Are These Men About to Start the Revolution?

Originally posted by EMPIRE

First off, who are you? Secondly, are you the guy all the ex-soldiers and vets sent to answer for them? Finally, I don’t have a convoluted thinking process, you and others share this trait.

1. You'll need to be more specific in the information you require as to my identity. What is it you're asking for? Name? Address? Family history and blood type? Where I've fought, and who for? A "who are you?" question is just too broad.

2. As much so as you are the guy who the whole government sent to speak for them.

3. I'll wait for you to specify the "convolutions" in my thought processes. Mind if I grab a beer while I wait?

What, in your view, are the "sides"? I don't do government work any more, so I can't see myself being on their "side".

The sides are the people and the government.

Well, at least we see the same sides forming up. It's a start, I reckon.

Government vs. populace. Are you seeing other "sides", perhaps? From what I hear, most of the government "muscle" won't even be on their "side". Some, but not most.

Where are you hearing this from? Youtube? Myspace? ATS? Oh I get it, you and private dooper represent all of the vets and ex-soldiers. Got it.

I hear it from vets and active duty soldiers. Yeah, I get up off my ass and out into the world every now and then. You should try it - it might open your eyes, and untangle your thought processes.

No, I’ll just get on Youtube and watch the rednecks make more vids while NOTHING happens.Better yet, I'll wait for members of the USS PENELOPE to fill me in on the juciest parts. FAIL.

Based on your condescending definition of "rednecks", I must deduce that you are what those "rednecks" call a "tree-huggin', Birkenstock wearin', Granola munchin' hippie". Based on that I have a better grasp of your utter and complete lack of understanding of human dyamics as bear on the matter of conflict. I pity you, but damned if I'll stick MY neck out to haul your fat out of the fire. I'm here to protect innocent folks, not willfully ignorant ones.

When it hits, better stay inside, because outside you'll be in a WORLD of hurt. You can huddle in a corner, close your eyes, and put your hands over your ears and chant "NOTHING is happening! NOTHING is happening!" while your world falls apart and realigns itself.

Thanks for the mention of the Penelope. At least I know we're being read! Means a lot to a writer.

Ciao, baby!



[edit on 2009/10/6 by nenothtu]

as thomas jefferson once said. a little revolution now and then is a good thing.
Just remember that revolution does not have to be violent.

I pledge allegiance, to the rag, of the Un-United States of America
And to the Plutocracy, for which it stands
One nation, no longer under God
Divisible, with imprisonment and injustice for all.

Can someone help me put my new pledge in my sig?

Originally posted by nenothtu

1. You'll need to be more specific in the information you require as to my identity. What is it you're asking for? Name? Address? Family history and blood type? Where I've fought, and who for? A "who are you?" question is just too broad.

Who are you…meaning…why am I devoting any energy to anything you’re saying.

2. As much so as you are the guy who the whole government sent to speak for them.

The government hasn’t sent me to do anything which is why you don’t see me supporting the government. You see me supporting logic and reality, not some wacky scheme by those who have nothing much to live or show for.

3. I'll wait for you to specify the "convolutions" in my thought processes. Mind if I grab a beer while I wait?

I’ve already done so. However, it is not my fault if you lack the basic cognitive skills necessary to see this.

Well, at least we see the same sides forming up. It's a start, I reckon

Many posts ago I already said what you guys, the dooms dayers and red necks, said both sides are. However, if you pay close attention, you’ll see that I said the only thing that will happen is people fighting people not people fighting the government..

I hear it from vets and active duty soldiers. Yeah, I get up off my ass and out into the world every now and then. You should try it - it might open your eyes, and untangle your thought processes.

I hear the exact opposite from vets and active duty soldiers. And that’s nice that you get off your backside and into the real world now and then. I’ve been a member of this site for over three years now and only recently made my very first post, so I know what it is like to be in the real world and not tangle up in fantasy.

Based on your condescending definition of "rednecks", I must deduce that you are what those "rednecks" call a "tree-huggin', Birkenstock wearin', Granola munchin' hippie".

Absolutely not my friend, and I don’t have a condescending definition of rednecks.

Based on that I have a better grasp of your utter and complete lack of understanding of human dyamics as bear on the matter of conflict.

Do we need to go into basic psychology, how group think will actually prevent any uprising from happening, and how Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs will prevent an uprising from happening? Yes, why don’t we just go ahead and go into the understanding of human dynamics and behavior as it relates to conflict. Let us indulge in lizard brain and the fight or flight response of the average American citizen (or soldier if you will.) You’re outgunned here man, move on and talk about something else like your side arm or the latest scope you attached to your bb gun.

I pity you, but damned if I'll stick MY neck out to haul your fat out of the fire. I'm here to protect innocent folks, not willfully ignorant ones.

I thank you for that, and if I saw you in a position of being down and out I would not hesitate to help you out. It simply isn’t in my nature or philosophy to see people hurt and not help them. However, nothing is going to happen, and if something does happen, it won’t be us VS them, but us VS us. They’ll simply sit back and clean up the scraps when they are good and ready.

When it hits, better stay inside, because outside you'll be in a WORLD of hurt. You can huddle in a corner, close your eyes, and put your hands over your ears and chant "NOTHING is happening! NOTHING is happening!" while your world falls apart and realigns itself.

That sounds like something straight out of Alice in Wonderland. Lay off the classics, man.

Thanks for the mention of the Penelope. At least I know we're being read! Means a lot to a writer.Ciao, baby

It looked liked something out of Star Trek, I just had to Google it.


[edit on 6-10-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by bsbray11


the other 10% was probably busy betting on put options, and buying up devalued stocks, eh?
good'ole history never wars without it's profiteers.

reply to post by EMPIRE

Your assumption is that nothing will happen because folks are too "complacent and weak?"

What kind of slack-jawed, lisping panty-waists do you hang around with?

Oh. Never mind.

This is starting to come together.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I pledge allegiance, to the rag, of the Un-United States of America
And to the Plutocracy, for which it stands
One nation, no longer under God
Divisible, with imprisonment and injustice for all.

Can someone help me put my new pledge in my sig?

It'll probably fit better if you double up the lines and use semicolons such that you have only two or three lines of text.

Who are you…meaning…why am I devoting any energy to anything you’re saying.

How would I know why you do what you do? If it helps to categorize me, I'm around 50 years old, and have participated in 5 conflicts, none under the US flag. What can I say? I was an idealist when I was younger, now I'm just a bitter old cynic.

2. As much so as you are the guy who the whole government sent to speak for them.

The government hasn’t sent me to do anything which is why you don’t see me supporting the government. You see me supporting logic and reality, not some wacky scheme by those who have nothing much to live or show for.

I see you denying the possibility that it could happen, contrary to logic and reality, which both have a way of catching up to one at inopportune moments. I can take you to the graves of folks who said "it will never happen". Then it did. They too were in denial, and got the surprise of their curtailed lives.

You'll note that, although I'm among those "rednecks" you speak of, I haven't supported any "wacky schemes" detailed here. I DO, however, realize that it CAN happen here, just as anywhere else. Furthermore, I believe it WILL happen here, given the current, and deteriorating, climate. Doesn't mean I support it, or want it. It's gonna be bloody, and a lot of folks are gonna get hurt. Who in their right mind WANTS that?

What I HAVE said is that I know which side I'll be on. Taken together with my statement that I'm here to protect the innocents in the matter, you may assume what you will about it. You may see that as support if you like, but my view is that inactivity is merely support for the opposition, and I won't be party to that.

3. I'll wait for you to specify the "convolutions" in my thought processes. Mind if I grab a beer while I wait?

I’ve already done so. However, it is not my fault if you lack the basic cognitive skills necessary to see this.

I hate that I missed that. I suppose we'll just have to press onward then, eh?

Well, at least we see the same sides forming up. It's a start, I reckon

Many posts ago I already said what you guys, the dooms dayers and red necks, said both sides are. However, if you pay close attention, you’ll see that I said the only thing that will happen is people fighting people not people fighting the government...

I fall among the redneck category. Doomsdayers are just so.... negative. You think that if the balloon went up, the government would just sit it out? How quaint. Then they'd be in danger from BOTH "sides", having failed to protect either, both would be pretty torqued off that the government didn't ride in to their rescue.

Not a lot of job security for politicians in that.

However, if the government rides in to support either side, well, the unsupported side is most likely going to take exception to that interference.

Contrary to what all the tech savants around here say, there ARE ways to get around technology, not to mention that breakable "stuff" is prone to failure at the least convenient times. They may rely on their technology if they like. I'll rely on resourceful humans. They need to bring plenty of batteries, as their opposition will likely resupply off of them.

I hear it from vets and active duty soldiers. Yeah, I get up off my ass and out into the world every now and then. You should try it - it might open your eyes, and untangle your thought processes.

I hear the exact opposite from vets and active duty soldiers. And that’s nice that you get off your backside and into the real world now and then. I’ve been a member of this site for over three years now and only recently made my very first post, so I know what it is like to be in the real world and not tangle up in fantasy.

I've run into those types from time to time as well. I AM however, surprised that that many survived, and are now apparently concentrated in your area.

Are you, perchance, in Canada?

Denial... fantasy... what's the difference in the final analysis? Will the dead be any less dead, just because you will it to not be so?

Based on your condescending definition of "rednecks", I must deduce that you are what those "rednecks" call a "tree-huggin', Birkenstock wearin', Granola munchin' hippie".

Absolutely not my friend, and I don’t have a condescending definition of rednecks.

I apologize, then. From the way you were throwing the term out, I assumed it to be used in the manner of an epithet, or perjorative. You might better have used the term "militiamen", but then that too can be taken wrong, eh? The term "redneck" usually carries negative connotations these days.

Based on that I have a better grasp of your utter and complete lack of understanding of human dyamics as bear on the matter of conflict.

Do we need to go into basic psychology, how group think will actually prevent any uprising from happening, and how Maslow’s Heirarchy of Needs will prevent an uprising from happening? Yes, why don’t we just go ahead and go into the understanding of human dynamics and behavior as it relates to conflict. Let us indulge in lizard brain and the fight or flight response of the average American citizen (or soldier if you will.) You’re outgunned here man, move on and talk about something else like your side arm or the latest scope you attached to your bb gun.

We can go into that if you like. I'm not entirely unversed in the subject matter, as you appear to assume, going by your use of the term "outgunned here".

I will note that neither groupthink nor Maslowe's Heirarchy have prevented these occurrences in other places, and indeed have at times exacerbated them. Why, pray tell, would it be different here? Are you assuming that Americans have some sort of moral superiority over the remaining denizens of the world who have had to live through it?

My bb gun has only ever had one scope attached to it. Why mess with perfection? I believe in getting it right the first time, wherever possible.

I pity you, but damned if I'll stick MY neck out to haul your fat out of the fire. I'm here to protect innocent folks, not willfully ignorant ones.

I thank you for that, and if I saw you in a position of being down and out I would not hesitate to help you out. It simply isn’t in my nature or philosophy to see people hurt and not help them. However, nothing is going to happen, and if something does happen, it won’t be us VS them, but us VS us. They’ll simply sit back and clean up the scraps when they are good and ready.

Seeing someone in dire straights, and actually going to help out folks that have consistently refused to get themselves ready for adversity simply because "it couldn't happen" are two entirely different things. Why would anyone risk their neck for someone who won't risk his neck for himself?

When it hits, better stay inside, because outside you'll be in a WORLD of hurt. You can huddle in a corner, close your eyes, and put your hands over your ears and chant "NOTHING is happening! NOTHING is happening!" while your world falls apart and realigns itself.

That sounds like something straight out of Alice in Wonderland. Lay off the classics, man.

Never read the book, so I'm unfamiliar with the allusion. Classics give me heartburn, anyhow.

Thanks for the mention of the Penelope. At least I know we're being read! Means a lot to a writer.Ciao, baby

It looked liked something out of Star Trek, I just had to Google it.


[edit on 6-10-2009 by EMPIRE]

We're on Google now? I'll have to check that out.

EDIT: I googled "uss penelope nenothtu" and got 97 hits, mostly to the ATS Space Opera we're writing, but including your post above. Ain't technology grand when it works?

[edit on 2009/10/6 by nenothtu]

reply to post by nenothtu

Your assumption is that nothing will happen because folks are too "complacent and weak?" What kind of slack-jawed, lisping panty-waists do you hang around with? Oh. Never mind. This is starting to come together.

That sounds like something straight out of a Governator movie. Take a look at the average American and you’ll see they are weak and complacent. Approximately 33% are obese, the majority of Americans watch eight hours of TV a day, the majority of Americans are consumers and many Americans are illiterate or functional illiterates which means many Americans most likely lack critical skills. Moreover, take a look at recent history and you’ll see what Americans will fight for…

It'll probably fit better if you double up the lines and use semicolons such that you have only two or three lines of text.

Nah I’ll bleed over it later. For now I just need to know how to add it to my sig.

How would I know why you do what you do? …I was an idealist when I was younger, now I'm just a bitter old cynic.

That, my friend, has absolutely nothing to do with anything I’ve typed.

I see you denying…They too were in denial, and got the surprise of their curtailed lives.

If it happened, it would simply lead to history repeating itself which is exactly the reason why we’re having this conversation right? However, the only thing that may possibly happen is what I previously mentioned. There will never be an uprising that replaces the government and restores the constitution. The people are too fragmented and broken, sorry guy, but this country is F-I-N-I-S-H-E-D.

What I HAVE said is that I know which side I'll be on….You may see that as support if you like, but my view is that inactivity is merely support for the opposition, and I won't be party to that.

It is illogical for me to assume that someone of your position represents all ex-soldiers and vets. I don’t see you as support for any cause, nor do I see you as someone galvanizing the troops for some maniacal run at the government. Are you someone who has convictions and willing to articulate them? Yes, I can give you that, but I will not say you represent all vets and ex-soldiers, nor will I say all vets and ex-soldiers speak as you do.

I hate that I missed that. I suppose we'll just have to press onward then, eh?

Yes, it is a pity.

I fall among the redneck category. Doomsdayers are just so.... negative. You think that if the balloon went up, the government would just sit it out? How quaint….However, if the government rides in to support either side, well, the unsupported side is most likely going to take exception to that interference.

I’d say you fall in both categories because anyone who believes that there will be a new fight pitting the government against the people is most likely a doomsdayer. I mean where do you draw the line. No, the government is not going to ride in and support either side. Their side is not the side of the citizens nor does it entail protecting the best interest of the citizens. If such things were true, we would not be having this exchange right now.

Contrary to what all the tech savants around here say…They need to bring plenty of batteries, as their opposition will likely resupply off of them.

The average American is not prepared to live without technology. The average American is not familiar with how to live off the land. Go to your nearest park and ask twenty people what wild plants are edible, what plants serve medicinal purposes, what insects are high in protein, etc and see what you get. Moreover, the average American would laugh in your face if you told them something similar to what you’re telling me, because many trust the government and can’t think for themselves.

I've run into those types from time to time as well….Will the dead be any less dead, just because you will it to not be so?

No I’m not in Canada, my family has a deep history with the American military and my area of residence has several military bases within a 200 mile radius (some are functional some are defunct.) There is no denial or fantasy on my part. The only ones living in such a world are you and your cohorts who believe it’s patriotic to go down with a sinking ship. By fighting the machine, you’re simply prolonging what will eventually happen—your death, your children’s death and subjugation.

I apologize, then. From the way you were throwing the term out, I assumed it to be used in the manner of an epithet, or perjorative. You might better have used the term "militiamen", but then that too can be taken wrong, eh? The term "redneck" usually carries negative connotations these days.

I am using the term because that is the term most applicable to them. I do not see them as militiamen, but if the term redneck is offensive to you, I’ll meet you halfway and refer to them as “so-called militiamen”, will this work?

We can go into that if you like. I'm not entirely unversed in the subject matter, as you appear to assume, going by your use of the term "outgunned here".

No problem you asked for it.

I will note that neither groupthink nor Maslowe's Heirarchy have prevented these occurrences in other places, and indeed have at times exacerbated them….Americans have some sort of moral superiority over the remaining denizens of the world who have had to live through it?

Let us first address groupthink. When you look at places that have experienced rebellion against the ruling parties, you’ll usually find that these people have something in common with each other as well as the people they’re fighting. Such bonding can be cultural, spiritual or racial harmony. In the case of this country, in this time, the people experience a severe fragmentation in the areas I listed. Honestly, do you think a black man from the ghettoes of Detroit is going to follow one of the guys in the vid? Do you think a Latino from the barrios of L.A. are going to follow one of the guys in the vid? Do you honestly think a national promoting the restoration of Atzlan is going to follow those guys? The people most oppressed are not going to follow the guys in the vid because they don’t identify with them in any way, shape, form or fashion. However, the people in the video do have a connection with the majority of the government.

Concerning Maslow's Hierarchy, all you need to do is limit the base of the pyramid and everything else goes down the toilet. In order for the government to get troops to do what they normally wouldn’t do, they would start at the bottom of the hierarchy and restrict it. In time, the troops will show a willingness to do as ordered and the government would then offer them more incentives in the form of the rest of the pyramid. What I’m telling you is supported by basic psychology, most notably the Milgram experiment. So you can Google that when you have the time.

My bb gun has only ever had one scope attached to it. Why mess with perfection? I believe in getting it right the first time, wherever possible.

Good one. LOL!

Seeing someone in dire straights, and actually going to help out folks that have consistently refused to get themselves ready for adversity simply because "it couldn't happen" are two entirely different things. Why would anyone risk their neck for someone who won't risk his neck for himself?

See this is where you’re wrong. What you’re preparing for, and what I’m preparing for are two different things. IMHO, this country is done, there is no saving her. Therefore, I’m currently taking the steps to remove myself from the situation, and if I am not successful, death is always bliss.

Never read the book, so I'm unfamiliar with the allusion. Classics give me heartburn, anyhow.

Pepto Bismol will help you out my friend.

We're on Google now? I'll have to check that out. EDIT: I googled "uss penelope nenothtu" and got 97 hits, mostly to the ATS Space Opera we're writing, but including your post above. Ain't technology grand when it works?

Yes, technology is grand, you guys ever think of taking the Space Opera to another level?


[edit on 7-10-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Your assumption is that nothing will happen because folks are too "complacent and weak?" What kind of slack-jawed, lisping panty-waists do you hang around with? Oh. Never mind. This is starting to come together.

That sounds like something straight out of a Governator movie. Take a look at the average American and you’ll see they are weak and complacent. Approximately 33% are obese, the majority of Americans watch eight hours of TV a day, the majority of Americans are consumers and many Americans are illiterate or functional illiterates which means many Americans most likely lack critical skills. Moreover, take a look at recent history and you’ll see what Americans will fight for…

The intitial quote was Dooper's, but I'll field the response directed at me.

Granted, but "the average American" wasn't the basis of the discussion, the so-called militia was. Those same average Americans you refer to are the people who will unfortunately be caught in the crossfire between whichever factions are duking it out at the moment. It's a sad thing, but it occurs in EVERY conflict. Those least able to fend for themselves are the same ones who become refugees and victims. It could be argued that all involved are victims to one extent or another, and I'd have to agree with that, but that doesn't mean I have to just lay there and take it.

Nah I’ll bleed over it later. For now I just need to know how to add it to my sig.

Bleed over it? Just go to your profile page, edit it, and copy and paste the quote into your sig field.

That, my friend, has absolutely nothing to do with anything I’ve typed.

It was a response to your "who are you" question, to assist you in categorizing who I am.

If it happened, .... There will never be an uprising that replaces the government and restores the constitution. The people are too fragmented and broken, sorry guy, but this country is F-I-N-I-S-H-E-D.

You can give up on it and accept the collar if you like, it's your right as an American.

It is illogical for me to assume that someone of your position represents all ex-soldiers and vets. I don’t see you as support for any cause, nor do I see you as someone galvanizing the troops for some maniacal run at the government. Are you someone who has convictions and willing to articulate them? Yes, I can give you that, but I will not say you represent all vets and ex-soldiers, nor will I say all vets and ex-soldiers speak as you do.

Nor Have I ever claimed to speak for ALL ex soldiers or vets. Sweeping generalizations are useless things. ALL of any group will never fit into the same precise molds.

Differences of opinion are what keep life interesting, eh?

And no, I'm not galvanizing anyone to do anything. I'm not a leader by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact I make a pretty poor follower too. It's gotten me in trouble before.

I’d say you fall in both categories because anyone who believes that there will be a new fight pitting the government against the people is most likely a doomsdayer. I mean where do you draw the line. No, the government is not going to ride in and support either side. Their side is not the side of the citizens nor does it entail protecting the best interest of the citizens. If such things were true, we would not be having this exchange right now.

It wouldn't be the first government to fall through sheer inactivity then. Inactivity would lead to loss of support by the same "average Americans" mentioned above, who would be getting pummeled for no good reason. It will lead them to ask "if the government can't protect us from THIS, what good are they?" That's one of the basic tenents of guerrila warfare, that PRECISE method of swaying the loyalties of the populace.

No, I think they'd HAVE to weigh in.

The average American is not prepared to live without technology. The average American is not familiar with how to live off the land. Go to your nearest park and ask twenty people what wild plants are edible, what plants serve medicinal purposes, what insects are high in protein, etc and see what you get. Moreover, the average American would laugh in your face if you told them something similar to what you’re telling me, because many trust the government and can’t think for themselves.

Also granted. However, simply because one is UNPREPARED to do something doesn't insure that one will never have to do it. That, my friend, would go even further in eroding support for the government, as in "look how they just left us to die! What good are they?"

No I’m not in Canada, ... are you and your cohorts who believe it’s patriotic to go down with a sinking ship. By fighting the machine, you’re simply prolonging what will eventually happen—your death, your children’s death and subjugation.

It's not that I believe it's patriotic to go down with a sinking ship, it's more that I'm unwilling to continue on after my ship has been swapped for a garbage scow. I would think that "fighting against the machine" is more likely to hasten my death than prolong it. Neither I nor my children will ever taste this subjugation you speak of. Death is of course a different matter.

I am using the term because that is the term most applicable to them. I do not see them as militiamen, but if the term redneck is offensive to you, I’ll meet you halfway and refer to them as “so-called militiamen”, will this work?

I don't find the term offensive in itself. In common with the N word, it's not the word itself, it's how it is applied. You can use whatever terms you prefer. After all, doesn't freedom of speech imply the occaisional need to offend those with differing opinions? It wouldn't need constitutional protection if it never offended anyone.

Let us first address groupthink. ... the people in the video do have a connection with the majority of the government.

You believe then, that no group of Americans can find a commonality? That, in my mind, would be taking the "multiculturalism" and "diversity" notions to an extreme. No group, no mob, starts out fully formed and functional. They grow, and synthesize their ideology as they go. It's always been that way. Groupthink doesn't become an issue until they reach a tipping point, and actions are taken.

Concerning Maslow's Hierarchy, all you need to do is limit the base of the pyramid and everything else goes down the toilet. In order for the government to get troops to do what they normally wouldn’t do, they would start at the bottom of the hierarchy and restrict it. In time, the troops will show a willingness to do as ordered and the government would then offer them more incentives in the form of the rest of the pyramid. What I’m telling you is supported by basic psychology, most notably the Milgram experiment. So you can Google that when you have the time.

If it were that simple, no revolts or unrest would have occurred since Maslow developed his theories. They would have been put into use, and no further unrest would have been possible. The key there may be the time lag between the initial restrictions, and the release of the further incentives down the road. "In time..." Suppose the troops aren't willing to sit quietly throughout the waiting period?

Maslow's hierarchy is a hierarchy of NEEDS, and as such manipulations of them are touchy at best. When the timing is a bit off, folks will take care of their own needs, often to the detriment of the manipulator.

My bb gun has only ever had one scope attached to it. Why mess with perfection? I believe in getting it right the first time, wherever possible.

Good one. LOL!

Thanks. I had a lucid moment, but it passed. LOL

See this is where you’re wrong. What you’re preparing for, and what I’m preparing for are two different things. IMHO, this country is done, there is no saving her. Therefore, I’m currently taking the steps to remove myself from the situation, and if I am not successful, death is always bliss.

Again, throwing in the towel is your right as an American. I wish you all the luck in the world, in all sincerity, in your efforts to remove yourself from the situation. Death may be bliss, but getting there is sometimes pretty uncomfortable. I hope you can avoid an untimely one.

Yes, technology is grand, you guys ever think of taking the Space Opera to another level?

Another level? it goes as it goes, and the nature of the collaborative effort we're making sometimes leads to unpredictable results. At times, the story takes on a life of it's own, we all go on a wild ride, and try to keep up as best we can. It's not all that structured or planned, so I'm not sure we can take it to another level, but it's always possible that it will arrive there nonetheless.



[edit on 2009/10/7 by nenothtu]

I don't think it would be a good idea to start a revolution right now. No matter what all governments keep secrets. These guys aren't suppressive at all so I'm good.

They still haven't been doing a good job at it all around. And it only took one idiot to cheat an election to screw everyone over. Bush. -.-

Originally posted by nenothtu

Another level? it goes as it goes, and the nature of the collaborative effort we're making sometimes leads to unpredictable results. At times, the story takes on a life of it's own, we all go on a wild ride, and try to keep up as best we can. It's not all that structured or planned, so I'm not sure we can take it to another level, but it's always possible that it will arrive there nonetheless.

Just want to thank you for the depth and breadth of your insights. Must feel like talking to school kids. Maybe you are doing just that.

Mike

reply to post by nenothtu

The intitial quote was Dooper's, but I'll field the response directed at me.

You are correct. I’m used to sites with multi-quote features, so thanks for being patient and pointing that out.

Granted, but "the average American" wasn't the basis of the discussion, the so-called militia was.

The average American is highly relevant to this discussion as those who believe an armed revolution will occur believe that it should be done on behalf of the citizens, that citizens will be harmed if nothing is done and that citizens should become more involved.

Those same average Americans you refer to are the people who will unfortunately be caught in the crossfire between whichever factions are duking it out at the moment….I'd have to agree with that, but that doesn't mean I have to just lay there and take it.

This is what I’ve been saying only I’m not saying it will be an “us VS them” situation. What I’ve said several times now is it will be an “us VS us” situation. No you don’t have to lie down and take anything, but what I’m trying to drive home is the battle will not be waged between the government and the citizens, and if it is, the citizens will be crushed in record breaking time know one will even know it was a battle.

Bleed over it? Just go to your profile page, edit it, and copy and paste the quote into your sig field.

“Bleed over it” means correct the typos and what not. I don’t have a sig field in my profile page, and I don’t even have 200 posts yet so that may be the reason why.

You can give up on it and accept the collar if you like, it's your right as an American.

No it’s not giving up and accepting the collar but knowing when to walk away with a bit of dignity and hope intact. I mean seriously, what are you fighting for? What do people fight for? The same things over and over and the cycle never ends. There will be no utopia for your children, your grandchildren, their great grandchildren, etc. The only thing that will change is the faces in the game but the game will remain unchanged.

Nor Have I ever claimed to speak for ALL ex soldiers or vets. Sweeping generalizations are useless things….I'm not a leader by any stretch of the imagination, and in fact I make a pretty poor follower too. It's gotten me in trouble before.

Which is what I’ve been saying. A person can’t say all soldiers will fight in some crazy insurrection. Moreover, all citizens wouldn’t side with them even though what they are fighting for may be in their best interest. However, who is a soldier most likely to follow? Is he most likely to follow the government or the average joe?

It wouldn't be the first government to fall through sheer inactivity then. No, I think they'd HAVE to weigh in.

As I said before, if anything happens it will be a battle of citizens fighting citizens. The government will be waiting for both sides to exhaust themselves, then they will sweep in and destroy whoever is left while implementing full authority. Yes, what you say is a tactic of guerrilla warfare, but that is in places where the guerillas already have an allegiance or support from the public. Now look at the average American citizen. Who does he turn to for his news, information, insight, etc? Who does he look to in time of need or protection? Does he look to the government or these so-called militiamen?

Also granted. That, my friend, would go even further in eroding support for the government, as in "look how they just left us to die! What good are they?"

What are the chances of long term survival or being successful when it comes to doing something you’re unprepared for? Contrary to what you’re saying, if there was a battle between citizens and the gov, that would be the right time the government would step in, offer help, and in return get those citizens to squash the other citizens operating in rebellion.

It's not that I believe it's patriotic to go down with a sinking ship, it's more that I'm unwilling to continue on after my ship has been swapped for a garbage scow….Death is of course a different matter.

So why fight? What intrinsic or extrinsic value compells you to fight a loosing battle? This is different from mutual combat or fighting some guy who breaks into your home. In those cases I say go down swinging, even if they have weapons. But in this case, it is futile to wage war against them.

I don't find the term offensive in itself. In common with the N word, it's not the word itself, it's how it is applied. It wouldn't need constitutional protection if it never offended anyone.

I won’t use it because you mentioned it and because I don’t want anyone flagging me for being offensive.

You believe then, that no group of Americans can find a commonality?

Yes they can. Via the idiot box, artificial commonality is marketed and promoted to them 24-7. Aside from that, the people are too fragmented and egotistical to put their differences aside and accept the most basic of commonalities—that we’re all human.

That, in my mind, would be taking the "multiculturalism" and "diversity" notions to an extreme….Groupthink doesn't become an issue until they reach a tipping point, and actions are taken.

And if bullets were to start flying right now you wouldn’t have time for a tipping point. Moreover, any action would simply be a reaction, and reaction from a fragmented group will yield minimal results.

If it were that simple, no revolts or unrest would have occurred since Maslow developed his theories. They would have been put into use, and no further unrest would have been possible.

It has been implemented but not fully in America. The reason why it will work in America, and work very well, is due to the majority of the population not being self-sufficient, not cognizant of the wiles of the government and ultimately, being consumers, sheeple and what some have termed as “useless-eaters.”

The key there may be the time lag between the initial restrictions, and the release of the further incentives down the road. When the timing is a bit off, folks will take care of their own needs, often to the detriment of the manipulator.

The government would do the right thing and compensate them for their work. It wouldn’t be similar to how vets and those injured in battle are discarded and left with no benefits. They’d be fully taken care of and they’d see to it that the public is aware of it. However, if they can’t get it from the government they are going to TAKE IT from who?

Again, throwing in the towel is your right as an American…I hope you can avoid an untimely one.

Thanks for the well wishes, but it’s part of the path I’ve chosen for myself.

Another level?...It's not all that structured or planned, so I'm not sure we can take it to another level, but it's always possible that it will arrive there nonetheless.

There is a lot of content on this site, or that has spun off from this site, that can be monetitized. There are so many ideas and concepts that can be made into I.P.’s and it’s easy because the core fan base is already built in. This is what I mean by taking it to the next level: Off of ATS and into the hands of the public.

These posts are growing... Sort of like a fungus . On that account, I'll probably just hit the high points.

Originally posted by EMPIRE

Those same average Americans you refer to ... I'd have to agree with that, but that doesn't mean I have to just lay there and take it.

This is what I’ve been saying only I’m not saying it will be an “us VS them” situation. What I’ve said several times now is it will be an “us VS us” situation.

We're probably just arguing over semantics here. In one sense, yes it will begin as an "us vs. us" scenario. Now where the semantics come in is that I view ANYONE shooting at me as "them". That particular party has given up all rights to be included in "us" by shooting at me. It matters nary a whit whether it's governmental, gang related, or just the unprepared Joe down the street. A bullet doesn't care.

... battle will not be waged between the government and the citizens, and if it is, the citizens will be crushed in record breaking time know one will even know it was a battle.

At some point, the government will HAVE to weigh in, just to retain credibility as a government. I think the main point of difference here that we have is in our view of the power of the government, and the weakness of people. From my perspective, I've seen just a bit too much of what men will do to each other without benefit of batteries, smart bombs, or UAV's, and just a bit too much of what they'll do to an opponents equipment in an effort to even the odds. Not the least of those things is to appropriate said equipment, and turn it against it's former owners. At a minimum, sabotage can be a big surprise. No, I'm of the opinion that a resuorceful human can, and has beaten all manner of high tech whiz bangs.

I don't believe it will be the cakewalk that TPTB think it will. The Northern forces in the last civil war here had much the same attitude, until First Manassas. They were quickly disabused of that notion.

You can give up on it and accept the collar if you like, it's your right as an American.

No it’s not giving up and accepting the collar but knowing when to walk away with a bit of dignity and hope intact. I mean seriously, what are you fighting for? What do people fight for? The same things over and over and the cycle never ends. There will be no utopia for your children, your grandchildren, their great grandchildren, etc. The only thing that will change is the faces in the game but the game will remain unchanged.

Yeah, that was probably a bit harsh. I apologize.

I'll be fighting to inflict the maximum damage I can on those who would damage me and mine. I can't leave. This is my home, and has been my family's home for several thousand years. I will live as free and unmolested in it as I can, or die here. THAT'S why people fight. Someone will ALWAYS be there to try to molest them, in the Next Big Deal. That's why the fighting never ends. There's always a wannabe overlord, who will always get overconfident and take it just a bit too far.

No, there never will be, nor has there ever been, any sort of utopia, for anyone. I'm just of the opinion that some dystopias are worse than others.

I had a Syrian friend that told me much the same thing about the middle east. The players change, but it's been the same war for well over 2000 years is almost PRECISELY what he said.

I reckon things are tough all over.

Nor Have I ever claimed to speak for ALL ex soldiers or vets. ...

Which is what I’ve been saying. A person can’t say all soldiers will fight in some crazy insurrection. Moreover, all citizens wouldn’t side with them even though what they are fighting for may be in their best interest. However, who is a soldier most likely to follow? Is he most likely to follow the government or the average joe?

I'd say most WILL fight, we seem to be having a difference of opinion as to which side the bulk of them will gravitate to. And you are quite correct, the citizens will side with whichever military side the think is in their best interests. They'll line up in about the same percentages, whether citizen or soldier. I say that because the soldiers come from the citizenry, and don't check deepest-held their beliefs at the base gates. It will most likely eventually lead to a near merger within the opposing factions, and citizen/soldier won't matter so much by then.

If it gets that rough, the average soldier will most likely follow his conscience, and whoever is in leadership of "his" side. It won't pan out on government/average Joe sides. Average Joe will himself be a follower of someone, not a leader of anyone.

... Yes, what you say is a tactic of guerrilla warfare, but that is in places where the guerillas already have an allegiance or support from the public. Now look at the average American citizen. Who does he turn to for his news, information, insight, etc? Who does he look to in time of need or protection? Does he look to the government or these so-called militiamen?

Those alleigances and support structures are coalescing even as we speak, and even as the country polarizes itself even more. They will take a jolt in one direction or another if either side makes a move before they are fully formed. Every day, the tendrils are lengthening and strengthening, almost, but not quite, imperceptibly.

To answer the last question: in rural areas, each other, which will be the bulk of the "militias" there. In the inner cities, the gangsters pretty much run the show, which will be the militias there. In the in between zones, the suburban and reasonably affluent areas, they still rely on government for "protection".

What are the chances of long term survival or being successful when it comes to doing something you’re unprepared for? Contrary to what you’re saying, if there was a battle between citizens and the gov, that would be the right time the government would step in, offer help, and in return get those citizens to squash the other citizens operating in rebellion.

That's what I'm saying. The government would HAVE to step in. Folks may be surprised which way the squashing goes when they do, as those most likely to accept government "help" are those most unprepared to fight the battles.

So why fight? What intrinsic or extrinsic value compells you to fight a loosing battle? This is different from mutual combat or fighting some guy who breaks into your home. In those cases I say go down swinging, even if they have weapons. But in this case, it is futile to wage war against them.

That's precisely it. This IS my home. And I WILL go down swinging. It's my opinion that if you've got nothing worth dying or, you just got nothing. It's only futile if I surrender it.

You believe then, that no group of Americans can find a commonality?

Yes they can. Via the idiot box, artificial commonality is marketed and promoted to them 24-7. Aside from that, the people are too fragmented and egotistical to put their differences aside and accept the most basic of commonalities—that we’re all human.

That's OK. Lots of folks are going to be surprised when they see how people will band together to oppose a perceived enemy. Differences get put aside pretty quickly when the wolf is at the door, and you suddenly realize how small those differences really are.

Folks with the big differences will be playing for the opposing team.

And if bullets were to start flying right now you wouldn’t have time for a tipping point. Moreover, any action would simply be a reaction, and reaction from a fragmented group will yield minimal results.

When bullets start flying, that IS the tipping point. I agree about the reaction and fragmented groups points. That's why the first month or so is likely to be sheer chaos.

What comes out the other side of that chaos will be a bit more cohesive.

It has been implemented but not fully in America. The reason why it will work in America, and work very well, is due to the majority of the population not being self-sufficient, not cognizant of the wiles of the government and ultimately, being consumers, sheeple and what some have termed as “useless-eaters.”

That depends on location. In cities, you're absolutely right, everyone DEPENDS on the government controlled infrastructure. It's going to be a really scary meltdown there.

In more rural areas, not so much.

The government would do the right thing and compensate them for their work. ... However, if they can’t get it from the government they are going to TAKE IT from who?

From wherever they can, government included. Most likely to resupply off of perceived enemies, to avoid alienating perceived friendlies. I guess maybe you'd have to have lived through it to believe it possible.

Thanks for the well wishes, but it’s part of the path I’ve chosen for myself.

I honestly DO wish you well. I just can't force myself to stay pissed off at you.

I'd like to know what corner of the earth you think will be safe, but it wouldn't be wise to post it in an open forum.

There is a lot of content on this site, or that has spun off from this site, that can be monetitized. There are so many ideas and concepts that can be made into I.P.’s and it’s easy because the core fan base is already built in. This is what I mean by taking it to the next level: Off of ATS and into the hands of the public.

I think that's against ATS rules without a bunch of agreements and legalese stuff. It's entirely possible that some of those involved could do something of that nature, but with an entirely new story.

I reckon the Space Opera could be a decent training ground for it.

I barely made it, with around 30 characters to spare.

Originally posted by nenothtu

We're probably just arguing over semantics here….A bullet doesn't care.

I completely agree with you, but I’m also stating there will not be an armed revolution where the citizens of the country attempt to overthrow TPTB.

At some point, the government will HAVE to weigh in, just to retain credibility as a government….At a minimum, sabotage can be a big surprise…. No, I'm of the opinion that a resuorceful human can, and has beaten all manner of high tech whiz bangs.

Again I agree that humans are resourceful, but I believe the only way the government will step in is after both sides (citizens vs citizens) have been exhausted from battle. Moreover, I believe the government would most likely pit both sides against each other but offer “places” in the new form of government or new America.

I don't believe it will be the cakewalk that TPTB think it will….The Northern forces in the last civil war here had much the same attitude, until First Manassas. They were quickly disabused of that notion….

Those were different times. You simply can’t compare the time period of the civil to our time period because they’re completely different. We now have large population, more hidden agendas, more citizens/cultures, more ideologies and beliefs, etc.

Yeah, that was probably a bit harsh. I apologize.

LOL! No need to apologize. I can dish it as well as take it, and I didn’t find it offensive. 

I'll be fighting to inflict the maximum damage I can on those who would damage me and mine….I can't leave….There's always a wannabe overlord, who will always get overconfident and take it just a bit too far. No, there never will be, nor has there ever been, any sort of utopia, for anyone. I'm just of the opinion that some dystopias are worse than others. I had a Syrian friend that told me much the same thing about the middle east. The players change, but it's been the same war for well over 2000 years is almost PRECISELY what he said.I reckon things are tough all over.

Yes you’ll always have some wannabe overlord. That was the point I was trying to make when you quoted me and was also what I was saying pages ago. If a revolution was to occur, and the current government replaced, how long would it take for a stable form of government to arise, and afterwards, how long would stability last? Unlike you I’m taking the steps to leave this country, but I have contingency plans just in case I can’t. However, I’m fully aware that violence, racism, crime, etc is not exclusive to America
and occur anywhere, so I’m not looking at things as if the world is sunshine and rainbows outside of the USA because it isn’t.

I'd say most WILL fight, we seem to be having a difference of opinion as to which side the bulk of them will gravitate to….It will most likely eventually lead to a near merger within the opposing factions, and citizen/soldier won't matter so much by then.

Whoever can offer the most bang for the buck and deliver will be the victor. So far, I see the government pulling it out.

If it gets that rough, the average soldier will most likely follow his conscience, and whoever is in leadership of "his" side. It won't pan out on government/average Joe sides. Average Joe will himself be a follower of someone, not a leader of anyone.

I wouldn’t bet any money on the average Joe and his conscience as his needs will override his conscience. His heart and mind may say one thing but his actions will say another. The average Joe might as well be dead because at the end of the day he’ll simply be a pawn. We’re all expendable here, you me, everyone in this thread. We’re all expendable and these people, whether they be so-called militia men or POTUS will use us to fulfill whatever visions and interpretations of life they may have.

Those alleigances and support structures are coalescing even as we speak, and even as the country polarizes itself even more….Every day, the tendrils are lengthening and strengthening, almost, but not quite, imperceptibly.

I don’t believe anyone in high government will lend a helping hand to any such cause. Moreover, how do you know these allegiances and support structures are the real deal? For all you know many of them could be disinfo and actually set up to fan you out and into the open.

To answer the last question: in rural areas, each other, which will be the bulk of the "militias" there. In the inner cities, the gangsters pretty much run the show, which will be the militias there. In the in between zones, the suburban and reasonably affluent areas, they still rely on government for "protection".

And do you think these guys will get along? Seriously, do you think the guys in the video will get along with gangsters from Compton?

That's what I'm saying. The government would HAVE to step in. Folks may be surprised which way the squashing goes when they do, as those most likely to accept government "help" are those most unprepared to fight the battles. "

You are correct when you say those likely to accept help are most unprepared, but if you use those people as human shields, crash dummies, etc what does it matter? Again, we’re expendable so as long as they can give them a gun and tell them in which direction to
shoot they’ll do it. Threaten to rape their wives, sons and daughters and they’ll bring home a couple of bodies for the cause. And as previously stated, the government will only fight when the two sides are broken, not because some rag tag group of soldiers decided to declare war and restore the constitution.

That's precisely it. This IS my home. And I WILL go down swinging. It's my opinion that if you've got nothing worth dying or, you just got nothing. It's only futile if I surrender it.

I’m sorry but this is not your home. A house divided cannot stand and this house is divided. In a stable home, you’re loved, welcomed, appreciated and able to rest. Can you honestly say this country treats you in such fashion? Sure, other countries are a hell of a lot worse, but at the rate this country is going now, what is to say it won’t be like those country years from now, or even tomorrow?

That's OK. Lots of folks are going to be surprised when they see how people will band together to oppose a perceived enemy. Differences get put aside pretty quickly when the wolf is at the door, and you suddenly realize how small those differences really are. Folks with the big differences will be playing for the opposing team.

We’ll see…

When bullets start flying, that IS the tipping point. I agree about the reaction and fragmented groups points. That's why the first month or so is likely to be sheer chaos. What comes out the other side of that chaos will be a bit more cohesive.

Yes, it will be madness, and if one side does not have anyway to subdue the madness the chaos will linger. The government has their ducks in order, the citizens don’t. In fact, what can the so-called militia even offer the citizenry? Aside from claims of freedom, (which they’ve heard before), change (which they’ve heard before) and a document they have no knowledge of (the constitution) what can they offer?

That depends on location. In cities, you're absolutely right, everyone DEPENDS on the government controlled infrastructure. It's going to be a really scary meltdown there.In more rural areas, not so much.

Curious, have you ever watched Escape from New York?

From wherever they can, government included. Most likely to resupply off of perceived enemies, to avoid alienating perceived friendlies. I guess maybe you'd have to have lived through it to believe it possible.

The first group they’ll look at are the people they are supposed to protect or ally with.

I honestly DO wish you well. I just can't force myself to stay pissed off at you.

I'd like to know what corner of the earth you think will be safe, but it wouldn't be wise to post it in an open forum.

LOL! Thanks, however I must reiterate that I don’t believe any place on the planet is a safe haven. I believe certain places on the planet are more suitable for certain types of living and that rural and metro areas have pros and cons.

I think that's against ATS rules without a bunch of agreements and legalese stuff.

All of that can be rectified by including them in the loop and doing the legal stuff. Trust me when I tell you this, a lot of people read the stuff from this site and pass it off as their own, and I’m not just talking about other sites with similar content. I’m talking Hollywood.

Take care!


[edit on 15-10-2009 by EMPIRE]