Question for the Birthers . . . .

All right, so I will grant that IF Obama were not a natural born citizen (which I believe him to be for better or worse), that he would not be eligible to be president. Fine. Noted and Accepted. This would theoretically invalidate his actions as president. Incidentally, the Birthers seem to unanimously agree that O's policies are the worst thing to happen to this nation in the history of anything. So why would O's controllers create this SNAFU which would allow their diabolical works to be undone?

I will break down my question thusly: what is the Agenda behind the elaborate machinations that the Birther movement seems to believe are at play here?

What are the Ws of the thing?

WHO - Who set these wheels in motion with the "fake" certificates and newspaper listings etc?

WHAT - What resources have they had at their disposal to make this happen across so many different jurisdictions?

WHERE - Where are the nefarious forces behind this incredible elaborate conspiracy based? Kenya? Indonesia? If not these two relative backwaters (especially around the time of O's birth) then what other country?

WHEN - When were Obama's parents selected to be the one who would birth this child outside of the US?

WHY - To what end is all of this being done? What is the endgame of this conspiracy.


And please, don't give me any of this nonsense about it not being about some grand conspiracy; that you are only concerned about the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief. That is exceedingly dishonest in that the narrative woven by the Birthers is, by definition, a conspiracy. It also happens to be the most elaborate and convoluted long-term conspiracy in history, making the JFK assasination, Roswell and even 9-11 look like three card monte by comparison.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by RobertAntonWeishaupt]

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
All right, so I will grant that IF Obama were not a natural born citizen (which I believe him to be for better or worse), that he would not be eligible to be president. Fine. Noted and Accepted. This would theoretically invalidate his actions as president. Incidentally, the Birthers seem to unanimously agree that O's policies are the worst thing to happen to this nation in the history of anything. So why would O's controllers create this SNAFU which would allow their diabolical works to be undone?

I will break down my question thusly: what is the Agenda behind the elaborate machinations that the Birther movement seems to believe are at play here?

What are the Ws of the thing?

WHO - Who set these wheels in motion with the "fake" certificates and newspaper listings etc?

WHAT - What resources have they had at their disposal to make this happen across so many different jurisdictions?

WHERE - Where are the nefarious forces behind this incredible elaborate conspiracy based? Kenya? Indonesia? If not these two relative backwaters (especially around the time of O's birth) then what other country?

WHEN - When were Obama's parents selected to be the one who would birth this child outside of the US?

WHY - To what end is all of this being done? What is the endgame of this conspiracy.


And please, don't give me any of this nonsense about it not being about some grand conspiracy; that you are only concerned about the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief. That is exceedingly dishonest in that the narrative woven by the Birthers is, by definition, a conspiracy. It also happens to be the most elaborate and convoluted long-term conspiracy in history, making the JFK assasination, Roswell and even 9-11 look like three card monte by comparison.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by RobertAntonWeishaupt]

You have approached the matter in such a way as to marginalize the honesty of the questions you raise.

Your post is actually quite relevant, assuming we don;t get into the nonsensical partisan or racial distractions.

With all due respect, I would like to address your comments with diving into the world of ugly divisiveness, but you couched the comments so strongly it is difficult to avoid seeming like I'm either a "Birther' or "Non-Birther" (or whatever you would call the counter part.

Incidentally, the Birthers seem to unanimously agree that O's policies are the worst thing to happen to this nation in the history of anything.

I suppose you have garnered enough "Birther"opinions to generalize like this. While I have my questions regarding the process that left this issue open, I can tell you that - even if I qualify by your standards as a 'Birther" I do not agree that his policies are the worst things to happen.

I insist instead that I have yet to witness many instances of a President actually 'authoring' policies at all. It's all about political cabals, associated influences, and interests that are nearly immaterial to the person who occupies the Presidential seat. Party affiliation is nearly irrelevant when the motive force behind policy-making has nothing to do with politics.

So why would O's controllers create this SNAFU which would allow their diabolical works to be undone?

Excellent question. There were those who were obliged to carry out the necessary due diligence to avoid the problem. They either chose not to, or were unable to carry it out. I dare say it is unbelievable that they simply 'forgot'.

I'm not sure who in the party would have wanted this thorn in the presidents side to persist. Nor can I imagine any benefit for a party member to encourage them to let it pass. I have the same questions - and no real data with which to answer it.

WHO - Who set these wheels in motion with the "fake" certificates and newspaper listings etc?

This could be everyone from political opponent's to sick hoaxers, from yellow journalists, to mainstream media generating sensationalism for their bottom line. It could be any of a number of people, across several purposes.

But it must be noted that it WAS done. Someone purposefully 'stoked' this fire.

WHAT - What resources have they had at their disposal to make this happen across so many different jurisdictions?

This question presupposes coordination. Their is an old adage that proclaims that in politics everything is theater, everything is scripted and produced for the voters consumption. That being the case I would lend my vote to the notion that BOTH sides contributed to this.

One side wants to diminish the presidential image, the other wants to increase the prestige by demonstrating how they can debunk ANYTHING thrown their way. It's a political win-win. Hence my cynicism that these two groups are not simply enjoying the production.....

WHERE - Where are the nefarious forces behind this incredible elaborate conspiracy based? Kenya? Indonesia? If not these two relative backwaters (especially around the time of O's birth) then what other country?

Only the very naive fail to recognize that any theoretical 'forces' would be anywhere else but inside our own political party system. Follow the money and you will see that the only 'nefarious' forces in this world are transnational and have no 'home' because they 'own' the planet (at least that's the framework in which they work.)

WHEN - When were Obama's parents selected to be the one who would birth this child outside of the US?

I suppose this is a jab at the addle-minded "Birthers" so I can't offer a meaningful answer. Is this supposed to imply that "Birthers" all see the president as some sort of biblical apocalyptic plant?

WHY - To what end is all of this being done? What is the endgame of this conspiracy.

Control. Power. Permanence.

That's all "it" has EVER been about.

And please, don't give me any of this nonsense about it not being about some grand conspiracy; that you are only concerned about the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief. That is exceedingly dishonest in that the narrative woven by the Birthers is, by definition, a conspiracy. It also happens to be the most elaborate and convoluted long-term conspiracy in history, making the JFK assasination, Roswell and even 9-11 look like three card monte by comparison.

Unfortunately, this is the "Political Madness" at work.

It is ignorant to demand that no one can be legitimately concerned about due process and the law. The rest of your comments are not really something I intend to spend time addressing. Don't be offended - if that's at all possible.

reply to post by Maxmars

Control. Power. Permanence.

This is my concern right here. How would annointing a Kenyan child born in 1963 to be a future president of the United States and then setting out to fake his citizenship for 4 decades provide anyone with Power or Control, let alone with any Permanence?

The reason that I assume coordination is that the story woven by the Birther movement requires coordination to have happened in the manner that they imply.

The goals of Control, Power and Permanence would be far better served by recruiting, grooming and supporting a bona fide American.

If you are hinting that the Obama birth certificate debacle has been cooked up to distract America from real problems and concerns, than I completely and absolutely agree with you.

My refusal to acknowledge the suggestion that it is just a matter of principle is simple. The vehemence of this particular movement is out of whack with a mere concern for truth that is ultimately immaterial to the problems that we face today. It suggests that they believe that there is a direct causality between O's origins and our current situation.

I would like to either better understand their suggested causality, or have them admit that the whole story is so bizarre that it could only be a distraction from the real games being played.

reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt

This is my concern right here. How would annointing a Kenyan child born in 1963 to be a future president of the United States and then setting out to fake his citizenship for 4 decades provide anyone with Power or Control, let alone with any Permanence?

My theory is only mine (an opinion) -

It does not pertain to the BC issue - but to the political arena as a whole - the BC issue will go away in years to come .... the D/R political monopoly seems permanent...

The way such a theatrical contrivance, or sensationalized friction works to engender continued power, control, and permanence, is to keep us focused on a make-believe chain of command, with players who are there only to provide the citizens with a reason to think that they have some influence over their governance.

We don't.

We haven't for about a century now, and even before then, it was a constant struggle to seize even the slightest control from the robber barons and oligarchs.

I am sorry it is so - but "politics" has BECOME conspiracy. Of this, I have no doubt.

[edit on 14-10-2009 by Maxmars]

reply to post by Maxmars


Ok. I get where you're coming from now, and it is not so different from myself. I also feel that international and national politics is a form of highly symbolic theater; a way of announcing to the world the decisions made behind the scenes by the people with real power. All of which is part of what they think of as nothing more than elaborate game.

Along with the periodic interactive performance art pieces (elections), there are the Spectacle Pieces designed to razzle-dazzle and strongly manipulate the audience. 9-11 was one such example. "Minor" wars (anything short of World Wars in the modern era) are another. I think the Birth Certificate Debacle and the various movements it has incited are another (though far smaller than my other examples).

Since I will never get to play the game behind the scenes, I choose to look at the conventions of control, and following the logic of their constructs adress the falacies as if they were real. With a little luck, logic will tear down the fascade and help unsuspend our disbelief.

My question about the Birther Movement comes off as hostile not because I have some love for O and can't stand to have his credentials doubted, but because I can't believe that people are so dedicated to perpetuating such an obvious gambit.

reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt


I agree entirely. In fact, I am offended not so much by the outrageous accusations and theatrics as by the persistence of intrigue where there really shouldn't be any in the first place.

Sometimes I wonder how we are ever going to dissuade the common man (so to speak) - our peers - to understand that we are continuously being indoctrinated into the 'team player' group-think paradigm which has never served us well.

Perhaps I am too cynical at times, but I think when I consider the political parties, the landscape, and the tools they use to slather their doctrine about, that in fact it's more of an 'us' vs. 'them' situation, with the 'them' being those who offer up 'heroes' and 'role-models' for our consumption.

Unfortunately, the selected 'heroes' and 'role-models' gleefully participate since the spot light is on them, and they are cared for for the rest of their lives.... and so are their kids, for the most part.

Meanwhile we bash each other over passing BS that 'they' are hell bent on convincing us is what 'matters'.

In the "Birther" stage-play I have been among those who are not concerned about the technicality of our President (who I personally find ill-suited for this task) being potentially ineligible, I am concerned at the blatant disregard for the processes to which the parties pretend to adhere. Someone pooped the bed on this point, and STILL to this day, the focus is not on who that was, but on the hatred that the adherents of one form of ideology can spew.

What I do not understand is why not just show the long form birth certificate and end it. If your citizenship is in question just prove everyone wrong already and end this huge debacle.

Ordinary citizens have to show their birth certificate for a whole range of services. Registering for college, lost social security card, proving our citizenship at a job we have landed.

Obama has spent more than a million dollars defending lawsuits when he could have just shown a birth certificate and been done with it months ago and we wouldnt have to worry about it.

You dont spend that kind of money to defend a $10 birth certificate it just does not make sense. I dont care if you love him or hate him, if you dont have something to hide than just show it!

Personally, I dont like Biden any better than Obama. Biden is a self admitted Zionist and we all know what kind of people they are. But the issue here is that, if he is ineligible to be president, and is allowed to continue his term without having to prove anything he is being questioned about, what is to prevent an Arnold Schwarzenegger type from becoming president one day. The precedent will have been set.

This little issue of a birth certificate is proof positive in my view that the american government "by and for the people" is no longer that. When judges rule that nobody has standing to challenge the presidents constitutional authority (which is granted by us!) than Washington DC ceases to become a legitimite government because they are not representing the people and we are not allowed to have a redress of grievances against them.

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Control. Power. Permanence.

This is my concern right here. How would annointing a Kenyan child born in 1963 to be a future president of the United States and then setting out to fake his citizenship for 4 decades provide anyone with Power or Control, let alone with any Permanence?

The reason that I assume coordination is that the story woven by the Birther movement requires coordination to have happened in the manner that they imply.

The goals of Control, Power and Permanence would be far better served by recruiting, grooming and supporting a bona fide American.

If you are hinting that the Obama birth certificate debacle has been cooked up to distract America from real problems and concerns, than I completely and absolutely agree with you.

My refusal to acknowledge the suggestion that it is just a matter of principle is simple. The vehemence of this particular movement is out of whack with a mere concern for truth that is ultimately immaterial to the problems that we face today. It suggests that they believe that there is a direct causality between O's origins and our current situation.

I would like to either better understand their suggested causality, or have them admit that the whole story is so bizarre that it could only be a distraction from the real games being played.

I don't think I am a "birther" but if it were me that didn't believe he was born here and that the Birth Cert. was false, I would Not think that he was grommed from Birth to be the President.
I would however believe that the records were Changed once he was selected to represent the TPTB.
I do think it is silly to Think that the "Real" birth cert. will be found. If it is true that he was Not born in the U.S. the origional cert. will have been destroyed period.

reply to post by BlesUTP


There are two very real legitimate reasons why the form may not be produced.

1) He (personally) doesn't want to. All matters of social obligation aside, that is his right. We may agree that more stringent standards should apply, or we may feel that it should be so, but i8n the end, personal freedom MUST prevail - or we ALL lose. Legislation can be implemented to change the statutory regulations, but such is not the case now. The other reason could be ....

2) He can't. You know, it is possible that our president (who was very young at the time) never kept such records, nor expected to need to have to produce them - considering the State has a mandate to keep those records whether you do or not.

The failure in either case is not something which we should punish the president for because it is systemic - not personal.

Unless of course there is some kind of real evidence to the contrary, I will give him the benefit of the doubt, because I believe that is the spirit in which we should operate in our country.

Presume innocence, and PROVE guilt.
You cannot presume criminal activity, it must be proved.
Means, motive, and opportunity are key to the issue.

My point however is that this is all irrelevant. The problem is not our president, the problem is what our political parties have become and whom they serve. The rest is distraction.

I asked some of the same questions a while back during the height of the birther ( I prefer Obama denier) craze on ATS.
I only got a few replies, mostly "his handlers" and "the Democrats" did it.
I think the whole birther thing is ridiculous, and merely a pathetic attempt to unseat a guy they hate, simply because "their side" lost the election.

reply to post by BlesUTP

What I do not understand is why not just show the long form birth certificate and end it. If your citizenship is in question just prove everyone wrong already and end this huge debacle.

Two possible answers to this one. One "In Game" and one that acknowledges the game itself.

Within the rules of the game, the logical reason not to provide the Long form is that O's doubters and detractors will simply refuse to accept it, calling it a forgery and a fake and citing the time its taken to reveal the cert as proof positive that it is not real.

Now, acknowledging the game which the powers are playing, the reason not to reveal it is to keep the nonsensical controversy alive and kicking. Keep those waters muddy and the people divided. The beast with a thousand arms and what not.

Ordinary citizens have to show their birth certificate for a whole range of services. Registering for college, lost social security card, proving our citizenship at a job we have landed.

The short form O has revealed already would be enough for all of the situations listed here. I'm not defending O, just trying to put to rest a senseless canard.

Remember that no one named 'Obama' has ever been born in any Hawaiian hospital. Anyone who thinks they have evidence to the contrary, please show the hospital records and state the hospital. Barack himself has named two different Hawaiian hospitals for his birth so far, and both hospitals have denied his claims.

Originally posted by roadtoad
Remember that no one named 'Obama' has ever been born in any Hawaiian hospital. Anyone who thinks they have evidence to the contrary, please show the hospital records and state the hospital. Barack himself has named two different Hawaiian hospitals for his birth so far, and both hospitals have denied his claims.

While I am reticent to indulge in this controversy, how do you know this?

Granted his name changed, but I am inferring your extending that sentiment to indicate that he, himself was never born in any hospital in Hawaii. I understand the nature of the observation for what it is. But the question remains. How do you know this?

And would you please let me know about these hospital denials? I haven't seen those either.

I'm honestly hoping you can oblige, because repetition of uncorroborated claims is sort of lame.

reply to post by Maxmars



Very good points, I agree that we must recognize the same rights in others that we demand ourselves.

It's just such a silly problem in the first place with a very simple answer that got blown way out of proportion. I guess its just hard to understand why the citizens of this country are expected to show a BC and the man who is the president is somehow exempt.

While racists and republicans are actively doing anything they can to discredit Obama and get him out, I dont believe that everyone who questions his legitimacy can be labeled as such.

reply to post by RobertAntonWeishaupt

"My refusal to acknowledge the suggestion that it is just a matter of principle is simple. The vehemence of this particular movement is out of whack with a mere concern for truth that is ultimately immaterial to the problems that we face today. It suggests that they believe that there is a direct causality between O's origins and our current situation."

You have just simply made a false assumption. Zero found himself in "the right place at the right time" and he and his minions have attempted to cover up the fact that he was most likely NOT born in the U.S., may not be a U.S. citizen, is in fact either an Indonesian or Kenyan, received grant money as a foreign student at Occidental College...and on and on and on.

The thing that gripes me is that everyone seems to focus on the birth Certificate and not on the MASSIVE effort he has made to cover up not only that but everything else that might shed light on his real past. I might add to possibly include the murder of a man in D.C. who was investigating the State Department contractor that was caught "scrubbing" Zero's passport records.

I really appreciate the questions being asked here. Very good discussion.

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
WHY - To what end is all of this being done?

I have another "why" question. WHY was Obama's birthplace questioned in the first place? Before he released his short form. Before anyone was talking about it. Before the word "birther" existed. Maybe it's a "How" question. HOW did this get started and WHAT was the initial suspicious piece of information?

reply to post by expat2368

You have just simply made a false assumption. Zero found himself in "the right place at the right time" and he and his minions have attempted to cover up the fact that he was most likely NOT born in the U.S., may not be a U.S. citizen, is in fact either an Indonesian or Kenyan, received grant money as a foreign student at Occidental College...and on and on and on.

This is an excellent response that puts the issue in a better light. I think that a lot of people have gotten so wrapped up in the hunt for a birth certificate that increasingly ominous intent has been attributed to this entire sorry debacle. There is always this suggestion that his foreignness poses some dire threat to the nation. This impression of threat is generally expanded into a conspiracy that would appear to date back to his birth.

Framing it as you have makes a heck of a lot more sense than the raging anger I see come from a lot of "Birthers".

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I really appreciate the questions being asked here. Very good discussion.

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
WHY - To what end is all of this being done?

I have another "why" question. WHY was Obama's birthplace questioned in the first place? Before he released his short form. Before anyone was talking about it. Before the word "birther" existed. Maybe it's a "How" question. HOW did this get started and WHAT was the initial suspicious piece of information?

It would be interesting to examine this chronologically. Frankly the whole campaign is a blur to me. I recall McCain's Panamanian birth having been questioned first, but I'm not sure. Perhaps the issue came up as a quid pro quo sort of thing? In the political tit-for-tat world, it seemed so predictably trite at the time I just tuned it out.

Of course, then the media went and turned up the volume....

Im not what you would refer to as a "birther" but I'll try to explain what they probably assumed:

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
WHO - Who set these wheels in motion with the "fake" certificates and newspaper listings etc?

Obama's elite handlers released it for him. They also got the Hawaiian state health department, including the director, to verify his fake Hawaiian birth certificate so they must be in the conspiracy.

...Also... considering Obama was born in Kenya, somehow the Hawaiian state government managed to get a hold of his original Kenyan long form birth certificate... but we have no idea how Hawaii came to possess and vaulted Kenyan BC.... that should really be vaulted in Kenya, not Hawaii.... since he was born there.

WHAT - What resources have they had at their disposal to make this happen across so many different jurisdictions?

A good 48years.... a witch doctor.... some glue and crayons.... and a team of hollywood writers.....

.....ah... this video should explain better than I can:

WHERE - Where are the nefarious forces behind this incredible elaborate conspiracy based?

They are the wealthy elite who sit around a table with the picture of "earth" behind them and a projector the front where they plan and scheme the demise of conservative america..... they are located in a big building on Park avenue, Denver Colorado.... the password is "noodles".

WHEN - When were Obama's parents selected to be the one who would birth this child outside of the US?

That video above should explain.... Obamas mother was brainwashed... and Obamas "kenyan" father is not really his father... its malcolm X..... a natural born american citizen.... thats why Obama is not natural born

WHY - To what end is all of this being done? What is the endgame of this conspiracy.

It was just an idea the guys back in Denver Colorado figured out.... after all... the odds of getting a black into the presidence by 2009 were very high.

That should explain it for you.



[edit on 14-10-2009 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Thank you for reminding us all why we can't discuss these matters outside the Political Madness forum....

If you want to contribute, do so. Otherwise start a parody thread, which this wasn't.

RobertAntonWeishaupt made a reasonable concession to start a serious dialog with people who ostensible weren't addicted to the partisanship game regarding this matter.

Apparently, you weren't paying attention.