"Gnothi Seauton"/Know Thyself/Self-Awareness

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
I must admit I have my own way of thinking and relating to it. Perhaps it makes no sense the the majority or minority or whatever. That is fine. I do not fully understand your choice of expression either. I am ok with that and afford myself other models.

Should I take this moment to say that is because you only see in me that which reflects what you know of yourself and that it's the same for all of us?

Or perhaps more simply...

Great work, friend. Keep it up.

I like them equally and the implications are the same

Indeed, why talk infinity when we are living it in each and every moment.

Peaceful journeys.

Originally posted by Troy_
reply to post by seagrass

 

Yes, that is why I said the "matrix" - which is the structured society that we live in - does not support spiritual growth. That does not mean we do not have everything we need, however.

My point is that there are those on this earth, those in power, who wish to deny us of our divine birthright as they seek to serve themselves only.

But then again, I believe the purpose of this earth, and this matrix, is for us to "rise" above the distractions in order to attain what is rightfully ours as we grow most through suffering. Unfortunately, not many rise above.

I wholeheartedly agree, and it is the distractions of what makes us happy that we should notice. I find it hard these days to find them amidst the clutter. But I am still learning.

I've been noticing how much the slave mentality has become commonplace and accepted. Yet we are told we are doing it for our own benefit, that it is a noble quest.
A good hardworking American. (insert other nationality here)

We do have some great little "pieces of cheese" to follow though.
How do you undo that many years of conditioning in a society that is hanging on to it by it's fingernails?

[edit on 14-9-2009 by seagrass]

I don't believe we are supposed to emulate the ultimate reality experience while we are here in this "matrix" or "parameters of experience".
I believe we are to realize we are part of that ultimate reality though. To try to connect to it, to try to have the faith that what we are doing has purpose. To recognize the "self" as divine and then to act on that knowing as honestly as possible. This is Earth not the ultimate reality and we still have to play by the rules of the game while we are here. Rules like gender, rules like acceptance of belief systems, rules like separation and suffering.

We try to know thyself in that process. While who knows how many elements of our consciousness is out there learning it in other parameters and levels.

When I get bitter about the suffering, I feel like I am a little consciousness slave for the creator, a pawn of experience. Like I am here to be a mirror and it feels like punishment.
And then there are those exceptional days....

[edit on 14-9-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by seagrass
I don't believe we are supposed to emulate the ultimate reality experience while we are here in this "matrix" or "parameters of experience".

I believe we are, mostly to break free from it, live it on our own terms and assist others in breaking free.

Originally posted by seagrass
We try to know thyself in that process. While who knows how many elements of our consciousness is out there learning it in other parameters and levels.

If my own experience is any indication, it is alot. I could sense millions. Who knows what fraction that really is.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by seagrass
I don't believe we are supposed to emulate the ultimate reality experience while we are here in this "matrix" or "parameters of experience".

I believe we are, mostly to break free from it, live it on our own terms and assist others in breaking free.

I believe we have to do it as a group. At specific points the gates open.
If only a few pioneers are getting there, it will take "time" to have the rest catch up. It takes lifetimes.

One thing that seems to me undeniable is that computation (counting, reckoning) seems inseperable from every thing the very moment any sort of polarity is manifest. It matters not the nature of the realm (material, astral, etc.) in which that polarity exists. Polarity introduces relationships in pairs of opposites that can be reckoned. Some may be more obvious how to from our perspective (temperature) than others (love-hate) but I will myself reckon they're amenable to the same investigation and classification regardless of nature.

As such, technology is possible in all forms of being and substance.

This relates to "gnothi seauton" in that our technology will progressively resemble reality more and more over time and perhaps eventually become reality itself. It won't be a Matrix in the movie sense. That notion is far too pallid. It follows straight from our true nature.

A strange realization I had today on the subject and the progression I am witnessing (somehow).

could you give an example of the technological possibilities in a love/hate reckoning?

reply to post by fraterormus

The problem with Self-Awareness or Knowledge of Self is that it is a Life-long endeavour. It is not something that you can sit down for an hour or two in a single evening to gain. It requires a conscious, dedicated effort not only on a daily basis, but in every single second one is alive.

I understand what you're saying here - but I see it differently

I believe you can see everything you need to see - recognize that thing you need to know - at any point. In an instant

I suppose it could be some sort of existential Pilates if you want it to be - and I'm not even saying it shouldn't be

but I think we already know what we need to know - I've had those moments myself - crystal clear (and often painful) - but it's not so much learning as seeing - recognizing what's already known - the trick (at least as far as I'm concerned) is to remember - get back to that moment - keep the ball in the air

I don't want to use the word enlightenment because I have absolutely no clue what all that would entail - so - not going to throw the word around

but I can see someone making the mistake of thinking that's what I'm talking about

I'm not - but if we're talking about awareness - self awareness - I really do think most of our energy and time is spent hiding our personal truths from our own selves

from the above link to the quotes:

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool. -- Richard Feynman

it's one of the quotes I liked the most

I do recognize that that's a personal choice - and maybe that has to be factored in - what works for one person may not work for another

most of my favorite quotes revolve around self deception - so - guess that does say a lot about me

:-)

reply to post by TravelerintheDark

Denial isn't awareness. It is in opposition.

I think that's true - except - in order to deny something you have to acknowledge it first

you can see the whole self deception thing is my personal obsession :-)

what wears us out the most and gets us a little closer to crazy maybe is the time and energy we spend pretending we don't see what we do so obviously see

But then I don't subscribe to the concept of 'mistakes' or 'failure'.

I don't either -

except - I do feel the pain of failure - so, I'm not being completely honest when I say that :-)

I recognize the value of failure

and to go along with that - and what I was just saying above, I think to be fair to all of our selves - denial might be necessary

it may be the only thing that makes it possible for us to function in this world - maybe useful in ways that being self aware isn't

:-)

almost sorry I said that

Originally posted by seagrass
could you give an example of the technological possibilities in a love/hate reckoning?

No, I don't think I can other than to say technology exceeds the usual notion of machinery but becomes a partner and tool in self-realization and creation itself. Science and religion are fused but not into something we'd recognize as either. It isn't a stage where scientists are religious or the religious are scientific which implies that a duality continues to exist, thus it is still incomplete. The duality is actually gone. I've mulled over it myself intellectually in the past but never before "got it". Later I've read passages about what seems to be "it" but the descriptions cannot fully convey "it" and don't reflect the true nature. Perhaps the best example to express it with is the ascended Ancients in SG-1 but again, that isn't "weird" enough either.

But, the brain itself is a sophisticated piece of tech that employs such understanding in its formation and is able to reckon within dimensions of duality that our own current tech cannot. I guess finally I contradict my initial "no". Part of our own construction is such a technological possibility thus so is the material universe.

Ok, so, I'm mental and stuck in fantasy land. So be it. Ain't important right now anyway. If we want to see it we have to survive to make it there.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by TravelerintheDark

 

Denial isn't awareness. It is in opposition.

I think that's true - except - in order to deny something you have to acknowledge it first

you can see the whole self deception thing is my personal obsession :-)

what wears us out the most and gets us a little closer to crazy maybe is the time and energy we spend pretending we don't see what we do so obviously see

In my own experience this was very true. And from the outside it looked quite crazy. From the inside it wasn't much better. To me the awareness wasn't simply acknowledging the existence of elements of myself ('they' wouldn't let me forget anyway, if that makes sense) but in finding an appropriate place for them. A place that served my goal in life, which is rather simple and unambitious by most standards, but it works for me

But then I don't subscribe to the concept of 'mistakes' or 'failure'.

I don't either -

except - I do feel the pain of failure - so, I'm not being completely honest when I say that :-)

I recognize the value of failure

It sounds like you're being quite honest. I think recognizing a positive value in 'failure' (as I take your meaning) is precisely what it means to unsubscribe, so to speak, from the concept of failure. Certainly we may not achieve what we set out to do, but the emotional impact of that is our choice.

I also think that the emotional impact has less to do with the lack of accomplishing a goal and much, much more to do with the power of expectation. Which can be difficult to grapple with depending on circumstances.

So I also see being aware as leaving the outcome open and as free from our expectations as possible. Because while Einstein was quite certain that 'god' doesn't play dice, I'm quite convinced 'god' may well enjoy a game of roulette

and to go along with that - and what I was just saying above, I think to be fair to all of our selves - denial might be necessary

it may be the only thing that makes it possible for us to function in this world - maybe useful in ways that being self aware isn't

It makes sense. We deny harmful impulses because it makes society and our lives more livable. But does it ultimately work? I do have doubts but it depends on circumstances.

Our best intentions (if denial can be inferred as a positive in a truthful sense) seem foiled more often than not especially when it comes to behavior for which the consequences are long term. Human beings can and do think long term, but the longer we have to the point of outcome the less significant the consequences appear.

It's why so many 'quitters' quit quitting

I personally see the only permanent solution for most issues we as humans have in self-awareness (I mean, it is how the problem generally starts after all, so it must to me in some way be part of the solution). Not simply in acceptance of so-called flaws but in understanding why they exist. So it becomes like weeding a garden. Find the roots, expose it to the light and let it die, because most negative patterns of behavior thrive in secrecy and darkness.

The mind loves patterns. Not simply because patterns generate a feeling of simplification, but because it likes to wend it's way along the course looking for a solution, finish, completion of some sort. Get to the core of the issue and the problem is solved after a fashion, the puzzle is complete, and the mind is more free to relinquish it.

almost sorry I said that

I'm not, so we can let it balance itself out

[edit on 17/9/09 by TravelerintheDark]

[edit on 17/9/09 by TravelerintheDark]

reply to post by TravelerintheDark


all of this deserves a much better reply - but - just leaving (actually going to go out into the real world...)

I'm not, so we can let it balance itself out

so thought I'd at least say for now:

an oldie but a goodie - the all time cop out answer: maybe everything is about balance :-)

maybe there's a delicate balance between self deception and complete honesty (awareness) that needs to be achieved - we can't have one without the other

too much either way and we live miserable lives of obsession, depression and - whatever else makes us crazy and miserable

or not

:-)

be back later...

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


In lieu of your more detailed response, I thought this and wanted to put it out...

I think the idea of a balanced life only seems like a cop-out if we assume it's easy

And I agree that balance is healthy, that any extreme can be potentially damaging or unproductive, but I'm not sure of the benefits of self-deception or that it's balancing. I mean it is another conundrum. You can't lie about something you don't know the truth of, can you? So it seems like a step backwards.

Have a nice time out!

There may be a purpose in denial..
I suppose it depends on why you are denying it.

To look closer at the reasons we avoid something. If it made us happy, if it was a true self, wouldn't we gladly do what we want to do?

Denial may be a tool.
Perhaps the acceptance of what we are not is required by taking the tool and using it for a more positive end.

Something that is difficult when others tell us what we should do. We listen and we think "they" may be right. But our denial tells us we don't want to do it, don't want to go there.

Then again, what we fear comes to us anyway in some instances. A test.
When we don't do what we feel is right, we lose our self esteem and our self trust.
We know ourselves less.

procrastination, much like denial is like that for me. If I really don't want to do something I like to wonder why.
I'll be first in line for something I want to do. If we followed our nose as such imagine how easy balancing could be.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by seagrass]

What is being denied is also a factor.
Denying our needs, denying what is right for us, then my spiel is different.
I'm suspicious of denial as it was Freud's favorite.
A defense mechanism which fuels motivations. His daughter also loved denial and used it to describe an inability to cope with reality. But should we cope with our reality or deny it in order to be true to self? The honesty should determine if you are simply avoiding responsibility to yourself or avoiding some responsibility that is determined by others.
If it is a defense mechanism shouldn't we look at what we are defending?

reply to post by seagrass


sorry away so long... :-)

There may be a purpose in denial.. I suppose it depends on why you are denying it. To look closer at the reasons we avoid something.

well - this is one of those subjects - I'm not sure I'm one to voice and opinion, because I'm not sure I have a strong opinion about it one way or another

I'm very unclear about the whole concept of self awareness - no matter how much I read about it

I only understand it as far as what I understand for and about myself - and whenever I wander into that area I find that I have a very difficult time articulating what it is I think/understand/believe

so, as far as denial goes - maybe it's the wrong word

I think to be self aware - all the time - would be impossible

to really know yourself - and be constantly awake, aware of yourself - might be excruciating

or - maybe that's just me :-)

the difference between being asleep and awake - that's the balance I'm thinking about - one doesn't come without the other - they're necessary to each other

awake/dreaming

the idea of self delusion feels wrong because we're all hung up on honesty - morally

but what would it really mean to be self aware - completely - all the time?

what would we gain from that? and is it dishonest to take a break from that?

not trying to be contrary or difficult - it's the concept - it really does elude me

If it made us happy, if it was a true self, wouldn't we gladly do what we want to do?

this is another concept I find difficult to work out in my head - happiness

what does it mean to be happy? and, should it actually be a goal?

I'm just asking...

:-)

Originally posted by seagrass
We don't understand our unconscious nature because we are taught to fear it, ignore it, and make excuses for it. Sometimes even blaming it on demons.
The ancient mystery schools hid that important information right in plain sight. Know Thyself.
Today it is called Self-Awareness.
When we cannot express our truth, our natural self, we subdue our nature and force our truth to the underground.
There are many many things designed to keep us from our own self knowing. Our own power, and understanding are shadowed under laws, rules, religion, science, and authority.

This thread seemed personally timely, plus I recognized you and Spira, so I jumped in.

Maybe Western psychology/medicine is providing the underlying physical framework for what was evident in the mystery schools. It's like humanity keeps getting another step closer to the center of our target of self-awareness. Freud was just one step. A path does not mean a straight line. A tasty dish can have many ingredients put in at different times in various amounts.

I say timely, because one day at work last week, I suddenly thought about the path of my own Life. It seems that there was always an underlying "self" that needed to be born in this Life after my physical birth. My path, my self, is unique to me. Yes, the self that wants to be known is up against much in this Life, as you stated.

Years ago, I had a dream, when going through some pretty stressful times, which was the culmination of a very stressful Life (yet a Life filled with family love and physical needs met). In that dream I crossed over a deep ravine via a rickety, swinging bridge, from a jungle on one side, to the other side which I knew was my destination, with a feeling of relief and having "made it". And I knew I would never return to the other side. It was a certainty. I finally was born into the self-Life I was meant to have after my physical birth.

OK, now here is the interesting part. The same day of that thought at work, when I came through the door, my husband greeted me in the usual way, then blurted out that he had had a revelation about himself that day. He ended up in tears, because he finally understood a grand idea about himself that made all the pain in his Life understandable. (Much of that pain was caused by well intentioned family growing up.) He knew that that self realization would help him get through the rest of his Life in a better way.

The only comparison I can think of is having a quiver of arrows and each time trying to hit the center of the target. Some arrows get close, some fall far from the mark. But practice made better choices, until I could finally hit the target with ease more often. Am I still practicing, walking my Path? Until the day I leave this Life, I will always have to, but I do so much more easily.

Oh, and one more thing. Never miss an opportunity when Life presents an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Or when Life throws you flowers, catch them and enjoy them.

reply to post by desert


hey desert :-)

there was a lot in there I'd like to respond to - but better left to another time I think

Oh, and one more thing. Never miss an opportunity when Life presents an opportunity to learn something about yourself.

Or when Life throws you flowers, catch them and enjoy them.

but I liked that - and agree

what I was saying about happiness - I don't know that you can plan it or count on it - but I do think we can allow for it - and appreciate it when it happens

maybe the same for being self aware


[edit on 9/20/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by seagrass

well - this is one of those subjects - I'm not sure I'm one to voice and opinion, because I'm not sure I have a strong opinion about it one way or another

you are here aren't you? Something keeps you reading. I think you do have strong opinions on it...or want to sort it out.

I'm very unclear about the whole concept of self awareness - no matter how much I read about it

I only understand it as far as what I understand for and about myself - and whenever I wander into that area I find that I have a very difficult time articulating what it is I think/understand/believe

That is the only way we can understand it, it's purpose and mechanics, is to understand it for and about ourselves. It is difficult to articulate because in western society we are taught to not focus on ourselves. That thinking of ourselves is selfish. So here is the tough part....
to be constantly aware of ourselves, would mean we were less focused on others. And yet... by knowing the self, doing what is true to self, we would be doing a service to others. If we are self responsible, we take that responsibility to do the "right" thing for us which in turn is the right thing for them.
Example.
I stayed married to a man who didn't love me. Not like I wanted and needed. I did nothing about it for myself, I did everything for the self that was willing to stay.
Why?
As I become more aware of my self, over the years I have seen patterns evolve....
I recognized that I would do the "right" thing regardless of whether or not it would make me happy or that it was what I wanted. He did the same thing too. Stayed because of morals. Someone else's morals.
Through honesty of self in the face of fear and guilt I had to take steps to make myself happy. To honor my needs. It took a lot of courage to stand up to people who held those "morals" over me. I realized I was losing one thing for another, that lies were appearing and dropping away from my life at a rapid rate once I took that new path.
In attempting to make my life more like I need, I lost the things that I thought were certain. Things I wasn't ready to lose. I had to look at that too. Why is this leaving, there must be a reason this needs to leave my life?
How we handle the people in that scenario is what is important. We teach by example. We know who we are when we say, do, and think what is right for us, recognize what we are not. And that the people we think are causing us pain are really offering us that gift.

so, as far as denial goes - maybe it's the wrong word

Not a wrong word, just a loaded word. But still just a word.

I think to be self aware - all the time - would be impossible

Realizing it is existing only in the NOW, it is all we can do. A polarity again. We are everything that is possible and nothing at the same time. All that is and nothing. All we have is right now. Finding a knowing of self can only happen now.
we can use our history or our desire for the future as a measuring stick.

to really know yourself - and be constantly awake, aware of yourself - might be excruciating

That is the crux. It should be exhilarating. Why isn't it?

the difference between being asleep and awake - that's the balance I'm thinking about - one doesn't come without the other - they're necessary to each other

awake/dreaming

another polarity, so is there really a difference?

the idea of self delusion feels wrong because we're all hung up on honesty - morally

what better way to realize it? Can belief systems exist without right or wrong?

but what would it really mean to be self aware - completely - all the time?

Has anyone done it? And added onto that..honestly?

what would we gain from that? and is it dishonest to take a break from that?

perhaps peace?

not trying to be contrary or difficult - it's the concept - it really does elude me

it is difficult. Does it ever end? Does knowing the self ever cease? I believe as a component of God/Creator/Source we are given endless possibilities to discover it.

If it made us happy, if it was a true self, wouldn't we gladly do what we want to do?

this is another concept I find difficult to work out in my head - happiness

what does it mean to be happy? and, should it actually be a goal?

I'm just asking...

:-)

I intend to try to find out.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by seagrass]

Originally posted by desert
Originally posted by seagrass

This thread seemed personally timely, plus I recognized you and Spira, so I jumped in.

Glad to see you here. I still think you should consider writing.

Maybe Western psychology/medicine is providing the underlying physical framework for what was evident in the mystery schools. It's like humanity keeps getting another step closer to the center of our target of self-awareness. Freud was just one step. A path does not mean a straight line. A tasty dish can have many ingredients put in at different times in various amounts.

Never a straight line, which is frustrating. It is endless pendulum swinging.. but I do believe we make progress on a jagged zig zag upward spiral. Like the planets circle in a forward then retrograde motion, the galaxies spiral out ever expanding.
Freud was one step in our journey, but there is always more to discover.
Sometimes I think those tasty dishes are placed in a timely manner just like this thread for you. Like chapters in a good book. It wouldn't make sense if you switched the chapters around.

I say timely, because one day at work last week, I suddenly thought about the path of my own Life. It seems that there was always an underlying "self" that needed to be born in this Life after my physical birth. My path, my self, is unique to me. Yes, the self that wants to be known is up against much in this Life, as you stated.

I sense the same thing. And I to have been up against much as well, I think we all have, as there are so many choices and diversity of opportunity, and now I am really tired.

Years ago, I had a dream, when going through some pretty stressful times, which was the culmination of a very stressful Life (yet a Life filled with family love and physical needs met). In that dream I crossed over a deep ravine via a rickety, swinging bridge, from a jungle on one side, to the other side which I knew was my destination, with a feeling of relief and having "made it". And I knew I would never return to the other side. It was a certainty. I finally was born into the self-Life I was meant to have after my physical birth.

I feel I am on that rickety bridge right now. I understand your dream.

OK, now here is the interesting part. The same day of that thought at work, when I came through the door, my husband greeted me in the usual way, then blurted out that he had had a revelation about himself that day. He ended up in tears, because he finally understood a grand idea about himself that made all the pain in his Life understandable. (Much of that pain was caused by well intentioned family growing up.) He knew that that self realization would help him get through the rest of his Life in a better way.

Sounds like Self-Awareness to me. I am happy for him. But I am sure he is not done. There is always more to know.

The only comparison I can think of is having a quiver of arrows and each time trying to hit the center of the target. Some arrows get close, some fall far from the mark. But practice made better choices, until I could finally hit the target with ease more often. Am I still practicing, walking my Path? Until the day I leave this Life, I will always have to, but I do so much more easily.

Excellent metaphor. Same pendulum swinging to find the mark. We narrow it down eventually?

Oh, and one more thing. Never miss an opportunity when Life presents an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Or when Life throws you flowers, catch them and enjoy them.

I'm trying.

[edit on 21-9-2009 by seagrass]

[edit on 21-9-2009 by seagrass]