Michel Moore gets destroyed in a debate about capitalism

I don't have a problem with capitalism as long as society realizes that certain people are not capable of functioning within that system due to other factors so much so that the capitalist society should extend help to those people if they cannot afford the basic amenities such as food, clothing, medical, shelter, water and education. If there is a social system to help those in need, capitalism is fine for everyone else participating in it. Hence why taxation is good if the taxes are used to help those in need.

If we simply let the less fortunate suffer in poverty then capitalism is broken, and not worth it because it creates poverty for those who can't function within it.

That said, the real problem now is corruption, greed and immorality at the helm of government and international banks where less and less money trickles downward. That in itself is enough to kill capitalism. Money is like water and needs to flow, and rain at times.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
IThe problem we have today is government collusion with corporations. It's not capitalism, where anyone could make a business and the government would stay out of it.

This is one of Michael Moore's main points, clear from the last section of the posted video. He says that government is too involved in backing big corporations, that people should be in control of this, and bring this practice to a halt -- through more government regulation driven by public protest.

But he also says that, without government regulation, capitalism evolves into corporate autocracy. Without government checks, corporations would eventually eliminate their competition, establish monopolies, reduce the diversity of options.

Basically, I see Moore's position to be that of regulating big corporations. Period.

The video doesn't go into a lot of detail as to what those rules might be, but the basic premise looks right to me: capitalism can not run without any checks. Which is pretty much what we have right now, so what is the big deal here?

reply to post by Axial Leader


Glad to see that I am not the only one who had this reaction to the video. I personally have never seen any of his movies. They do not play anywhere near where I live and had heard so much negativity on him that I just didn't rent the videos. But now after seeing him briefly on Hannity, looking at his website, and now this video, my curiostiy to say the least is up and perhaps I should take another look. From what I am hearing maybe the movie should have been Corporatism a Love Story Instead. I definitely think people should make profit off of their work and have always considered myself to agree with capitalism, but right now I really feel that some of these big corporations are going to lead to the demise of America. Maybe I need to wake up a little "Moore" and watch this movie. Will look for it on video when it comes around here.

Because Capitalism is sponsored by corporations

Originally posted by ldyserenity
I really don't think he got destroyed by this little college punk who absolutely has no concept of the way things are really run or even what the he** Michela Moore is saying in his movie. I have seen his movies and know he is against the corporations and I am sure that is really the message in this movie, about how capatilism has not truly been a "Free market" For at least the past 20 years. He is not a stupid man. And Those of you who say he's advocating socialism, Where in he H*** does he ever say that???? You are putting words in his mouth. He's about fairness but of course, if you're about fairnes, you must be a socialist, Right? Some of the stupidity I see here makes me see why we're clearly heading down the toilet as a country.

When you just hand over the rights of how to run a company to the people who work for you that is SOCIALISM. so yeah, he is a socialist.

My grandfather has worked his butt off for years to get our company to where it is today. We own one of the larger construction comanies that does repair work in this state. The man dropped out of middle school and worked with his father in a public market (kinda like a supermarket) selling fruits and veggies until he had enough money to do what he does now. And by Michael Moore's way of things, the people that we employ would have the right to tell us what to do with how the company is run. Why should we? Its not their company? They didnt drop out of middle school and bust their butts for this, he did tho and now he is suppossed to just hand it over? I dont think so.

Here is the definition of socialism
www.merriam-webster.com...

If you dont think that is what Moore is advocating than you I guess completely missed that reading comprehension part of school.

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

And if you call handing over control of a company that you worked your whole life towards getting than that is not "fairness"...thats called robbery.

Capitalism has one main problem:

It spirals into a state of affairs where nobody can get anything done that the rich don't want. Why? Because the rich own the corporations, the rich own the land, the rich own the politicians, the rich own the media, so the rich get what they want. Just as importantly, the rich get what you don't want - greater consolidation of their power.

Today you must make an appeal to a large corporation to find a job. You must get a license from the state to work there. You must pay taxes out the wazoo because you can't hire a team of lawyers to find the loopholes. You must borrow money at interest because you're not wealthy enough to pay your house off with a check. You must borrow money to send your kids to school, because college is only for the rich. Every time you turn around you find out that the corporations and the elites that own them have ridiculous advantage, and the people of this world who produce all the goods and services are paying a poor tax on everything in life.

Capitalism is based on the idea that to be anybody in this world, you've got to have money first. Isn't that undemocratic? Doesn't that put a newborn in a disadvantaged position? Think about it. What if they want land? Too bad... it's all been bought up. And if you want to take a piece of someone else's, you're going to have to put your labor (the only thing you own) up on a bidding block to get a job which pays nothing so that you can work your entire life just to (maybe) buy a tiny little piece of it.

Something is terribly terribly wrong. Why do people hold fast to the idea of capitalism like they hold onto religions?

There are much better solutions out there, and the answer is not a "communism vs capitalism" debate. These two choices have been thrust in our face to blind us to the possibilities. They've convinced the public that the only way to organize society is based on a spectrum between two very bad philosophies. There is a third way. (And a fourth, and a fifth...)

I see person after person attempt to laud the virtues of capitalism, but what I hear instead of a comment on the philosophy, is a drawn-out description of how hard they've worked their whole life, and the expectation that they deserve some luxuries and comforts for it... and they'll be damned if anyone is going to take that away from them. I have something to say to those people: you DO deserve so much. When people talk about the "rich" don't flatter yourself. They're not talking about you! Do you rub shoulders with world leaders? Do you create laws? Do you have assets pushing 10 figures? You're not rich!

This isn't about the guy who makes $100k a year being worried that the guy who makes $25k a year is going to take his tax money. It's about the superwealthy deciding for everyone what gets done and how things are going to be, because in a capitalistic world, people don't matter - votes don't matter - only money does. It's a system humanity created. We can un-create it and replace it with something better. Have some imagination, people.

Money was not invented as a tool of freedom, it was created as a weapon.




[edit on 9-10-2009 by 30_seconds]

Capitalism....A love story IS a pun on words guys.

I'm not going to place judgment until I actually SEE the movie but from what I'm seeing in this forum is that Michael Moore is pointing out the Illusion of Freedom in which we all live under.

Yes, the student queries as to the traditional definitions of Capitalism...." is a system of Private Property and Free Market really the problem?"

Moore's response is, that it really isn't a FREE system which is exactly correct.

It is an illusion of a FREE system.

The Corporate sponsored Capitalism is a result of our so called Free Democratic system which is ruled by our elected representatives who supposedly are " For the people, By the People" but in actuality, really only serve their corporate sponsor.

Its no more FREE than our so called Free Democratic elections where we're FREE to choose from only "Approved" bipartisan Coke or Pepsi candidates who don't serve the people who elected them.

But instead only answer to their real masters whom are their largest campaign contributors.

Did any of us vote on the Patriot Act for example or the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan ?

Did we vote on the no bid contracts for Halliburton ?

Did we vote on the Bailouts of the Major Banks who now only thank us by saddling us US taxpayers with higher fees and repossessed homes ?

If you want to experience Free Markets then Stop paying your property taxes and see how FREE you are and who REALLY owns your property !

The concept of freedom AND Free Markets is really an illusion.

We need people like Moore to point this out to the sheep because the MSM certainly won't.

reply to post by Wimbly


This thread is a complete FAILURE!

It is hilarious how you think he was destroyed, please break this down because as another poster already mentioned, your thread actually reemphasizes Moore's perspective.

I have a feeling that your not liking him on a personal level is clouding your judgment. Put the ego aside for a second and stop focusing on "who says it" and instead embrace the truth of his message.

Take a moment and smell the roses. We are in shambles right now and this guy eloquently shows us why.

reply to post by DocEmrick


I second that! I was thinking about seeing his movie at the request of my girlfriend, but decided otherwise after seeing his previews where he keeps shouting into the megaphone in that whiny, obnoxious, annoying tone "We want our money back." Wow, he suddenly made Alex Jones and his annoying megaphone stunts somewhat bearable...

reply to post by kozmo

If the government had enforced anti-trust laws and destroyed monopolies as required under Capitalism, the corporatism would not have evolved. You're on the right track here

Isnt enforcing anti-trust laws a form of regulation? This is the kind of regulation that is needed in order to keep corporations in check. There is so much room for abuse and loop holes for a large corporation and because they are responsible to the bottom line and share holders, corporations will do whatever they have to do in order to improve upon both of those.

[edit on 9-10-2009 by iamcamouflage]

reply to post by dizzie56


Yeah we should all just work all day for free take no breaks and have no say in the way a company is run or have any health benefits offered to us so when we all die from illness or injury, you then have nobody else to work for you, sure let's give you all free reign...let me guess you probably don't believe in having workmen's comp ins either for those guys busting their A** In the heat all day doing work you yourself would never bother trying to do, while you sit and eat big macs and answer phone lines at a desk all day? Oh wait you won't even answer the phone lines that would mean getting your fat A** Off the chair at some point...don't start in about contractor businesses with me, My Hubby is a construction/contractor himself and because of foul practices of businesses like YOUR GRANDFATHERS the prices on licensing to even start contracting businesses is through the roof now...because of your unethical businesses. And all the scams these buinesses have been notorious for!!!!

[edit on 9-10-2009 by ldyserenity]

The title of this thread is ridiculous; he wasn't DESTROYED LOL.

People automatically jump to the big word of the day, Socialism, anytime talk is about government doing more. Government doing more to benefit people instead of doing more to limit people sounds pretty good to me.

I love the part about how he advocates democracy within corporations. He clearly has no idea how businesses operate. Wave goodbye to your fancy cell phones, air-conditioned cars, and designer clothes. These companies would grind to a halt the day after that policy was implemented.

Could you even imagine if every decision the company made had to be voted on by the entire workforce? Millions of dollars would be spent drafting up proposals, and then in the blink of an eye they would become worthless with a negative vote. Talk about a money suck. The economy would come crashing down in burning flames.

Originally posted by paradigm619
I love the part about how he advocates democracy within corporations. He clearly has no idea how businesses operate. Wave goodbye to your fancy cell phones, air-conditioned cars, and designer clothes. These companies would grind to a halt the day after that policy was implemented.

In his film he visits a company run exactly in that manner. The CEO makes less and the employees make far more than the average.

I liked when Moore was talking about 'democracy' in the work place, saying wouldn't it be great if workers owned the company they worked for and all had a say in how things were ran?
Isn't that basically communism, or at least the unrealistic ideal of what communism should be? In that private industry is now public, and 'owned and ran' by the working class...even though throughout history it is owned and ran by an evil dictator...

Originally posted by gandhi
Because Capitalism is sponsored by corporations

Couldn't agree more. Moore wasn't destroyed, the questioner tried to imply that there was a difference between corporatism and capitalism and that capitalism was fantastic and corporatism was to blame. This is the typical capitalist denial scapegoating. Moore clearly drew nodistiction between the two, as there is none. One invariably leads to the other, and capitalism invariably leads to mega global corporations where there is no free market and competition is only an illusion because no matter where you shop, it's all owned by the same people. Moore answered his question, but I guess him and a few here are too blind to see that.

You American's are so scared of the word Socialism. Most of you probably have no idea what it is or how it works only that the media has turned it into a curse word.

Quite sad really. The rest of the world is evolving and providing healthcare and education to their citizens but in America how dare they take your precious tax dollars. lol. A country filled with selfish self-interested bumpkins.

Enjoy the fall.

Originally posted by Frogs
Hmmm - its kind of ironic that he would make the film.

With a net worth of around $25mil it would seem that capitalism has worked out pretty well for him..

Michael Moore’s Net Worth: $25 million

I must ask, did he make that profit because people disagree with him or was it born of people wanting to educate themselves to the ills of a corrupt and unfair society?

Maybe you believe those who went to see his movies were only going to study how wrong he is so as to shoot him down in online threads?

Corporatism is born of Capitalism as depicted on the T-shirt worn by the very student asking the questions in this clip.

As for Moore being destroyed, I feel the OP is grasping at straws, Moore does not have all the answers, but he does know whats wrong and his aim is to ensure that more and more people see this especially the generations to come that will be nothing more than corporate slaves.

reply to post by Wimbly


Moore wants to turn the USA into Canada.
More socialism - less capitalism
I think he should move to Vancouver or Prince Edward Island
and stay there.
Free Health and High Taxes!

Moore is so off base it's not even funny. I just loved the big Democrat sign behind him as he was talking about capitalism, and how wonderful France is, and so on... He says he doesn't want socialism but it's obvious he does. Just using France as an example is proof.
Socialism is just as easily corruptible as Capitalism. Both can be subject to corporate interests. This student is absolutely correct, and Moore a fool. Most of our problems would be fixed with getting rid of the Federal Reserve, putting a sound monetary system in place, and getting rid of lobbyists. Lets address these problems first then see where we are before we decide if we want socialism.