Why was Jesus a carpenter?

Hi NeoChristian Mystic

Luke 24:51 The phrase ‘and he was lifted up into Heaven’ καὶ ἀνεφέρετο εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν is ‘totally missing’ from the text of Codex Aleph (=Codex Sinaiticus) dating from around AD 340 and also from from Codex D the so-called Codex Bezae-Biglot Palimsest Cantabrigiensis from around AD 420 as well as a number of smaller mss (a, b, d, e)

But this very weird and troublesome phrase in the Greek IS found in p75, Codex A (Alexandrinus) Codex B (Vaticanus) Codex C (Ephraemi) and Codex W (Washingtoniensis-Freer) etc.

The question of course, is when was the phrase added or subtracted to an older text(s) which was penned by the author of the 3rd gospel (whoever he was)?

Most modern biblical textual scholars (e.g. Bart Ehrman etal.) tend towards thinking these phrases were ‘added’ for theological reasons to the Greek text:

We are still very much left wondering what the Aramaic oral underlay to this tradition might have been :

It may have originally existed in an oral Aramaic tradition prior to the writer of the 3rd gospel (whoever he was) in a pre-greek form something like, (‘then he was ingathered to the bosom of Abraham in [Martyr’s] Heaven, sitting on the right hand of the Most High’ etc.) i.e. more in line with the kind of language found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, referring to more of a spiritual ‘exaltation’ or ‘raising’ not a ‘physical ascension’ like the proverbial hot air balloon theory.

Luke 24:52 The next phrase (Gk. ‘proskunesantes auton’ they began to worship him’ is ALSO missing’ in Codex D the so-called Codex Bezae-Biglot Palimsest Cantabrigiensis from around AD 420 - now housed in the Cambridge University Library in England.

However: interestingly, the 2nd phrase, ‘they began to worship him’ IS found in P-75, Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, Codex Ephraemi, and the Washingtoniensis-Freer Codex, etc.

So...until earlier MSS are found with these verses letter for letter in the greek prior to AD 340, we are left, well...guessing I suppose !

reply to post by Sigismundus


Cheers Sigismund

Thanks for the thorough soursing. It helps alot! Honestly.

Another passage we are yet to find in the oldest mss is the popular story of Jesju and his encounter with the adulterous woman, where he challenges anyone in the mob who is without sin to cast the first stone. Many of our beloved stories have been added and deleted at different times to fit the politics of different ecclesiastical dinosaurs up through the ages.

Other anomalies is the enigmatic 666 which is not 666 at all in the oldest mss, but rather 616. And another point the scholars seem unsure of is whether it is John or the Dragon who stands at the sand by the sea. And quite interestingly the difference turns the whole book upside down. In my Bible it says in Rev 12:18: "And it [the Dragon] stood uppon sand by the sea", while many other Bibles say "And I [John] stood uppon the sand by the sea".

reply to post by infobrazil


Because His step father was one, look at it like the "family business".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well, it's not that easy, for Joseph I (the first husbond of Mary) was a holy man closely connected to the Temple services, just like Mary was a "Temple virgin" until she had her first menstruation period, that was when she was given away to old Joseph who was in his sixties or seventies, an old old man, compared to Mary who was somewhere between 12 and 14 at the time. Not long after the Egyptian exile, Joseph I died, and in comes Joseph II (notice how the two genealogies of Jesju given in the gospels are completely different), and unlike Joseph I he was about the same age as Mary, only a few years older. Whether or not he was a craftman or a man of the noble crafts, I know not, but it seems he was a scholar just like the first Joseph. In parallell literature Joseph I was chosen in the same way as Aaron was, that a group of men had to bring a dry stick, and Joseph's staff shot spears, just like in the story of Aaron (I guess poding or plant cloning, was known already then). For Mary wasn't just a common Temple maiden. She was of royal Solomonian blood and her grandparents had come from England, where they had become wealthy on mining tin and lead, and moved to Judea a generation before she was born. These are secrets the Church by no means wants us to know about. They wants us to believe that their 616 Jesus was born by a virgin by immaculent conception in the middle of a frosty winter, outside, and that the same 616 Jesus grew up to be a carpenter and was poor and never married or had any children. And the icing of the cake is when they kill him and wants us to believe he had to die, so that we could live. What has been done towards my father and lord is unforgivable, and everyone who stick to these lies are worthy of Hell seven times over. For Jesju was a noble man born of a worthy mother in the land of his ancestor, David, in the summer half of the calendar, in Pekudei Parasha, year six BC. He received education in language from his sixth year and at twelve he was Bar Mitzwaed in the Temple (quite unique) and used his Yad when his parents came and looked for him. Further on he was schooled in the Law and other important scripture, and married Mary Magdalen in his late twenties (which is quite late) and had many children with her. Sarah, his firstborn girl and Jacob, his Son of God (ie. firstborn). After a short period living like a prophet, dealing with politics and healing mostly, he was ceased probably because he broke several commandments and further on became a threat to the Roman supremacy, being a likely candidate for the Meschiach title, king like David. So he was tortured for among other things having killed the son of Annas the high priest, for blasphemy and many other things which is obvious when one reads the Gospel and contemorary scripture. After which he was condemned to be killed on the cross, but the centurion by the foot of the cross, after having seen him fade out, healed him from his punctured lung and handed over the body to Joseph of Arimathea, who in hgis turn rushed with a pack of men to his tomb where Essene healers worked on him until the grave was found empty and a shaved Jesju is believed to be the gardener by his own wife, since he had ascended to become high priest of Melchizedek's order, so his hair and beard had to go. And later he left his disciples to travel north.

That's the crash course. And just about noone calling himself Christian believes it, even though this is what is written right in front of their eyes. Somehow, the Pharicee Shaul Paulus and the Pope is more important that the Gospel and the Law itself to them. God knows why....

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Wow, what a load of crap. Christ is Lord, and He is risen. You need to have the Lord in your life if you want your sins forgiven my friend.

What blasphemy.

Have you read up on what is added to the terms of use here at ATS lately? Accusing me of blasphemy without confronting my knowledge with viable sources and scripture, is quite harsh. So please found your view, and remember that the way you judge me, God will judge you.

Ignorance may be bliss, but it breeds hostility. Feel free to keep your priests' doctrines and lies, called teology, discribing Jesju as a simple, poor carpenter and miracleworker. I won't blame you. But if you chose to look into the vast landscape of books and mss written about Jesju, often older than the books contained in the Bible, discribing Jesju like a person of flesh and blood, born of a _former_ temple virgin, ruling out the magic of virgin birth, and the blasphemous idea that Jesju is God, he is a son of God, just like any other lawabiding Hebrew, you could perhaps learn something and think for yourself instead of chewing digested food from the catacombs of Rome. You believe in obvious lies. You read something, but lack the ability to discern good from evil, right from wrong. Jesju was not a god, no more than we are all gods, he was a prophet and a rabbuni and healer, who was a high priest of a secret order till he died and his bloodline was carried on by his children to this day. The secret order I refer to is the Order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was Abrahams priest and the first in the Book to serve unleavened bread and wine as a sacrificial meal.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Yes I am familiar with that scriptural account, let me be more specific then, comparatively nothing spectacular happened during Jesus early years.

There were no mass healings or miracles profound sayings or the like.

Fair enough, I see what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Here is the Greek I don't know what you guys are talking about, but it is very black and white

strongsnumbers.com...Greek And English for Carpenter

Although this should settle the debate, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't on ATS . I appreciate the source.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Why do I need to read up on the new TOS on ATS?? I know the DEFINITION of the word "blasphemy", it appears you are ignorant to it (y)ourself. Google it.

Are you aware Dan Brown's books are located in the FICTION part of Barnes and Noble?? And I could care less what Rome has to say, I'm not a Catholic, I'm a Christian, and the first mention of "Christians" dates bact to the first century in Antioch. Long before there was a Vatican or Pope, or Catholic religion and dogma.

Yes, what you type is blasphemy.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by jimmyx


Actually it was the most enlightened, intellectual generation in history; they knew the real thing when they saw it and those simple fishermen and carpenters knew that what they were witnessing would change the world.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

Why do I need to read up on the new TOS on ATS?? I know the DEFINITION of the word "blasphemy", it appears you are ignorant to it ourself. Google it.

Are you aware Dan Brown's books are located in the FICTION part of Barnes and Noble?? And I could care less what Rome has to say, I'm not a Catholic, I'm a Christian, and the first mention of "Christians" dates bact to the first century in Antioch. Long before there was a Vatican or Pope, or Catholic religion and dogma.

Yes, what you type is blasphemy.

I haven't even read Dan Brown's books, so please stick to something not fiction, ok? The so called Da Vinci code is except for the idea that the Last Supper hides something, pure plagiate, from the book Michael Baigent et co wrote years before in Holy Blood Holy Grail. Let me explain where I have my information from. The Bible and related material available, appart from still living traditions like Talmoud and Kabbalah, also the codexes from Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea scrolls, but also tales and stories told me from Jews and other Hebrews etc. I also show my ancestors honors through studying Norse mythology and many other books and traditions. Still, Beresheet or Genesis is the most important book.

If you are among the people who thinks the Bible is the only book and the only true story fear the fires of Hell if you ever read or hear other texts being mentioned, please tell me the following:

Hebrews 5:5 So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." 6 And he says in another place, "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

? Now in which other place, in the "holy biblical canon" is it written that Mesja' Jesju is forever to be priest like Melchizedek?

And...

Jude 5:9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with Satan about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

? From where in among the ONLY canonised and legal-to-read and refered to books in the Bible is this a reference or quote even?

? And from what biblical book was it written:

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
The 'other place' refered to in Hebrews 5:6 is the BOOK of PSALMS 110:4

"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." ~ Psalm 110:4

(spelling edit)





[edit on 29-9-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
And for the 2nd ? apparently you mean Jude 1:9, there is only 1 chapter in the book of Jude, but where this is also referenced is in 2 Peter 2:11.

"Whereas angels which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord." ~ 2 Peter 2:11

And;

"And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" ~ Zechariah 1:21


Buy a reference Bible, you can have all those questions answered right in the center margins.....

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

The 'other place' refered to in Hebrews 5:6 is the BOOK of PSALMS 110:4

"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek." ~ Psalm 110:4

Yes sorry, it was an editing mistake, I forgot to read over it before I sent it. I meant the Hebrews quote to be an explanation to which secret order Jesju is priest in. The other quotes are references to extrabiblical books, I wonder if you call heretic or blasphemous.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

And for the 2nd ? apparently you mean Jude 1:9, there is only 1 chapter in the book of Jude, but where this is also referenced is in 2 Peter 2:11.

"Whereas angels which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord." ~ 2 Peter 2:11

Yes, ofcourse I mean 1:9, i mixed with the Hebrew quote, due to the already mentioned editing mistake. But 2nd Peter has no mention of Michael and Satan fighting over the body of Mosje (Moses). Syntax Error, invalid input my friend.

And;

"And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" ~ Zechariah 1:21

There is no 21st verse in the first chapter of Zecheriah, only 17. You should check who issued your bible I think. The quote you served is 3:2, but this quote has nothing to do with fighting over the dead body of Mosje (Moses), but rather Josva, the post Babylonian friend of Serubabel who rebuilt the temple with the Persian king Cyrus' blessing. You are not right. Try again....

Buy a reference Bible, you can have all those questions answered right in the center margins.....

My bible is fine, thanx

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


There most certianly is a 21st verse of the 1st chapter of Zechariah, look in the KJV, you know the only AUTHORIZED English translation of the Word of God.

If your Bible has these verses removed there is a serious problem. I'll assume you are using a modern version taken from the Alexandrian text??

"Try again", try again what?? Are you even aware of the major problems with the modern translations? Or where/whom they originated with?

*coughOrigencough*

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The first vision Zechariah has ends at 1:17 in my Bible His second vision starts with your 18th verse as chapter two in my edition. Then the third chapter starts with when Josva is put before God and Satan defended by Arch Michael, and Zacharjah figures Josva should get a new turnban too.

Still this referance you refer to and call 1:21 says nothing about Moses even being dead. The verse in Jude refers to a specific book and a specific quote, and a still living oral tradition with known stories dating back no later than first century AD. The specific quote of Jude (Jesju's brother Judas bar Josef BTW) I refered to was Jude v.9. -- About a certain occation where Arch Michael, Prince of Light, argues with Satan, the Prince of Darkness, over what to do with Mosje's dead coarpse. And it is not Zechariah, whether it is the third or first chapter in your bible. How the books are divided should not be a source of frustration.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


I'm not frustrated with it, just pointing out the Word has a 21st verse. And why are you using such odd names? Are you a hebrew? What gives?

And there are many books that were not included in the Bible, they were written by many of the same Biblical authors, but those writing were not considered inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure you can understand that Paul, Mathiew, Mark, Luke, et cetra wrote more things down during their lifetimes that were not inspired by the Holy Spirit of God.

God however does promise us that He will preserve His Word forever, and for an omnipotent God that would be simple, just as he inspired man to write certian books that would later be in scripture, so He aslo insipired the Christians at Antioch Syria as to which books to include into His everlasting written word and whih to not include.

The Bible alludes to the Book of Enoch et cetra, these are great books of historical value, but for one reason or another God chose to not have them included in his word. I'm sure we can ask Him in heaven why or why not, but I'll assume they are not necessary for salvation, or are redundant to some included books.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So King James (who had gay tendencies BTW, not that it matters to me) is to be credited with having created God's Word(!)? KJV, which BTW is a compilation of a variety of different religious texts already collected more than 1000 years before him translating from translations of original texts once written in Hebrew and Aramaic, belonging to different Hebrew traditions and scisms.

You don't suppose God's Word is language as a phenomenon you think? -- What makes Homo sapiens sapiens into what we are? God's Word is not a book written by long dead humans, or collection of such for that matter. Not even all the books in the world could contain the Word of God, which was the primordeal God and the living Temple of God, our very bodies with their minds and metasperes, our ability to create and develop technology and discover science the prophets of your book called Zion.

Six Days... Six thousand years ago Sumer, the world's first civilisation, sporting a written language, royalty and city states emerged around the rivers of Mesopotamia (today's Iraq) centered around city centers such as Ur which means Light. Ur was the birthtown of Abraham whose name means Father of Many, so it still existed at the time Abraham found God and was promised the Land of Canaan. Canaan, who was the grandson of Noah, whom Noah cursed for having seen him dead drunk and naked, and instead of covering him and keep quiet about it, he ran off and told all the others about the shocking news. Uppon the rock which is today inside the Mosq of the Temple Mount, Abraham nearly sacrificed his favorite son to show obediance to God. And so on.

Now. Where does King James come into this story? I don't see but a faint spark in a sky full of stars. He shall have credit for having brought the Gospel and the Tannakh to the English speaking people in a world where just about all sermons on the continent were conducted in Latin, often poor Latin.

Light is often used as an alegory for truth. And here is one for you. Aeons ago, before the sky around the Earth had cleared, the Spirit of God, made it so that the people who lived there started worshipping the emerging disk of light in the clouds. And they invented clocks and calendars and found the time for when the emerging light would come, and they worshipped it and said Come Oh Light, and minutes later, the crowd would go: "YeeHah! Wow! Huh?" and the rock started rolling for real.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic
He most certianly did not, that was a slanderous charge brought against him by the Vatican. And we can both figure out why that was...

Let me re-find the article in question I read that made me get rid of my two modern versions of scripture and begin to study the Word only in the KJV.

Stay tuned my friend, hopefully it will not take me long. if I remember correctly it is over 100 pages of reading, so it will take a little bit of time for you to go over, but I will look nonetheless.

BRB

And on a side note, lets say the charge was correct about King James having gay tndencies, if it were in fact true, we have no idea if it was early in life before he committed Himself to God. Remember Paul was a Pharasee who lied to have Christians killed before the Lord called him on the road to Damascas.

I for sure don't want men looking at/judging me on my past sins. None of us do correct?



[edit on 29-9-2009 by NOTurTypical]