Enough! Please read for further details.

Okay guys.. this endless crap is getting really old. REALLY old. The constant bickering, name calling and all the other bullocks over who is or is not correct. When did UFOlogy become a religion? When did Skepticism become a religion. Bottom line is like it or not, WE ARE ALL LOOKING FOR THE SAME ANSWERS ON THE SAME TEAM! what are these mysterious answers? One word can sum it up; TRUTH! The truth is NOT skeptics are closed minded neo-cons, Nor is it all believers are the smartest children with downs syndrome. Believers! Skeptics have an important role to play in this subculture. they drive us to dig further for the truth because LIKE IT OR NOT! We as a whole have a tendency to throw up anything and call it the devistating "E" word. EVIDENCE! testimony from joe schmukatelly in farmington India is NOT EVIDENCE! its called a LEAD! Pictures, video all that crap is JUST CRAP until it is PROPERLY analysed. and those of us that have a brain KNOW IT WILL REQUIRE MORE THAN ONE ANALYSIS to be considered even Unexplained. AT BEST! Their Role is to ASK THE QUESTIONS WE DIDNT THINK OF!?
Skeptics! WE the believers have a role as well and that role is NOT posting pictures of alf and calling it a grey. Nor is it believing EVERY BLOODY THING WE CANNOT EXPLAIN. Our role is to keep you research horney buggers happy. You can always tell a DECENT believer from the quacks because the post usually ends with "...was posted to debunk...."

As for the disclosure fanatics, the contactees, and the crystal worshippers.... yeah.. um.. Though they are relatively harmless I cannot place stock in the stories. THat is where even I become a questioner as well. Believers. YOU MUST REMEMBER!!!! (and this is being typed by a believer too) 9times out of 10 the answers we seek are mundane. This constant battling over old subject matter makes us ALL look stupid, and holds us ALL back.
Fellow believers. if you see something that catches your eye, and you post it without even REMOTELY questioning it, you're not a believer, you're an idiot. We have ALL made our fair share if "IM RETARDED" posts. Even the *academics*

the point here is simple. WE ALL WANT THE SAME THING AND WE WILL NOT GET IT WHILE CALLING NAMES! You have to realise how bad it is when your own team is telling you to piss off. That goes for both skeptics AND believers. (moreso the latter)

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 19 Oct 09 by Gools]

Problem: Light in the sky can be anything.

Solution: None.

Consequence: Arguing.


[edit on 18-10-2009 by Copernicus]

reply to post by stanlee


Nice post stanlee, I agree. I myself am a believer, and I believe probably about 90% of what goes on in this sub-forum.

Take that skeptics.

reply to post by Copernicus


one doesnt need to argue. the person that sees this should, if they are curious or want an explanation, study astro=physics. even to get the basics of it. This will prevent much arguing.

Nice post, thought i just pop in give you my opinion.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, if you can only imagine the flak i receive on many fronts, i guess its part of the internet. Nevertheless, i enjoy listening to freaky ufo conspiracy posts " the u.s. know of aliens but will not disclose" , thats my favorite. I normally reply to that with " yes, off course the u.s. along with other nations know of aliens and were they originate, and no, humanity cannot handle the truth, this is why everyone is kept in the dark ages. Now that you know, has it changed your life in any way ? "

Anyway, i enjoyed your post.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tristar]

Originally posted by stanlee
reply to post by Copernicus

 

one doesnt need to argue. the person that sees this should, if they are curious or want an explanation, study astro=physics. even to get the basics of it. This will prevent much arguing.

If there is aliens, our science is so far behind theirs that its really no point trying to argue what is possible/not possible using that as the foundation. Its like a ant trying to understand humans. Good luck to them.

reply to post by Copernicus


this being partially true, the greater intelligence would take on a role as teacher, or mentor. they would leave signs for all to let them know they are there, atleast I believe this/ Look at the findings of Stan Tenen, and Hoagland. both are engineers and scientists, and both have decided to look further into controversial subjects. Both have come back with amazing results.

reply to post by stanlee

Okay guys.. this endless crap is getting really old. REALLY old. The constant bickering, name calling and all the other bullocks over who is or is not correct. When did UFOlogy become a religion? When did Skepticism become a religion. Bottom line is like it or not, WE ARE ALL LOOKING FOR THE SAME ANSWERS ON THE SAME TEAM! what are these mysterious answers? One word can sum it up; TRUTH! The truth is NOT skeptics are closed minded neo-cons, Nor is it all believers are the smartest children with downs syndrome. Believers! Skeptics have an important role to play in this subculture

A subculture of Subdivisions. Set your thread up with some Rush ?
I hope you don't mind O.P.
What you wrote sent me immediatly in search of this song.
If you ask me its's like the blueprint of what you're saying.

lyrics anyone?

Sprawling on th fringes of the city
In geometric order
an insulated border
In between the bright lights
and THE FAR UNLIT UNKNOWN

Growing up it all seems so one sided
Opinions all provided
The future pre=decided
Detached and subdivided
In the mass production zone
Nowhere is the dreamer or the misfit so alone

Chorus
In the highschool halls
In the shopping malls
Conform or be cast out
In the basement bars
In the backs of cars
Be cool or be cast out
Any escape might help disprove the unattractive truth
But the suburbs have no charms to soothe the restless dreams of youth

drawn like moths we drift into the city
The timeless old attraction
Crusing for the action
lit up like a firefly
Just to feel the living night


Well some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of the memory of lighted streets on quiet nights


The last time I looked we could no longer afford to be divided.
I do agree with O.P.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by randyvs]

I'm fascinated by the idea that they *must be more intelligent than us*., why?

Where the settlers in the USA any more intelligent than the Native Americans? No, they were more advanced in their technology, there is a huge difference.

Take one scenario for possible development of space travel. A society where the social make up is far akin to that of ants or bees. What's referred to as the *hive * mentality. That is, should the leader of said society decree that, space travel, is to be the primary focus of the society all the resources and minds are harnessed to that end. You could, quite possibly, have a society with no huge consumerist boom, where the technology is applied with a single mindedness to one end.

That could see a society where, the sense of self, is poorly developed, or restrained to such an extent that *freedom of thought* is really only allowed in the context of technological development. Does that make them more intelligent than us? Or does it make them simply more *efficient* than we are?

You see intelligence doesn't really mean anything. The steam engine was invented 2000 years ago. What humans lacked was someone with the ability to conceptualise what it could do for us. Therefore, by the same token it is wholly possible that. A civilisation that , socially, is way behind us, could have a greater ability to conceptualise, in context, about technology. Socially they might still think it is perfectly OK to burn anyone who does not follow the modal model of religion. in other words, more advanced than us, technologically, socially, behind us.

Then ask yourself, would either of those sort of societies, if they found our Earth, really want contact with us? Surely they would see our ideas as a pollutant that might destroy the very basis of their own societies?

I am not saying I preclude a society finding us that is, both technically and for want of a better word, more spiritually advanced than we are might be. However, the assumption that they must be both is, to my mind , an erroneous one.

Technological advancement does not, automatically mean, greater social awareness.

I have to point out that at first glance a lot of information out there grabs my attention as proof positive. Then I come to ATS and seriously research the information and see that it is totally false. I feel that the skeptics have kept me in check. I do believe that there is something intelligent out there but most of what we see is fake. SO I appreciate their information and listen to what they have to say. Then I can logically make my own decision about such information. That's what make ATS so important. You get all sides of a situation.

There is only one undeniable truth to any argument, without unequivocal evidence, there is no proof.
So that leaves us open to all kinds of possibilities.
Belief on the other hand, requires only the individual's choice to believe the evidence on hand.
If you believe in something, it does not make it true.
One must be open to the possibility that your perspective has been flawed.
The same thing goes for evidence.
The evidence can be misleading, and you need to verify it thoroughly before accepting it as proof.
Your proof however, may not be enough evidence for someone else.
There in is the notion that truth is more or less subject to interpretation.
"once again"
Everyone will eventually have to take a stand sometime and present their arguments.

reply to post by FireMoon


touche... although the settlers DID know how to shave

reply to post by tinkytink1207


yeah well. I seem to remember posting an advertising blimp a LONG time ago that I thought was a UFO because some bloke said it was.

reply to post by reticledc

tried saying that same thing to an un named believer two days ago. the response was nothing more than "THat doesnt make sense... its illogical" basically had no argument just wanted to make US look bad

I think one of the problems (amongst many) is that we still want to divide ourselves up in to "groups" of skeptics and believers. That can't happen, the very act of doing this causes innate division that is sure to disrupt the proper flow of research, which is exactly what it is doing now. We all don't "need the other side to balance the other out", there is no sides, no one should "balance out" anyone. We are all here for a common purpose that should be to examine the available evidence in a unbiased, empirical, and collaborative manner so we can come to, at the very least, a probable explanation or list of possible explanations to each case.

The UFO phenomena is something which the likes we have never seen before, the very foundation of which is mysterious in nature. Not only that, but the implications of the findings of any research could have paradigm shattering consequences for everyone on the planet. I think this must be considered as a possible reason to why we still see this divide, as people handle such major things in different manners. Either way this bickering must stop, we need to stop worrying about "who is right and who is wrong" and just work to solve this enigma for the benefit of all mankind.

reply to post by jkrog08


THis is true Mr. Jkrog. BUT! there is one undeniable difference betwixt the two of us. WHETHER OR NOT WE CHOOSE TO ADMIT IT! We, the believers, are more likely to post ANYTHING and say "LOOK! PROOF BEYOND A DOUBT!" YOU are more likely to look at the mundane BEFORE looking at the fantastic, and say "Actually, its just mud on the camera lense".

But again, whether or not we choose to admit it, we are all here because we all want the same thing. THE TRUTH. THe truth IS More often than not, the things we see are perfectly normal be they weather, (Mr. Oz) or frauds (Mr, Jkrog, Mr. Phage, Mr. Rex, and the last guy who is always in here whose name for some reason I cannot remember) The thing most 'believers' forget to look at is NOT ONLY are they up in arms, excited for some grande thing to happen, and not looking at ALL possibilities, They... or rather, WE, forget to note that ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS! You guys give more reference for your claims than WE do. I am working on fixing this in a paper I am currently writing FOR ATSers to read. I will NOT post it as "TRUTH UNDENIABLE" Just simpley a fitting title. We that believe without a doubt need to be LESS excited, and LESS pissy when the things we post are debunked.. ISNT THAT WHY WE PLACE THEM UP HERE?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by stanlee]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by stanlee]

Originally posted by stanlee
reply to post by reticledc

 

tried saying that same thing to an un named believer two days ago. the response was nothing more than "THat doesnt make sense... its illogical" basically had no argument just wanted to make US look bad

I don't doubt that a lot of the serious contributors here wouldn't have any difficulty agreeing with you on that.

There comes a point where one may have to accept the fact that there is just no helping some people. Not that it's any of our places to help anyone.
We contribute our ideas, and it's up to the reader to make their own decisions.
The same goes for believers, non-believers, skeptics, and fanatics.
everyone is entitled to their own view, regardless of how accurate or misguided it may be.
The only reason I even participate in such debacles, is simple.
I wish to increase my own understanding of what it is to be human.
Some people are not so endowed to be able to see or understand multiple perspectives.
If they ask for help, guide them, never show them.
In the process of guidance, you may learn something new yourself.
Something you never thought possible, your perspective can change.

Peace.

[edit on 10/18/2009 by reticledc]

reply to post by reticledc


And that is exactly WHY WE NEED THE VIEW THAT SERIOUSLY QUESTIONS EVERYTHING, (what we call skeptics) Again, if it werent for you guys WE WOULD BE GETTING NOWHERE. The common ground we have is we want TRUTH. Both sides of this oroverbial fence. SO in that light, there really isnt any fence at all. The fanatical types need to realise what a grande tool we, the believers, have in the skeptics. So I present this proposal. Instead of PROOF UNDENIABLE, let us merely post, with a fitting title, and allow the skeptics to DO THEIR JOB. (The real ones that is. and the real ones, that I have come across) are DoomsDay Rex, Phage, JKROG, OZ, and the last one whose name I cannot remember. I am going to look this guy up and make an edit and for the record, its not the guy that posted leave the skeptics alone. THE NAME I SAUGHT IS CONVERGE

[edit on 18-10-2009 by stanlee]

reply to post by randyvs


GOOD CALL Canadas Best in my opinion

THere we have it the best argument for TRUE UFOlogy. JKROG, CONVERGE, OZ, DOOMSDAY REX, and PHAGE. granted the latter two can be a bit on the harsh side from time to time, but thanks to these five mentioned people, I have learned to question what I see. Is it a plan in funny light, weather, a balloon, satallite, hoax image, or is it alien? with one excetption that I am not ready to state is alien yet, I have come across ALL MUNDANE explanations. Before these guys here I would have called a custom blimp a UFO. LMFAO!! wait.... I did.