Massachutsetts spits on Defense of Marriage Act...

I have to step in here, Caz, in order to correct an error you made in your last post.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Doing whatever you want as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else is the basic premise behind the SATANIC BIBLE....
Did you realize how close your views are to a practicing devil worshiper?

The concept of 'If it harms none, do what you will' was originally spoken of by Aleister Crowley and taken by Gerald Gardner when he 'created' the modern form of Wicca.

The idea is this - 'Do what you want - providing it doesn't do any harm'. Now, you may think that gives pagans a licence to do whatever they want. It doesn't. Believing in this tenet means just that - you cannot do harm, and if the act - whatever it is - causes harm, then you cannot do it.

For example, who of you out there have stolen paperclips from your place of work ? Many do, even Christians. But stealing from someone ultimately causes harm. So Wiccans can't do it. Simple as that.

Anton LaVey, creator of the Church of Satan (and author of the Satanic Bible) never used that concept in his book. If you have ever read it, you will see that it is a work of pure selfishness. I include here quotes from the book, taken from the Church of Satan website.

The Nine Satanic Statements
1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his �divine spiritual and intellectual development,� has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another�s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Nowhere does it say 'Do what you want, providing it does no harm' (or any other manner of saying the same thing). The Satanic Bible and Satanism itself (The Laveyan version) is purely self-orientated. Wicca is a nature religion which reveres life. Wiccans - true ones at least - cannot just run around doing anything and everything. Causing harm is against their core beliefs. So they don't do it.

KayEm is a Wiccan. A lover of nature and all things that live. Including human beings. She is not and never has been a follower of any 'Satanic' religions or beliefs.


[Edited on 24-5-2004 by Pisky]

Originally posted by CSRules
Marriage is between a man and a women, plain and simple. Been that way for 1000's of years. If the people who..."Want to do the bone dance with Mr. Spinchter, want a civil union"....fine let them have it. BUT IT IS NOT MARRIAGE!!!!!!

Semantics! Dictionaries can be rewritten.

Caz you need to do a little research about the Satanic Bible and more specifically Pagan religion that has that same concept and which BTW was around before christianity. How you can jump from Do as you will, but hurt no one to Devil Whorship is beyond me. Typical ignorant rantings from people who know little or nothing about anything beyond thier own religion. Also if you cared to do a little research into the life of "YOUR" savior Jesus Christ you will find that he was trained by pagans himself lol

Doing whatever you want as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else is the basic premise behind the SATANIC BIBLE.... Did you realize how close your views are to a practicing devil worshiper?

We as a society set our boundaries in our constitution. Equal protection under the law is a right. The Constitution didn't say you can have equal protection if your not gay... it said equal protection for all. End of discussion.

If you don't like that law Caz maybe you should consider moving to a country where the churches and religion rules... like say oh let me think ... hmmmm.... some Muslim country perhaps ? lmaoooo

Originally posted by Pisky
(in response to Kaz)
KayEm is a Wiccan. A lover of nature and all things that live. Including human beings. She is not and never has been a follower of any 'Satanic' religions or beliefs.

Thank you.

I'll add my own two cents here -- I'm also a follower of Wiccan paths (and have been since the movement started in the US in the late 1960's.) I don't believe in Satan any more than I believe in the Tooth Fairy, and my principles (as you so eloquently pointed out) are very different from the Satanic ones. I have no interest in adopting their religion or their ethics -- it would be as anamathetic to me as Christianity is.

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by CSRules
Marriage is between a man and a women, plain and simple. Been that way for 1000's of years. If the people who..."Want to do the bone dance with Mr. Spinchter, want a civil union"....fine let them have it. BUT IT IS NOT MARRIAGE!!!!!!

Semantics! Dictionaries can be rewritten.

Actually... CS needs to take a few courses in anthropology. Marriage is not the union of a man and a woman. It's about kinship and relationship, and it can be very complex.

In some areas it's between one man and many women (plus concubines), in other areas it's between one woman and many men (Inuit, Inupiyat, some areas of Tibet), and in some areas it's a cultural/social thing.

For instance, in modern Africa, in many areas a woman can take a wife in a legal ceremony. They will not be sexually involved, but the "wife" woman treats the "husband" woman as she would treat any husband, and issues of property ownership and relationships are handled as though they were man and wife. This is an ancient tradition.

Among the American Indians, strongly bisexual or homosexual individuals often performed magical/healing rites of the community and could be taken as spouse by a person of the same gender. Among the Comanches, it was considered good luck for a warrior to have sex with a berdache (male homosexual transvestite (man who lived as a woman)) before going to war.

Marriage ties are (as I discovered this semester) far more than "One-Man-One Woman." The OMOW model is an aberration, not the standard throughout human history and human society.

Christians can provide you with numerous examples from the Bible (I'm sure someone can leap in with Biblical quotes of the numerous wives and concubines of the patriarchs and of examples where a wife sent her "handmaid" to the husband so the handmaid could bear children to the husband.)

Originally posted by TenPin
The only argument against same sex marriage is the Bible.



If God does exist then the USA had better watch out. The Bible is fairly clear what God will do.

In the same area it says that, it also says you have the right to Sell you daughter, Own slaves and few other odd things So if you believe in one you must believe in that as well .Heres aome great questions from the bible written by someone else. to a person quoting Lev about Homos

1) When I burn a sacrificed bull to honor my Lord, it creates a sweet savour to him (Lev 1:9).
The problem is my neighbours. They claim the smell is repugnant to them. How should I solve this problem?

2) I would like ot sell my daughter as a slave, just as it's hinted in Ex 21:7. In our time, and age, what would you think would be a fair price for her?

3) I know I'm not allowed to have any contact with a woman that menstruates, and therefore is unclean (Lev 15:19-24) The problem is, how do I know? I've tried to ask, but most women feel insulted when I ask.

4) In Lev 25:44 it tells me that I'm allowed to buy slaves from the nations around us. A good friend of mine claim that this is true for Mexicans, but not Canadians, could you plese tell me more about this?

5) I have a neighbour that persist in working on the 7th day. Ex 35:2 tells us that he should be killed. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6) One of my dear friends claims that eating crustaceans is an abnorminality (Lev 11:10), but that it's a lesser sin than homosexuality, I disagree. Can you help us solve our disagreeance?

7)In Lev 21:20 I'm told that I'm barred from aproaching the altar to God if my sight is limited. I must admit, I wear glasses, must my vision be 20/20 or is there a way to stretch the rules a little here?

If they want equal protection under the law, then give it to them. Just call it something else.

Have to agree with you here, there's no reason to actually call it "marriage" but some kind of legal union would be only right and fair.

Originally posted by Byrd
I'm also a follower of Wiccan paths (and have been since the movement started in the US in the late 1960's.) I don't believe in Satan any more than I believe in the Tooth Fairy, and my principles (as you so eloquently pointed out) are very different from the Satanic ones. I have no interest in adopting their religion or their ethics -- it would be as anamathetic to me as Christianity is.

Thank you Byrd and Pisky for explaining exactly what Wiccan beliefs entail. I thought Cazmedia's kind of thinking had gone by the board in these more 'enlightened' times, but I was obviously wrong.
I am not a Satanist and, as Byrd put it, it would be anamathetic to me to take up their belief structure.

Originally posted by Midnight Raven

I am not a Satanist and, as Byrd put it, it would be anamathetic to me to take up their belief structure.

Hi, Wiccans! I hope you are well. I wanted to say a couple of things. First, and completely without rancour or embarassment, the word for which you are looking is "anathematic," but if you'd like to make it easier on yourself, you can just use the word anathema, as in "It would be anathema for me to insult someone simply because of their religious beliefs."

Secondly, as a Christian who has no problem at all with Wiccans, I'm always dissapointed when I hear or read Wiccans going on about how horrible my religion is.

Re: Pisky, you state that Wiccans are not allowed to steal paperclips from work, but many Christians do. You are a smart person and must be aware of the absurdity of your statement. Of course Christians are also prohibited from stealing, and the "size" or lack thereof of the theft is of no relevance whatsoever. To claim that Wiccans don't steal while Christians do is simply prejudice and intolerance.

Re: Byrd's feeling toward Christianity. I am surprised that my faith is "anathema" to you. Do you really mean that? The word "anathema" carries the connotation of such revulsion and hate that one could never be reconciled with that which is anathema, and that the only solution is complete separation or destruction of one of the two of you... is this really how you feel? If so, I'm sorry that you've gotten such a poor view of my faith somewhere.

[Edited on 24-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by CazMedia
It hurts me as a person when the sanctity of my beliefs and basic religious tennants are stripped away against my wishes to fit a minority view.

Well guess what, our country was essentially founded on that idea. Freedom of religion means that no one is locked into any one religion, and separation of church and state means that our government cannot simply make laws with the basis being the Bible, or any other religious text. Why? Because inevitably that is NOT freedom of, or from, religion. So have whatever beliefs you want, no one can change your opinion, but our government is not run by your's (or anyone else's) religious beliefs.

You still did not answer my basic question, why prevent gays from marrying if there are no anti-homosexual laws in a state? What's one legitimate reason for it?

Originally posted by Oisin
Have to agree with you here, there's no reason to actually call it "marriage" but some kind of legal union would be only right and fair.

Why would it matter what it's called? If it's called marriage for heterosexuals, why wouldn't it be called marriage for homosexuals as well?

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
In the same area it says that, it also says you have the right to Sell you daughter, Own slaves and few other odd things So if you believe in one you must believe in that as well .Heres aome great questions from the bible written by someone else. to a person quoting Lev about Homos

All those passages of scripture that you quoted only applied to the Israelites and no longer apply to them because Christians can live under grace because of Jesus has taken our punishment on the cross abolishing old testament law.

All of the old testament laws have passed away and now only the new testament laws apply.

So your next question is obviously, Does that make it ok to murder and lie then ?

No because 9 of the 10 commandments are in the new testament law. The only one missing is keeping the sabbath.

1. No God but Jehovah - 1 Cor. 8:4; Acts 14:15
2. No graven images - Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:22,23; 1 John 5:21
3. Don't take God's name in vain - James 5:12
4. Remember the sabbath. This command is the only one of the ten that is nowhere repeated in the New Testament.
5. Honor your parents - Eph. 6:2,3
6. Do not kill - Rom. 13:8-10
7. Do not commit adultery - Rom. 13:8-10; 1 Cor. 6:9,10
8. Do not steal - Rom. 13:8-10; Eph. 4:28
9. Do not bear false witness - Rev. 21:8; 22:15; Col. 3:9
10. Do not covet - Rom. 13:8-10; Eph. 5:8.

Re: Pisky, you state that Wiccans are not allowed to steal paperclips from work, but many Christians do. You are a smart person and must be aware of the absurdity of your statement. Of course Christians are also prohibited from stealing, and the "size" or lack thereof of the theft is of no relevance whatsoever. To claim that Wiccans don't steal while Christians do is simply prejudice and intolerance.


Read the post again. This is what I said ...

For example, who of you out there have stolen paperclips from your place of work ? Many do, even Christians.

I said even Christians. The implication is not that all Christians are thieves but that even some of Christs followers seem to think that stealing paperclips is 'ok'. Stealing by anyone, be they Christian or Pagan is prohibited by their belief systems.

Well AlexKennedy, you really should find a better way of defending your religion than by calling people 'Devil Worshippers' and mocking a person's spelling mistakes. Maybe you could give us a theological debate or explain what Christianity means to you rather than just spouting forth abuse and mockery.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
As far as a "gay" (I assume you mean homosexual) male being offended that I find not him, but his "lifestyle offensive, I could care less. It seems they are not concerned about my view on the subject, they are more than happy to have their "lifestyle" crammed down my family's throat.

Your family has a "gay lifestyle" crammed down their throat??!

HAHAHAHA!!!!





"There is no enemy anywhere" - Lao Tse

Originally posted by Midnight Raven
Well AlexKennedy, you really should find a better way of defending your religion than by calling people 'Devil Worshippers' and mocking a person's spelling mistakes. Maybe you could give us a theological debate or explain what Christianity means to you rather than just spouting forth abuse and mockery.

Ummm... woah... I think you really misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I can't find any place where I've ever called anyone a 'devil worshipper'... could you please show me where I've said that and I will edit it out?

As for mocking someone's spelling... if you look, you'll see that I begin my post by pointing out that I was writing without rancour (i.e. no anger or argument) and without embarassment (i.e. no-one should be embarassed about getting such a rarely-used word as "anathema" incorrect... it's rarely used, therefore I'd be surprised if most people even knew of its existence, much less its spelling).

As for the theological debate, I am a fan of debating, but what would you like to debate about? As for explaining what Christianity means to me, well, it depends on what issue you are talking about, but regarding both the apparent rift between myself and some Wiccans (believe it or not, there are some Wiccans who claim to hate Christianity) and the issue of gay marriage, I believe that John 13:34 is germane:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Ummm... woah... I think you really misinterpreted what I said. First of all, I can't find any place where I've ever called anyone a 'devil worshipper'... could you please show me where I've said that and I will edit it out?

As for mocking someone's spelling... if you look, you'll see that I begin my post by pointing out that I was writing without rancour (i.e. no anger or argument) and without embarassment (i.e. no-one should be embarassed about getting such a rarely-used word as "anathema" incorrect

OMG - I'm so sorry for that. I was so annoyed at what I saw as a slur on my intelligence that I mixed you up with another poster who did call another pagan a 'Devil Worshipper'.

Having read the thread again, I can see what you mean.

Sorry again.

No problem whatsoever, it happens to the best and the worst of us

TYhis is likley to be a big post as ive drawn fire from soo many. hang in there.

I am amused....ONE mention trying to compare/contrast ideological veiwpoints became a religious debaccle...LOL, as i knew it would. People are so predictable....even tho i stated religion was not being used by me as a basis for my position.

I NEVER said anyone was a devil worshiper, i asked a question about comparing view points....in fact until that point,kayem had never stated her religious prefrence nor did I. No ones sexuality was called into question as to being gay or not. Again amusing that people read what they want to hear.

KayEm....
No comment on my changing ONE word in your statement to show how hypocritical your view is? The same idea about choice is OK for one idea, but not another? heres more hypocracy in your statements
you say,
"You, like an awful lot of other people in this world desire a uniform, cloned Stepford society where everybody thinks and lives a like and nobody deviates from the norms that your 'majority' deem as right and just."
and
"(I)...desire a world where individuality is respected as are other peoples personal choices. "
Hmm, you dont give the same respect for others personal choices as you ask from them.???

In other words, if you respect others choices, then if they choose to "conform to the norm" that is not only their choice, but by your own statement then YOU MUST RESPECT THEIR CHOICE. Im not saying that you must agree with the right or wrong of their choice, but by NOT respecting them for their beliefs, you violate you own beliefs about mutual respect as well as the "DO NO HARM" idea....or is it ok that this idea your pushing harms others? (weather you percieve or acknowledge their harm or not)
You cant have these 2 ideas both ways....They either include ALL ideologies or they exclude at some point. (you could substitute discriminate for the word exclude)
By treating the "majority" as the bad people, you dont respect the culture to which you are asking consessions from....and yet you expect them to respect your new thinking into their cultural beliefs? This is part of my beef about this gay marriage adgenda....it seems really selfish, only concerned with getting themselves something, at the expense of others.

Pisky,
Thanks for the details on satanism, and yes i read Levey's "bible, and i agree with you, its selfish...I will admit confusing parts of satanism with wiccan ideology but have read more after your post. I read this in order to challenge 8yrs of parochial schools dogema....how would i know what the church said was true if i didnt look at both sides....p.s. i was expelled from lutheran school in the 8th grade for telling the head pastor and the principle that they were hypocrits and providing public examples of this behaivior...they were not pleased. Dont think im a "stepford conformist" as KayEm has tried to lable me. I have also examined basic wiccan principals as well, but before im executed, no im not going to claim to be an expert, but i can tell hypocracy when i see it. (im not wild about the "anything goes" ideology.)

Chevy,
go back and look at my discrimination is legal points and try to explain to me where equal protections are? and why then do we have "exclusionary" programs abounding where some can gain bennifits that others cant based on sex, race, creed, age, income... ect? To remind you, its because we have the right to be left alone or to gather as we choose without interfearance from others that dont uphold our groups beliefs.
WHY IS MARRIAGE ANY DIFFERENT OF AN ISSUE THEN?

If its ok to do this with some "groups" why not with marriage as well? PS, the exit door swings open for all that dont like the democratic republic we have here for any reason...hmmm doesnt sweeden have gay marriage? I have nothing against sweeden, but if i wanted to have their rules, id move there, i want America to have different idealogies than them..so i again ask
DOES A SOCIETY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFINE ITSELF BY ADOPTING CULTURAL VALUES IT WISHES TO EXPOUSE?
WHEN did it become "wrong" for a culture to do this?

Byrd and Midnight Raven,
Exactly what TYPE of thinking do you refer to? (raven)
Raven says, "as Byrd put it, it would be anamathetic to me to take up their belief structure."
To both of you....if its anamathetic for you to take up "their" beliefs (whoever they are), then why is it not ok for others to feel the same way?
(why would society be "wrong" if the culture decided not to adopt gay marriage?) Why are you supprised that the general culture resists this idea, if you are allowed to resist adopting their ideas?

Dont forget that what you do in the privacy of your bedroom becomes PUBLIC once you get to the courthouse to get your marriage/civil union license....If this has to do with legal issues in the public domain, then it affects every citizen. weather they feel any impact or not.

This has everything to do with how we want others to perceive our nation as well as how they view our culture. (Remember the terrorists have stated that homosexuality is ONE of the reasons we are percieved by them as being an evil society....dont tell me perceptions of others dont count, fundamentalist islamists are trying to kill westerners based on their perceptions of us that we present to them.)

Hamilton,
You say,
"our government is not run by your's (or anyone else's) religious beliefs. "

No its not, nor should it be or become dominated by religious ideology.
But you forget that for +250 yrs, the country and its legal structure evolved from a judeo/christian set of values....this is not to say that this evolution is done, or that it has not hit snags along the way (prohibition ring a bell?)
But, we as a nation are where we are now with cultural values because of the foundation weve built upon. I for one am not willing to throw away our history here in America, and will not dis-honor my grandfathers sacrifice to this nation or ANYONES forfathers that contributed to making what America is today, by giving away the principals and morals that this country stands for...especially on a selfish whim....and one of choice.

Here is an answer for your question.
All ive heard about gay marriage is "Give me give me" from a vocal minority to the majority. No one has provided me with a look at the effect on laws, what laws are affected by gay marriage....where are the loopholes that can be exploited? Not even a look at basic manners about gay marriage...like how do you introduce a couple formally? is steve, daves husband or wife, spouce or significant other?

Marriage is a leaky boat already....indeed it can be abused thru legal channels now (not everyone marries for love) it makes no differance that a marriage is successful or not, or weather children result or not.
So now we have one pair that can marry (m4f),but you all want us to get 3 pairs going....adding a m4m and a f4f to the leaky boat that is marriage...
thats a 2/3 increase in the abuse potential using marriage, yet no one has ttalked about the impact for this society, its laws, or how this is percieved.
Hmm the boat of marriage is already flawed and leaky, but lets put MORE people into this situation, without a more detailed analysis...does this sound wise?

Now answer my question, Does a democratic society have the right to self determination with respect to its laws and "face" that it shows to other cultures? What if thru democratic means, the culture decides that NO is the answer for it, what then?

WHEW THAT WAS A LOT OF WORK....hope you all kept up, and i await the onslaught from the people. (or the support of NON BIBLE THUMPERS...IE i dont care what your god says about it! Stick to tangible concepts, not hypothetical ones...IE prove god first)

Just for a frame of referance for proponents of gay marriage, here is an ally for you.

www.churchofsatan.com...

Any reactions there?

Just for a frame of referance for proponents of gay marriage, here is an ally for you.

www.churchofsatan.com...

Any reactions there?