.

[edit on 11/11/09 by tauristercus]

Here's another simple example that may indicate that there's some construction info stored somewhere thats called upon when the need arises.

Lets say there's an artery being constructed in a certain direction and all's going well. But then at some point construction is temporarily halted because there's a major obstruction such as an organ.
So what's going to happen now ? a decision of some kind needs to be made as to whether the artery will continue to be built going around the object to the left, or going around the object to the right, or going over or going under ? How is the final decision arrived at ? What info is required to make the decision ? where is the info obtained from ?
There HAS to be a guiding template somewhere with the associated and necessary information to assist in these decisions ... otherwise, what the alternative ... a random decision to go left, right, over or under ? with the possibility that the random decision chosen will eventually result in the artery construction being impossible to complete for whatever reason ?

This may have been mentioned before, I have not had much time to read ALL responses, but one interesting tid bit came to mind when I read your hypothesis.

I read, not long ago, in a Popular Science (or another simliar mag) that researchers had been using liver cells to create a liver over a 'mesh' that was in the shape of a liver. The researchers did little more than introduce the cells to the environment and they were able to take shape.

So my reasoning is:

Either A) Since evolution is a step by step progression, the shape of the liver was programmed in since the first organism to posses one, thereby allowing that genetic information to be passed along and slowly transformed by changes through the eons.

or B) Our body uses a 'mesh' of some sorts, either a soft tissue or cartilage, that organizes the structure of the organs to a 'fit'.

I lean towards A myself, but I'll check back and see if anyone has anything else to add or any insights into this that may be necessary to make an accurate assessment on the possible reasons for such an unusual ability (creating an organ once, but being unable to replace it later in life). Also never underestimate the impact of virus' on our ancient ancestor's Genetic structure, and also our own.

Originally posted by tauristercus
Here's another simple example that may indicate that there's some construction info stored somewhere thats called upon when the need arises.

Lets say there's an artery being constructed in a certain direction and all's going well. But then at some point construction is temporarily halted because there's a major obstruction such as an organ.
So what's going to happen now ? a decision of some kind needs to be made as to whether the artery will continue to be built going around the object to the left, or going around the object to the right, or going over or going under ? How is the final decision arrived at ? What info is required to make the decision ? where is the info obtained from ?
There HAS to be a guiding template somewhere with the associated and necessary information to assist in these decisions ... otherwise, what the alternative ... a random decision to go left, right, over or under ? with the possibility that the random decision chosen will eventually result in the artery construction being impossible to complete for whatever reason ?

If an obstruction is met, the artery most often becomes a blind-ended (that is, it closes early) version of the physiologic state. This would prevent circulation to any tissues distal to the blunting of the artery. The only way this is ever corrected is by new growth of capillaries/arterioles, which iis caused when the tissues begin sending signals (often released due to anoxic death) that promote vascular growth and differentiation.

reply to post by JunoJive

I read, not long ago, in a Popular Science (or another simliar mag) that researchers had been using liver cells to create a liver over a 'mesh' that was in the shape of a liver. The researchers did little more than introduce the cells to the environment and they were able to take shape.

Very interesting ... thanks for that bit of info ... I'll try to look it up.

I'm willing to bet though that they picked the liver as a "test subject" organ because it basically has no well defined internal structures such as the heart and is essentially a mass of cells performing a specific function.
Also I'm aware that the liver is able to completely regenerate itself after major damage or a large section has been removed.

But I fail to see that you could encourage a bunch of proto-heart cells to create a completely viable heart by using a "mesh" otherwise I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.

I've read all the responses so far and yes, some of them have been extremely interesting but so far I have seen nothing that comes close to satisfactorily explaining the underlying mechanism that allows the creation of gross 3 dimensional, complex shaped organs like the heart ... not to mention supporting structures like the rib cage, skeleton or skull.
How would you be able to create a macro structure such as the rib cage, with the ribs separated in space and location by using a simple recursive algorithm or by applying chemical/hormonal/etc pressure or influence on each individual cell and somehow still end up with a 3 dimensional and solid outcome ?


In fact, here's a diagram of the internal structural complexity of the heart.
Try convincing me that something as sophisticated and complex as this was created without an underlying template or construction details.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a39644bc0620.jpg[/atsimg]
[edit on 11/11/09 by tauristercus]

[edit on 11/11/09 by tauristercus]

reply to post by tauristercus


Hello and great post!!

After reading you post and thinking how i could possibly convey my meandering theory on how distance, length and angels or achieved to construct a living being the first book of Mosses "Geneses" popped into my head.

I guess if you think of cells as blood line groups that branch out an inevitably form a Stiff Neck it's not that hard to come to a conclusion on how this would be achieved.

Each cell is divided from another it in a way becomes a descendant of that tribe of cells if you will. All cells come from the father cell, Kind of like Abraham, and knowledge is transferd down to each cell. This knowledge is also kept in communication through out all cells and they all get to work building the tabernacle, or the temple or what have you until you end up with the Stiff neck lol.

I'm sure there is more to.

Very cool thread.

I like the idea of a morphogenic field. If such a thing exists, could it possibly be linked to bio-photons?


Marco Bischof; Biophotons - The Light in Our Cells

According to the biophoton theory developed on the base of these discoveries the biophoton light is stored in the cells of the organism - more precisely, in the DNA molecules of their nuclei - and a dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA may connect cell organelles, cells, tissues, and organs within the body and serve as the organism's main communication network and as the principal regulating instance for all life processes.

www.transpersonal.de...



[edit on 11-11-2009 by Anamnesis]

I have no answers, but can share an interesting experience.

While in college, I replicated the Louie Carrell experiment which requires that you take just 3 embryonic chicken heart cells and grow them in a sterile flask, feeding them with feotal bovine serum...if done correctly, the cells will replicate.

They are unremarkable for the first two layers...they appear undifferentiated with no activity or communication.

When they reach the third layer...that's when the magic happens...and I was lucky enough to get to see it...for some reason, they reach a sort of critical mass ...and then suddenly they begin to BEAT IN UNISON....they will continue to do so until you can no longer sustain the cell mass growing in the flask.

in a way I saw the moment of birth....

Remember...that is in a flask...all on their own with no other physical/hormonal influences...unless you count the foetal bovine serum that is used to feed the cells....

Amazing stuff

I'm willing to bet though that they picked the liver as a "test subject" organ because it basically has no well defined internal structures such as the heart and is essentially a mass of cells performing a specific function.
Also I'm aware that the liver is able to completely regenerate itself after major damage or a large section has been removed.

You obviously have never taken a gross anatomy course. The liver is MUCH, MUCH more complex than you're giving it credit for. I would even go so far as to say it's more complex than both the lungs and heart (neither of which are too complex when you look a the component parts).

But I fail to see that you could encourage a bunch of proto-heart cells to create a completely viable heart by using a "mesh" otherwise I'm sure we would have heard about it by now.

The problem is decoding the three-dimensional chemical gradient, not the mesh itself. Once we have found a way to simulate that environment in vitro, you'll begin to see many organs created this way. We currently do it with skin, for the most part, and occasionally bits of liver and pancreas (only experimentally, not for clinical use).

I've read all the responses so far and yes, some of them have been extremely interesting but so far I have seen nothing that comes close to satisfactorily explaining the underlying mechanism that allows the creation of gross 3 dimensional, complex shaped organs like the heart ... not to mention supporting structures like the rib cage, skeleton or skull.

All of these have been answered at least twice (Byrd and myself). I have neither the time nor inclination to type out entire chapters from first year molecular embryology. If you're looking for a text, here's is a wonderful example: Topobiolo gy

The author of this book, Edelman, is a nobel laureate. In the text, he gives a wonderful overview of molecular embryology in humans and other complex organisms, touching on gradients, gene expression, and topobiology. If you're truly interested in the subject, this would be a great place to start.

How would you be able to create a macro structure such as the rib cage, with the ribs separated in space and location by using a simple recursive algorithm or by applying chemical/hormonal/etc pressure or influence on each individual cell and somehow still end up with a 3 dimensional and solid outcome ?

It's perfectly simple: you produce a three dimensional structure with a three dimensional gradient (ventral -> dorsal, and caudal -> cranial). This is coupled with cell to cell contact inhibition/control, differential expression (as a result of the gradient), and apoptosis (in the case of fingers, toes, and a few other structures).

In fact, here's a diagram of the internal structural complexity of the heart.
Try convincing me that something as sophisticated and complex as this was created without an underlying template or construction details.

The heart's structure and function aren't as complex as you're making them out to be. It's four chambers and a few nerves, period. In fact, the vascular system outside the heart is MUCH more complex, with it's baro- and chemoreceptors, compensation methods, etc. . The inner workings of the heart are not that complicated. As for the development of this seemingly complex form, it's all a matter of folding. Look for a quick video demonstration of the developing heart. It begins as a simply tube, and eventually swells and folds, giving rise to separate chambers. The same sort of pattern occurs in the development of the spinal cord and brain, prostate, and various other outgrowths of tubular structures. Not complex or uncommon.


[edit on 11/11/2009 by VneZonyDostupa]

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Firstly. let me thank you for your time and the info you're supplying as I'm finding it very interesting reading.

Now let me state that I had no intentions of denigrating the complexity or functionality of the liver ... I was simply making the comparison that the liver does not exhibit gross physical and mechanical characteristics to the extent that the heart does with its ventricles, valves, chambers, etc and that in my own opinion, that the construction of the heart appears to be more physically/mechanically complex in nature.

The problem is decoding the three-dimensional chemical gradient

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you when you refer to a three dimensional gradient as being responsible for the gross 3 dimensional shape of the various organs ... but isn't that just another way of saying that yes, there is an underlying template, blueprint or controlling mechanism in place that kicks in and DETERMINES the ultimate shape of the organ, whether it be the heart, skeleton or arteries ?

Irrespective, this still leads to a similar question as to where the information that feeds, controls and manipulates this 3 dimensional chemical gradient is stored, retrieved as required and implemented only when required. Otherwise my understanding would be that this 3 dimensional chemical gradient works in a completely random manner and yet still manages to result in gross 3 dimensional complex structures ... you'd be creating functional, reproducible (in billions of humans)complexity from essentially random behaviour ...

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by VneZonyDostupa

Firstly. let me thank you for your time and the info you're supplying as I'm finding it very interesting reading.

Now let me state that I had no intentions of denigrating the complexity or functionality of the liver ... I was simply making the comparison that the liver does not exhibit gross physical and mechanical characteristics to the extent that the heart does with its ventricles, valves, chambers, etc and that in my own opinion, that the construction of the heart appears to be more physically/mechanically complex in nature.

No worries, I just didn't want you to think the liver was just a big blob of tissue =P I figured you were just using it as an example.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you when you refer to a three dimensional gradient as being responsible for the gross 3 dimensional shape of the various organs ... but isn't that just another way of saying that yes, there is an underlying template, blueprint or controlling mechanism in place that kicks in and DETERMINES the ultimate shape of the organ, whether it be the heart, skeleton or arteries ?

We're almost on the same page. The way I've always thought about it and taught it is this:

Assume you have a completely sealed cube shaped container of water (in this case, it represents the placenta/developing embryo). Now, also assume there is a small spigot in the center of each face of the cube. Each spigot injects a different color of food coloring into the container, which diffuses into the water. If each spigot is injecting at the same rate, you'll end up with an array of colors inside the cube, with each spigot's unique color being strongest at the source (the spigot) and weakest at the center of the cube (where all the colors will mix). The ratio of, say, blue food coloring to red food coloring at a specific point would be analgous to the real life ratio of the hormones BMP and Eyeless, which might activate one set of genes. At the same time, at the same point, you have orange and green food coloring diffusing from another three-dimensional plane at a different ration, which in the real world may activate or inhibit another set of genes. All of these ratios are the basis of the chemical gradient, and create a complex network of activation, deactivation, and modulation of genetic/cellular processes.

It's also worth nothing that this gradient isn't really a "template". I say this because the gradient doesn't necessarily exist prior to the indifferent stage of tissue development (when the first few hundred/thousand cells are dividing and organizing). Also, the gradient can be enhanced or suppressed by the dividing cells themselves, making it even less of a "template" and more like a GPS system for the cells, providing them with individual location and activity information.

You also have to keep in mind that this sytem works in conjunction with chemical and contact signals from neighboring cells. Using your heart example, the walls of the heart develop in this manner, as the cell-to-cell contact lets a developing cardiac cell know that it is bounded by X number of layers, so it no longer needs to divide, or needs to divide more quickly if there aren't enough cells in the wall of the tissue.

Irrespective, this still leads to a similar question as to where the information that feeds, controls and manipulates this 3 dimensional chemical gradient is stored, retrieved as required and implemented only when required. Otherwise my understanding would be that this 3 dimensional chemical gradient works in a completely random manner and yet still manages to result in gross 3 dimensional complex structures ... you'd be creating functional, reproducible (in billions of humans)complexity from essentially random behaviour ...

All the information for both the gradient and the differntial cell specialisation is found within the genes of the mother and the developing embryo. A couple of posts back I touched on methylation. This plays a big role in development, as it controls which genes are on or off, or how active the genes are. Each type fo cell (myocyte, osteocyte, fibroblast, etc.) contains the same genome, but a differene epigenome (factors that affect how and when btis of the genome are expressed). All of these genetic factors are programmed literally moments after conception, and are mostly inherited from the mother.