"Gnothi Seauton"/Know Thyself/Self-Awareness

reply to post by seagrass


Yes, that's what I was trying to express. I suppose it didn't come across that way entirely, but that was my attempt. We criticize and demean others rather than face up to our own shortcomings. We express disgust for others rather than expose our own shame. And we fear and hate others for seeing in them what we most fear and despise in ourselves.

The 'dark night of the soul' is swimming in a pool of darkness. What lurks in the depths is only what we've created. What reflects on the surface is what we ourselves are. Plunging those murky depths is coming to grips with the essence of our being.

Originally posted by fraterormus
Raising a child is one of the best ways to achieve Self-Knowledge, as raising a child is a Selfless act that circumvents the Ego's control, and you come to learn far more about yourself and what made you who you are, for better or for worse. It allows you to remove yourself from the defensiveness that comes in response to seeking Self-Knowledge as you are able to project your analysis unto your child, and later able to associate those same behavioral patterns within you.

That may be the case for those sincerely seeking self-knowledge but my experience suggests it is usually the opposite. The child becomes an object of projection, displacement and is both a vessel not only for the parents' genomes but a means to send their memes into perpetuity.

Depending on the parents it may in fact be a good thing for the child. Even then, no greater self-knowledge is gained-- they just have relatively healthy habits.

Let me state that in my particular case there is much that should be done before I have children. It seems to trace back to my grandfather being a German POW in WWII and there's no way in hell I'm going to let The Third Reich wend its way through my family's bloodlines forever. It's the end of the line for that.

Originally posted by fraterormus
Every Psychologist has to undergo Psychotherapy for themselves. If you find a good Psychologist, it can be a very casual weekly or bi-weekly thing that can be beneficial for both of you (do you realize how refreshing it is for Psychologists who have a client who isn't mentally ill or messed up?).

Sometimes one finds the shrink is far, far crazier than the patients they treat. If they weren't sincerely seeking when analyzed, it's quite likely they'll employ their knowledge as a tool towards passing this vetting stage.


Those ideas needed to be brought back to earth.


[edit on 9/10/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Originally posted by seagrass
The more we open and risk, the more we find the gifts and secrets. But also the more the lies and the people entangled in those lies fall away from our lives. It is scary, the process of self awareness. You find yourself on a river without a paddle.
I am crafting my paddle as we speak, but initially it feels like a crazy river rafting ride until you get the hang of it. It is nice to know there are others on that river doing the same thing.

That's very true.
I've kind of had to cut a lot of people out of my life over the years.
Not in a harsh way, but you just realise for whatever reason, that they are not right for you or you're not compatible.

The path to awareness and enlightenment and self awareness is a very strange and twisty one.

And I've chatted to a member here many times about these things.. and about how i am constantly aware... i can't seem to just switch of.
Like I'm always viewing myself or always aware that I'm aware.... this is where it's difficult to explain

I'm always thinking... not necessarily over-thinking, just thinking,analysing, aware and contemplating... and sometimes i kind of envy those who can just muddle/float through life without having to think.

I am glad I'm not like that really...but a break would be nice


It's weird... i know myself really well.
I know my own mind and know how to deal with anything and be able to accomplish anything... but doing it is something else.

I'm a fantastic muse... give excellent advice and can always sort other people out and usually know the best way of dealing with someone's problem.
My friends usually come to me with their problems and seek my advice on things quite often... but as a muse.... can very seldom heed my own advice and that's rather annoying...but something I'm working on and over the last year or so, i'm getting much better.
Much more will power and more control over things.

And like yourself... I'm carving my own paddle too... I'm getting there.
I have all the tools i need, It's just figuring out what needs to be done.






[edit on 10/9/09 by blupblup]

ALOHA, Nice picture of honu (hawaiian for sea turtle). It seems you have begun a profound thread of inquiry. Yes, 'Know Thyself', has been the prime directive of nearly every spiritual path, mystic and esoteric, ancient and modern. One could say the same of religion and science in the fundamental forms. It is the heart of every human evdeavor, even if we are unconscious of it, because to master something, we must master ourselves. It seems that is what we must do on this planet - is find ourself, 'know thyself', because each human being in some way searches, as they say, "the quest", to fill an emptiness/dissatisfaction/uncompletion feeling. We do this with means given to us by a backward society, like tv, movies drugs - and some of the more productive hobbies and passions for humanity. Yet the fact remains that at our cor we feel separate from ourselves, the Source, and that is why very few can be content with themselves in the quiet of stillness. We are trained/conditioned this way be society - some say it is part of the great illusion to strengthen our souls. Either way, the universe is organized by grand design, well call Source, and all matter and energy, including Human Lives, are connected with this...and thus it can be said we do not know who we are - and therefore, the edict "Know Thyself". It seems that if we recognized our inherent connection to the divine source of creation, existing within us, looking through our eyes, reading these words, that we would cease to "quest-ion". Many systems, both academic and spiritual, claim of ways, which always work for some and others are remaining within the "quest-ioning" frame of reference. Perhaps it would help if we ask not who we are - but rather what we do; which is identify. We identify with every object, whether it be physical matter of external nature, or mental/emotional sensations of internal natue. We exis!t -- and we identify with the content of current existence as experienced by our able modes of perception (5, maybe 6, senses). We should stop chasing our tails by asking who, like pointing to the moon and staring at our finger, and start to stop!!! Meaning cease calling ourselves by these labels, using words incorporated into the process of identity - that is, 'we are spirit/soul/body/mind/emotion/child/parent/indigo/worker/guru/student ad infinitum. Part of the conundrum is the labels, wanting to know and label "it". This is the product of an analytic mental process which by no means accounts for our true nature - which is in fact close to nature - good place to start - recconect energy with Earth! Anyways, people shouldnt be too concern immediatley with meditation, yoga postures etc. and rather be close and quiet with themselves in very aspect of the day. Relase every agenda, pause, release every thought and desire. Close your eyes, hold your breath, then breathe. Open your eyes and see for the first time. LOVE

reply to post by EnlightenUp

It can be through that conflict and recognizing patterns that a child can eventually see that it is not his fault that he is what he is. Realizing it was part of some cosmic inheritance. Once you realize you are caught in a web, only then you can start cutting the strings toward freedom. Or at least see that you were playing a part in an illusory drama.
Then you try not to raise your child the same way you were, of course then making new mistakes. and the circling spiral continues.....

Originally posted by seagrass
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

It can be through that conflict and recognizing patterns that a child can eventually see that it is not his fault that he is what he is. Realizing it was part of some cosmic inheritance. Once you realize you are caught in a web, only then you can start cutting the strings toward freedom. Or at least see that you were playing a part in an illusory drama.

I'm seeing my part. I see some concrete consequences. I'm not desiring to elaborate too much on specifics. If you were to bear witness, you would understand, I do think.

Then you try not to raise your child the same way you were, of course then making new mistakes. and the circling spiral continues.....

I'm confused. It's not about trying to raise someone differently. It's about getting on the path to self awareness, to "know thyself" and to not repeat the damaging programming and pass it on. In that, I am taking command of who I am and not placing the responsibility for that on another's shoulders.

So putting on generational stop on, for example, alcohol dependency by expunging the associated programming that encourages it, I'm adding in new mistakes in place of old ones?

At worst, at least it is an upward spiral and not a circle or descending spiral. We make the conscious effort in order to accelerate the evolution.

Originally posted by blupblup

I've kind of had to cut a lot of people out of my life over the years.
Not in a harsh way, but you just realise for whatever reason, that they are not right for you or you're not compatible.

Me too. Seems most times for me they are taken in one way or another. But I have walked away from people I truly did like, but the energy they were giving off was not good for me and a distraction to who I wanted to be.
I have been walked away from as well, and it was painful when I looked at it as walking away and not that what I had to give was done. That I "reflected" and the job was done. It is easier now to let people go without guilt.

The path to awareness and enlightenment and self awareness is a very strange and twisty one.

Very strange and twisty, two steps forward one back... and you think you are better when life suddenly gives you another test.

And I've chatted to a member here many times about these things.. and about how i am constantly aware... i can't seem to just switch of.
Like I'm always viewing myself or always aware that I'm aware.... this is where it's difficult to explain

It is extremely annoying. like a woodpecker on your head. I know people who "float" through life and I get jealous as well.

I'm always thinking... not necessarily over-thinking, just thinking,analysing, aware and contemplating... and sometimes i kind of envy those who can just muddle/float through life without having to think.

I am glad I'm not like that really...but a break would be nice

I don't really "think" but absorb my environment. I am not very productive when I try to think or analyze. But I gather information from somewhere. Sometimes I have no idea where I get my ideas.

It's weird... i know myself really well.
I know my own mind and know how to deal with anything and be able to accomplish anything... but doing it is something else.

Knowing is a lot different than actually living it. I know myself well too, but I still surprise myself on occasion and it feels really good.

I'm a fantastic muse... give excellent advice and can always sort other people out and usually know the best way of dealing with someone's problem.
My friends usually come to me with their problems and seek my advice on things quite often... but as a muse.... can very seldom heed my own advice and that's rather annoying...but something I'm working on and over the last year or so, i'm getting much better.

Me too. I take pride in that, but I really really wish I could follow my own advice. I try at times and it feels like progress, but it can also make me feel guilt when I do not follow it.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

I'm seeing my part. I see some concrete consequences. I'm not desiring to elaborate too much on specifics. If you were to bear witness, you would understand, I do think.

I would understand. Especially your example of alcoholism. Something that was a cosmic inheritance scenario in my family, although my addictions don't include it.
Concrete consequences suggests a cause and effect relationship that is unchangable. I would guess that you are saying that to be an alcoholic means having an alcoholic child is a concrete consequence. I don't believe this to be true.
I am not an alcoholic, but my mother and my grandfather were. I was affected to be sure. But inside that scenario I gained a lot of wisdom about human behaviour and my self.
Alcoholism is just one (important) avenue to learn self awareness. A quick road to enlightenment or at least an opportunity for it. It is essentially an opportunity to experience the dark night of the soul. To swim there for a while until you finally have the tools and gumption to climb out.

I'm confused. It's not about trying to raise someone differently. It's about getting on the path to self awareness, to "know thyself" and to not repeat the damaging programming and pass it on. In that, I am taking command of who I am and not placing the responsibility for that on another's shoulders.

It is about that, trying to raise your child differently. We learned things that we knew were wrong for any human to have to experience. For me it was lack of affection. So I give my children tons of it. I wasn't listened to, so I listen even when I don't want to and am annoyed. I knew myself enough to know that my child should not have to feel those things.
When you aren't aware of certain elements you do pass them on, or can when you don't even realize it. For me that would be issues surrounding loyalty. I didn't see loyalty as a bad thing until much later in life when I demanded loyalty from my child and it was hurtful and damaging to her. (Divorced) I didn't intend to hurt her, but I was loyal to my mother growing up to my own detriment. I expected the same. It was wrong. I see it as wrong. I don't want to be that.

Great thread. I love knowing myself. I really think the world is a mirror of the "soul". Labels are like trying to put everything into a box that is too small, and symbols are like opening a box that seemed too small to hold everything lol, just thought I would throw that out there.

edit: Forgot to mention that I love reading stuff by Oscar Wilde.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by cancerian42]

Originally posted by cancerian42
Great thread. I love knowing myself. I really think the world is a mirror of the "soul". Labels are like trying to put everything into a box that is too small, and symbols are like opening a box that seemed too small to hold everything lol, just thought I would throw that out there.

edit: Forgot to mention that I love reading stuff by Oscar Wilde.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by cancerian42]

I totally get that image. Oscar Wilde would have been the most awesome friend to have. I wish I could have partied with him.
What a character.
I'm a Cancerian by the way.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by seagrass]

I question how any of us can be self-aware without testing the waters, so to speak. But this is occasionally a 'leap of faith' which requires trust in no one but ourselves. Also the confidence to believe enough in ourselves to allow ourselves the opportunity to face difficult circumstances, to learn to cope with or overcome them, to allow ourselves the chance to succeed at the risk of some concept of failure. This is a product of self-awareness.

Denial isn't awareness. It is in opposition.

But then I don't subscribe to the concept of 'mistakes' or 'failure'. My perception of self-awareness includes the belief that what are called mistakes are simply matters of results not meeting expectations. To me every situation whether easy or difficult offers an opportunity for change and growth which is the natural outcome of self-awareness. And no growth can occur without a displacement, often termed as destruction in one way or another.

The most valuable pearls are found in the deepest waters.

reply to post by TravelerintheDark

Sometimes finding out who we are not is the fastest way to find out who we are.
The lessons are hard.
The rewards great.
I found one of my greatest pearls, you, right here.... Not such deep waters!
Although I have had to dive fairly deep to get to you.

"Only by much searching and mining are gold and diamonds obtained, and man can find every truth connected with his being if he will dig deep into the mine of his soul."

~ James Allen, 19th century philosopher



[edit on 10-9-2009 by seagrass]

"Gnothi Seauton" - Know Thyself. These words were inscribed above the entrance to the temple of Apollo at Delphi, the site of the sacred Oracle in Ancient Greece. People who visited the Oracle sought to find out what their destiny was or which course of action they should take in some particular matter. Ironically though, those who entered seeking guidance failed to truly understand the real meaning of the message right above their own heads. The message "Know Thyself" didn't mean know for yourself - by asking someone else. It meant know of yourself as in "the answer lies within." The best answers as to your destiny, or how to proceed, lie within you and the only way to get those answers is to know yourself by developing your own level of self-awareness. Your destiny is written by your own hand. While you may have been created with certain talents, what you do with those talents - your destiny - is up to you.

I like this article

It is not the only way to learn self awareness. Developing it sometimes requires you bounce off of others first. That's why we don't always heed advice. It may sound good, but isn't the right path.
We know it. Somewhere deep inside.
But I have looked to psychics and tarot and such for answers as well.
Sometimes it has been positive, others not so much. To rely on others is not so good.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by seagrass]

" Knowing others is wisdom, knowing yourself is Enlightenment.” - Lao Tzu
Lao Tzu (Chinese Taoist Philosopher and author of the Tao Te Ching) recognized that self-awareness is a key to success. Unfortunately, our culture does not often support or encourage self-awareness. Our culture often encourages people to look outside of themselves for answers and happiness. When you focus your attention on the external world rather than on your internal experience, you miss the opportunity to connect with your true self and your unique gifts. You miss the opportunity to know yourself.

source
It requires lots of time spent alone in the quiet, something our culture also looks down on. That it is selfish in some way to separate yourself from others. That it is lazy to sit and do nothing but contemplate.
Some people are very uncomfortable spending time with themselves. They wont have a dinner at a restaurant or movie alone. That it is somehow shameful.

Originally posted by seagrass
Sometimes finding out who we are not is the fastest way to find out who we are.
The lessons are hard.
The rewards great.
I found one of my greatest pearls, you, right here.... Not such deep waters!

Although I have had to dive fairly deep to get to you.

Indeed, my darling.

The lessons are hard and the rewards truly great if we know the wisdom and awareness to see the truth of value, to often look beneath the surface and beyond the horizon. Not to assume we already know but rather that we don't.

"Only by much searching and mining are gold and diamonds obtained, and man can find every truth connected with his being if he will dig deep into the mine of his soul."

~ James Allen, 19th century philosopher

And a wonderful quote.

Cognitive dissonance Suggested by Leon Festinger, this occurs when an individual experiences some degree of discomfort resulting from an incompatibility between two cognitions. For example, a consumer may seek to reassure himself regarding a purchase, feeling, in retrospect, that another decision may have been preferable. Another example of cognitive dissonance is when a belief and a behavior are in conflict. A person may wish to be healthy, believes smoking is bad for one's health, and yet continues to smoke.

wiki.

basically guilt and confusion based on duality. We think in dualistic terms and then judge it. Instead of following our impulses and letting it be ok that we do.

Originally posted by seagrass
I would understand. Especially your example of alcoholism. Something that was a cosmic inheritance scenario in my family, although my addictions don't include it.

I don't drink much either but it's on both sides here. It's an easy example but the full tale is far more demonic in nature. I might as well use that word even if it's only figurative, as it is accurate. The people of whom I speak have gained absolutely no real self-awareness by raising their children. They may even be less so than earlier on.

Originally posted by seagrass
A quick road to enlightenment or at least an opportunity for it. It is essentially an opportunity to experience the dark night of the soul. To swim there for a while until you finally have the tools and gumption to climb out.

There is more than enough to deal with in the world without pernicious and subtle forms of abuse compounding it.

Originally posted by seagrass
Originally posted by EnlightenUp
I'm confused. It's not about trying to raise someone differently.

It is about that, trying to raise your child differently. We learned things that we knew were wrong for any human to have to experience. For me it was lack of affection. So I give my children tons of it. I wasn't listened to, so I listen even when I don't want to and am annoyed. I knew myself enough to know that my child should not have to feel those things.

We'll have to disagree to agree then. It isn't about compensating, it's about removing the inhibitions to natural feeling and being. It's about moving the ego aside and allowing love, affection, support and occasionally corrective measures. It goes wrong if what you're doing is putting on a face to hide how you really feel. The child sees right through that at some point especially if they're quite aware themselves.

When you aren't aware of certain elements you do pass them on, or can when you don't even realize it.

Thankfully, both my girlfriend and I are on the path and do keep each other in check. There is no level of urguency in performing corrective measures in our own parenting of what we feel ours did wrong. If there were, it is a sign that in fact we're still carrying that load in relation to others rather than beginning with and working on our own self-awareness.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

There is more than enough to deal with in the world without pernicious and subtle forms of abuse compounding it.

There is. But when it is a personal experience and not what is happening to others out in the world, it does compound the learning. The learning of self.
If we create our reality, we create the scenarios as well. Mutually, which is hard for some to grasp in a karmic sense. That we are all players in a game. All playing to win. Whether that be as victim or perpetrator. Something we all do at times and switch.

We'll have to disagree to agree then. It isn't about compensating, it's about removing the inhibitions to natural feeling and being. It's about moving the ego aside and allowing love, affection, support and occasionally corrective measures. It goes wrong if what you're doing is putting on a face to hide how you really feel. The child sees right through that at some point especially if they're quite aware themselves.

I am not sure in what way we disagree, except that in compensating we are adjusting the self. I could have become bitter and withheld affection if I had chosen. In the compensation, I have at least altered what I have learned to be "the way" and did it different. As much as I was capable. Sure I have set aside my "ego" and my own self gratification in order to be a "good" parent in my own eyes. I have also put on a face and have not been honest in how I really feel and also been honest. In each of those experiences is the opportunity to learn that in being myself, my children still love me and I still love myself. My child is quite aware I agree. Something I try very hard to let her keep. And in the meantime have to put up with judgment that I let her have her way too much. You make choices, analyze the experiment and then see how you feel after.
It's a process. It requires time. And nobody does it perfect or there would be no point.

Thankfully, both my girlfriend and I are on the path and do keep each other in check. There is no level of urguency in performing corrective measures in our own parenting of what we feel ours did wrong. If there were, it is a sign that in fact we're still carrying that load in relation to others rather than beginning with and working on our own self-awareness.

How one gains knowledge of parenting without using an example for reference is beyond me, unless from other sources of self knowledge you draw your information. Our parental relationship is like one person explained to me, hardwired.
Carrying the "load" is carrying that experience and learning from it. Objectively if possible.
I always feel an urgency to correct my behavior if I become aware of the need. Especially where my children are concerned.

Originally posted by seagrass
There is. But when it is a personal experience and not what is happening to others out in the world, it does compound the learning. The learning of self.
If we create our reality, we create the scenarios as well. Mutually, which is hard for some to grasp in a karmic sense. That we are all players in a game.

My purpose in part is to end suffering. Suffering has a purpose of course and that is to end suffering.

All playing to win. Whether that be as victim or perpetrator. Something we all do at times and switch.

I had an interesting vision awhile ago on that matter. There is no winning and nothing to win. Competing for some ultimate victory is folly, fantasia. I wouldn't call enlightenment a goal, prize or anything tangible even if it there are tangible adjuncts.

I am not sure in what way we disagree, except that in compensating we are adjusting the self.

I could have become bitter and withheld affection if I had chosen. In the compensation, I have at least altered what I have learned to be "the way" and did it different. As much as I was capable.

I could be misunderstanding. I think laying it on extra-thick out of fear that one may be like their mother can do more harm than good. At some point it can be smothering. I would always watch for feedback. I'm not saying anything is actually wrong in the field but rather making an acedemic point.

Sure I have set aside my "ego" and my own self gratification in order to be a "good" parent in my own eyes.

Not every parent is willing to do any such thing. Trust me on that one.

How one gains knowledge of parenting without using an example for reference is beyond me, unless from other sources of self knowledge you draw your information. Our parental relationship is like one person explained to me, hardwired.

Hmmm. Many sources. Self-knowledge, experience as the child and experience of others. In my girlfriend's case, the enlightenment went from child to parent. Her mother was, shall I say, less than a pleasant case but somehow managed to break the cycle on a cue and became an aware and loving individual. This wasn't a gradual transformation over time but major mental alchemy in a short period.

Secondly, the basics may be hardwired but alot is definitely not. Any hardwiring is also a source of knowledge, even if currently not used in practice.

Carrying the "load" is carrying that experience and learning from it. Objectively if possible.
I always feel an urgency to correct my behavior if I become aware of the need. Especially where my children are concerned.

A difference in chosen interpretations perhaps. If it weights you down rather than lifts you up, the lesson hasn't yet been learned. Sometimes the lesson is that the lesson is pointless and you're only hurting yourself by holding on.

Excuse me while I try to comment and discuss with lots of people in a single post. I gotta soon be going away for a day or two, so forgive me if this ain't all logical and clear output.

reply to post by seagrass


In my opinion(emphasized), contemplation -- if we understand the word in a sense of thinking -- is a wrong way. I have tried it, yet it hasn't lead me anywhere. Done that for years. In contemplation, one replaces thought with another thought. One thinks "I am like this, but I want to be like that", and "I like this, I don't like that" and so on. This always creates conflicts. If that would have worked, I would be a superhuman right now.

Many mystic schools and esoteric religious sects precisely emhasize contemplation. But it is a dogma, or a dead letter, not the living word. But it is not their fault, I guess it's as common mistake as false interpretation of evangelion.

Thought, which has created wonderful technology and created so much misery, cannot lead to true understanding - first of all, because it takes so much time, we would be dead before we have realized great mysteries of life and death, universe and such. Real understanding is instaneous.

Basically, what I wanted to say is the thing that I've learned just recently. To just observe, without judgement, without the pressure of changing oneself. This way, one gradually becomes aware of himself, his motives and underlying conceptions and prejudices. Due the understanding, the real intelligence (= inter, legere to read between) awakes.

Originally posted by seagrass
Be this, be that.... blah blah
We need a real tangible way. Not,
Remain aware.... remain aware....

That is exactly what I meant. Once one thinks he is aware, he is not. Because then the thinker again is I, which isn't objective.

Originally posted by seagrass
I believe it is a lot harder than this in a world designed against it.

I remember I once read P.D Ouspensky whom wrote about G.I Gurdjieff -- an oriental carpet dealer, which had some great ideas. He definately pointed out, that the world and nature itself is against of self understanding. I won't go deeper on that right now, as my time is getting short and there's so much to spout about.

Originally posted by fraterormus
Facing the Darkness that is within each of us is a difficult thing for many to do. The ability to admit that each of us is capable, under the right circumstances, in a fraction of a heartbeat, to become the greatest monster that ever existed, is frightening enough of a proposition to deter most people away from ever seeking Self-Knowledge.

Exactly. Like Earth itself, we, the microcosm, have the dark side. Problem is that many of us are like moon, never facing their dark side and live in comformity of our 'good selves'. But, if one observes oneself's actions in a objective manner, not judging, not forcing to change -- but observers the emotions of hate, covetousness, violence and so on, he will become conscious of the dark side, and perhaps through that cosciousness, a light shine through and gradually enlights the dark side. Nevertheless, it is of utmost importance to be aware of the negative sides of ourselves. It is often easier for other people to see one's dark side, as they revolve around you while you remain stationary of your own axis, alike the moon.

Hey, I wish I had more time for there are many good posts here, so many fine points surfaces in this exchange. Anyway I have to go, perhaps I'll be back in a few days to see where things here have gone. Nevertheless this thread is worth of flagging.

All the best for everyone,

-v

[edit on 11-9-2009 by v01i0]