Short thread- How I faced off against JWs and basically won....

Originally posted by wylekat
Let me make something utterly clear, and no, this isn't a 'oh pity me' post- this is bare fact:

I've been abused since I came into this world.....

Every church I went to has been run the same way, Bright happy people until you had a need- then, those bright happy people turned on you like sharks on bloody meat. I have stories that'd turn ALL your hair white....

Time and again, these people would prosper, while I would struggle my backside off, and fail over and over.....

which is unfortunate. why are you blaming god?

because he didnt smite these people? because he didnt smite you? you cant blame god for actions done by evil people. blame the evil people

As for forces beyond my control... I am fully capable of finding an answer to ANYTHING. If something's beyond my abilities (for example, some plumbing. I was sure if I started to tinker with it, I'd have caused a flood)- I say so....

...I cant explain what happens. I SEE it happen for various and certain things- and there's no remedy, no explanation, no way to come up with an answer. I am also a person that when a certain thing doesn't work, I quit doing it.

but the answer WAS provided. you just dont like it.

just because god hasnt made your life perfect now does not constitute proof that he wont in the future

When Christianity became a nightmare, I said 'no more'. I have darn good reasons for every last argument I make, ...

I was shown those 'magic' bible verses- 'ask and you shall receive', and 'life more abundantly'-

just because a person says they are christian doesnt mean they are. you dont even need to convince me that there are psychos in sheeps clothing out there. but you are taking it a step further. your blaming the bible and god for your pain when its really the people who hypocritically claim to follow it that you should blame.

yes there are scriptures like "ask and you shall recieve", but they have to be understood and read within context.

if you are dedicated to preaching, then thats were the blessings are. that is god's will right now, today, is that the preaching work be carried out. jesus preached, the apostles preached, did they live lavishly? the son of god "didnt have a place to lie his head". the apostle paul was beat, enprisoned, shipwrecked, stoned, harassed etc etc. but they did god's will, and were rewarded for it.

why would god put time and energy into making someone comfortable in a world that will "pass away"?

your not seeing that there is a difference between "spiritually" rich and "materially" rich

I got snowed under by church people who not only had just money and family, and could simply march right over me. Add in the inexplicable, unbelievable, and completely twilight zone-ish way these people destroyed me...

john 13:[34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

do you really think that if people screw with your head like that that they are following jesus' command? do you really think that god approves of them?

Now- NO amount of prayer, reading, or anything else has done anything but make my life worse.

sorry, but to me it sounds like the people in your life are making it worse. not the prayer or reading.

If God cant treat me normally, what am I going to offer God? My middle finger. I call it abuse, and by all rights, I am right. Asking for protection from Satan does nothing.

2 cor 11:[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

you think god is doing this to you. im saying consider the possibility that its not god but someone who wants you to think its god.

God's right in that category. Good and kind to the ones he wants to be, and vicious and mean to people he just simply doesn't like. He even says it in the new testament- I'll be good to the ones I want to, and harden the ones I want hardened'.

if god likes some but dislikes others, what do you think is the criteria for that?

do you think god would dislike you if you were striving to be a good person? do you think your suffering is prove that god dislikes you?

I'd be a complete atheist if it weren't for the crap that defied known natural laws... I really would. I never heard of Buddha, or Allah stirring the pot in this fashion, so we're down to God and his partner in crime, Satan, who was 'allowed' to have the entire planet. Not bad for someone condemned for starting an uprising, huh? Thrown out of Heaven, my butt! That's like having a kid who broke a window, and punishing him with an ice cream cone and toys!

you didnt read job did you.

satan was not rewarded with earth.

i can get into it more but id rather have a conversation than a confrontation

There has been and is terrible suffering going on in the world, some of us have suffered more than others that is for sure.

Romans 8:22

For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

However most of us will never be literally tortured to death like Jesus Christ was, as that is how the Romans killed those they sentenced to death back then.

God has told the human race I have to put you through this terrible and painful operation, but I am willing to put my only son through it too, he really anted up at the highest level so to speak.

Because of the personal pain people go through and the length of time, they don't agree with God's way of dealing with this earth and Satan.

If God with his perfect sense of Justice could have done things any other way, that caused his son and the human race less pain and suffering he would have. He is the the caretaker of the entire universe he has to look at the infinite picture, not just the lifespan of one human that is suffering.

We all want our various sufferings to end RIGHT NOW, believe me I get it.
I have had my share of suffering too, I want it over too. But I have asked God to help me cope with problems not remove them, and this he has always been willing to do for me.

Philippians 4: 6&7

6Don't worry about anything, but pray about everything. With thankful hearts offer up your prayers and requests to God. 7Then, because you belong to Christ Jesus, God will bless you with peace that no one can completely understand. And this peace will control the way you think and feel.

wyle

i have a few questions, if i may...

1) anyone in your family a mason or shriner?
2) what type of music?
3) do you have daily habits that you personally feel should be corrected? not what religion says, but what you feel you should overcome but haven't as yet?

don't assume the direction my comments may be going in. i'll address that after you answer the questions. you might find this interesting..



[edit on 8-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by undo


1) Unknown

2)no hard rock or heavy metal or rap

3) No comment. Let's just say loneliness has it's price. Other than that, no drinking, smoking, or drugs.

reply to post by wylekat


I would like to point out that you haven't proven with this statement that you've gone through anything spectacular.

We get it and we feel you. You are not the only one that God has hardened towards.

However, you are wrong. Plain and simple. Get it through your skull.
Another TOO patient poster has pointed out that PEOPLE are responsible for PEOPLE.

Here's a word problem for you.

God = parents
people = kids

The parents have two kids. One kid is a good kid. The other kid is a bad kid. Of course, the parents love both kids. The good kid is quieter and pays attention more. The bad kid is vain and mouthy. The bad kid constantly walks all over the good kid. The good kid gets fed up and slaps the bad kid. Why does the good kid get punished?

Lesson: the good kid is expected to be good as the bad kid is expected to be bad. The good kid that is quiet would be rewarded for sticking up for other good kids when it suffices for the good kid to simply be good and cause no problems. The bad kid is expected to be bad. The bad kid would be rewarded for overcoming the vanity and mouthiness in order to preserve sanity or peace. Demons (bad thoughts) plan to use the bad kid to cause disruption in the family. If the bad kid overcomes this, then the bad kid has done their part. The demons are not disturbing the good kid, so therefore, the good kid's work is to move forward and give when possible. So, when the good kid gets fed up with the bad kid and slaps the bad kid, the good kid has regressed, not PROGRESSED. Therefore is the good kid punished and the bad kid is venged. However, if the bad kid goes beyond the unreasonable and decides to agree with him/herself in order to cause serious damage or harm, the bad kid would then be punished because this severe behavior is NOT expected.

So, let's apply this same logic. Good people are expected to be meek. But they are rewarded when they give in order to spread the wealth and good. Bad people are expected to be mouthy and vain and more or less stupid. Their brains are caught up with fighting off the wicked thoughts of demons and often times bad people try to find ways to occupy themselves in order to drown out these bad things (and end up doing or saying something of a lesser evil in the process). If a bad person ever decides relinquish their vanity or mouthiness for a time, it brings a much needed and appreciated peace which WOULD allow good to progress... but, unfortunately, Good 'ole Wylekat couldn't handle the outpouring of demons around him, so he must lash out at HIS PARENTS for having GIVEN BIRTH to his SIBLINGS?! No. Anger is understandable. Impatience is understandable. Telling the bad people to back off TO THEIR FACE is understandable. Anyone hindering in your good process is an obstacle and you should avoid them. But, taking your anger out on God who gave life to all and they choose what they do...? That's silly. Besides, the demons are allowed a certain amount of work. If the demons are getting to you through others that easily, there is a possibility God is deciding that now is a time for you to be tested so you can handle more pretty soon. By HANDLE, I mean ignoring the silly, stupid things, or developing wit, or coming up with creative techniques in order to continue with what you are doing. Or maybe by forcing you to face those demons, you are forced to recognize which aspect of the person's personality is real and which is demonic (for lack of a better word).

Usually, if people are patient enough, God through your brain reveals these things. I never read anywhere that we're not allowed to pass on this knowledge... but most adults have figured this out by now. All people are your siblings (and it is easier to realize since there are only two genders and not a lot of differences), all people are selfish (look in the mirror), and all have the same goal: To Live. ---suicide is for people who think that somehow a concept which cannot be conceived in the human brain does not exist, that is -nothingness-, which is ironic because out of nothing comes nothing and the verb exist simply implies the opposite of nothing, so either nothing does not exist or everything exists. This is the mindset of a suicidal. However, in Job, you can read of course, God makes it clear through Job that nothingness DOES exist...---

I cannot believe I'm wasting time I could be reading or doing something else. You're not going to get it or believe it anyway. Regardless, logic won't prove to you what the truth is. Science is still trying and we all know how hilarious that trip is.

All I can say is WELCOME TO IT. Stop giving the attention to the bad things and the demons and all the hell and stupidity and relinquish responsibility for those stupid things for a time. Go outside and BREATHE. Shut the HELL UP. Inspect a rock. For God's sake or your own who cares, stop being a BABY!

3 more months till my kid pops out... can't wait till 3 years old when he acts like this... You already know what the Bible has been trying to tell you. You know who saved you. Start learning from nature, the OTHER book. Get out and ENJOY what He has given us instead of whining about what others have taken. Rocks are cool, I swear.

reply to post by wylekat


this is my theory. masons are like sheepherders. each lodge has its own area it oversees. the people of those areas are their flock. if anyone in your family (typically men) has been a mason, when he died you and the rest of your nuclear family, were most likely adopted by a fellow mason from the same lodge.

usually it doesn't get alot more indepth than that. and you may never know who that person is. the only time it really does get more indepth is if you become a special project. this special status can have good results or even horrible results, depending on the mason who has adopted you and their personal belief system. but there are also some laws in place:

first and foremost -- if you claim to believe something, you'd better darn well live it. or they have you by rights, over a barrel. this is how they treat each other as well. to advance in the degrees, you must rid yourself of bad habits, for example. the only belief system that appears to have any wiggle room as adoptees are atheists, cause you really can't hold them to anything, so their adopted life is perhaps a bit easier.

in effect i view it much like the matrix. god is like a big computer. he created antivirus software which eventually went completely off the deep end. it became so effective literally nothing could get through. he's the prosecuting attorney (afterall, that's the translation of satan's name - the accuser!). i think of him like the architect in the matrix.

this i think is essentially what your adopted masonic overseer does. he acts as the prosecuting attorney until such time as you have fulfilled what he views as your responsibility to your religion of choice. when you've satisfied him, you're then afforded a defense attorney and your life improves. this is not anywhere near as easy as it sounds, either! cause everybody is different and that includes your adopter, who may not even be the same religion as you and may be especially unsympathetic of it. you can't divorce him either. you have to either toe the line, hope he grows some nerve endings or get use to misery.
i believe this is what is referred to as "paying your dues."




[edit on 8-9-2009 by undo]

reply to post by KOGDOG

However.... the really freaky OT/NT stuff is why I would suggest that all should take another look at Yahshua. Just a suggestion... not a commandment. It's your life... :-)

Actually I have done so (that's got me here) and so far I find little evidence of

A) The dude being a real historical character but an amalgam of deities such as Mithra Dyansis etc.

(B) This character being a deity one and the same entity as Yahwhe no less who's background is fraught with problems.


The Talpiot tombs I found particular exiting but not unexpectedly many xtians reject this Jesus out of hand as being "The" jesus.

Although I personally reject the Idea of a prophet like character name Yeshua there is little if not zero evidence to support the the claims of the gospels.

Yahweh sudden appearance on the mythological scene is totally unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. Personally I think the best theory proposed is the Tell El Armana exodus, which is documented and makes for a plausible background of the appearance of Yahweh.

In relation to this I'm currently stumped as to Akhenatens' reason for accepting the Aten and where he acquired the philosophy, a few more day in the library may well bring up some clues though.

PS to all you whiners cursing Yahweh.... I could tell you my life but won't cuz I don't want to have to change your diapers.

Personally I've seen very little of anyone cursing yahweh, perhaps your mistaken, it would seem very illogical to curse something that one has no evidence of its' existence.

But I supposed it depends on your definition of curse, the OP seems to be addressing some very valid points perhaps our definitions of whingeing are not similar.

Perhaps it would be better for the theist responders to see through his eyes for a little and not treat him as some heretic backslider. If there is any truth in the responses given I'm sure he will observe it.

Oh.... Mancow.... you never said what your "goals" were and what those "goals" demanded that you do to achieve your "goals".

No I never did, I have a philosophy of only sharing my goals with like minded people, if I recall correctly something that your jeseus touched on ?


To be honest my goals are few, to achieve is to imply want, which is something I don't. I either will or I won't have or have not, surely whichever I observe is ?
I believe your jesus discussed this, perhaps in a more sublime way, the "size of a mustard seed" faith is or it isn't it cannot be more nor less.

reply to post by miriam0566

yes there are scriptures like "ask and you shall recieve", but they have to be understood and read within context.

Context is normally introduced by xtians as an excuse for a passage not being taken at face value or this would undermine what they preach.

"He said that but he really didn't mean that but meant this "

Please bare in mind I used the word normally.

Nice to see you again Miriam I haven't bumped into you in a while.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by moocowman

es there are scriptures like "ask and you shall recieve", but they have to be understood and read within context.

Context is normally introduced by xtians as an excuse for a passage not being taken at face value or this would undermine what they preach.

Actually, I think you're wrong- their use of the term 'context' seems to be more of a power play- the rich, well off use the term as a way to control the poor, unwashed masses. For an example, have a look at the medieval church, who used all manner of holy ways to control the peasants, so the rich could still live their lifestyle (as long as they paid up their 'donations'). For an example- have a look at what I and others have described going thru, the loss, and see how they responded. It never ceases to amaze me how they always use that (CENSORED) time worn phrase of "God's not a vending machine/ genie/ ATM/ gumball machine/ ect ect ect", but these are the SAME ones with the fancy cars, fancy houses, large families, and really not a care in the world. Their idea of a deep personal crisis is having Dancing with the Stars canceled for a special. Look how they sit and minimalise real, desperate situations, and make it sound like they are nobles from the 1100's.

I think these people do tap into a power of some sort, but I really do NOT want it. Their attitude, their stance on things, their complete and total disregard for people.... What really puts me off is how "we're reflections of Jesus!" I'll say it again, until they finally get it (although, I think they do- and secretly, they laugh and rub their hands in glee over it) If that's how your God really is- No thanks. If by your actions you mimic your fave deity... I'll stay as far from your kind as I can get- because you people frighten me.

(edited because I'm still half asleep and cant type)

[edit on 9-9-2009 by wylekat]

[edit on 9-9-2009 by wylekat]

reply to post by wylekat


i've been through alot too. i remain a christian. this is so because i don't take every word in the bible as being straight from the mouth of god to my ear. even the text indicates the word of god is jesus, so that means "the word" isn't a book. and since it also says he has written his word on my heart, i don't view the text with the same weight as i do the holy spirit indwelling. although i take some comfort, understanding and instruction from it, i don't view it with the same level of infallibility as others might..

i do believe this is what the personal connection to god is all about, rather than words in a book. this was a necessary step for several reasons starting with the concept that the words can be and in some cases have been, changed, taken away from, added to and improperly translated, but the holy spirit is unchangeable. if read while in a prayerful mindset, it can be quite an interesting book that provides different answers from the same verses, according to your need, but even then it's the indwelling spirit of god that makes this happen and could be just as likely were you to be in a prayerful mindset while enjoying his creations or even while simply resting. the idea being that having a conversation with god is going to be perhaps more fulfilling than having a conversation with a book.

if it is any consolation, i think your suffering is not an indication of the non-existence of an almighty god, but rather the confusion that is set up in your mind while experiencing trauma and comparing it to the text. i don't think in those moments, where your suffering, that the text is the place you should take refuge nor should it be the source of your understanding about how god may or may not deal with you. you are, afterall, an individual.

Originally posted by moocowman

yes there are scriptures like "ask and you shall recieve", but they have to be understood and read within context.

Context is normally introduced by xtians as an excuse for a passage not being taken at face value or this would undermine what they preach.

"He said that but he really didn't mean that but meant this "

yeah but its abit unreasonable to use that out.

most things in life need context. why would the bible be any different?

matt 7:[7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[8] For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[9] Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
[10] Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
[11] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

there is a direct parallel to being a parent made here. so consider the context.

would you let your child eat candy all the time because he wants to?

would you refuse a doctor to administer medicine because you child is scared of the shot?

god knows what is the best for us, which goes beyond our immediate wants and needs.

note too that the passage refers to bread and fish, not gold and silver. these are things we need to survive.

jesus was telling them that god would give them what they need. but look too at the previous chapter 6

[25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
[26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
[28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
[29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
[31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
[32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
[34] Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

there's a command in there. to seek first the kingdom.

so its not just that god will take care of your needs (not wants) but you have to put the kingdom first in your life.

im not drawing on context because im trying to divert from the first scripture. when you include all the context, you can then take the bunch at face value.

basically im saying that you cant cherry pick the bible and say that this scripture says this and so that is that. you have to include ALL the scriptures that weigh in on that subject and then see what picture the bible is painting

that make sense? its too early for me and im not sure that was coherent

Originally posted by wylekat
Actually, I think you're wrong- their use of the term 'context' seems to be more of a power play- the rich, well off use the term as a way to control the poor, unwashed masses. For an example, have a look at the medieval church, who used all manner of holy ways to control the peasants, so the rich could still live their lifestyle (as long as they paid up their 'donations').

the church is rubbish.

-they disregard the bible
-they are bloodguilty
-it apparent that they do NOT have a christ like attitude.

so im not sure what point you are making

For an example- have a look at what I and others have described going thru, the loss, and see how they responded. It never ceases to amaze me how they always use that (CENSORED) time worn phrase of "God's not a vending machine/ genie/ ATM/ gumball machine/ ect ect ect", but these are the SAME ones with the fancy cars, fancy houses, large families, and really not a care in the world. Their idea of a deep personal crisis is having Dancing with the Stars canceled for a special. Look how they sit and minimalise real, desperate situations, and make it sound like they are nobles from the 1100's.

its interesting because ive said that to you. where's my fancy car? where's my family? where's my house?

maybe you could tell me because i dont know.

I think these people do tap into a power of some sort, but I really do NOT want it. Their attitude, their stance on things, their complete and total disregard for people.... What really puts me off is how "we're reflections of Jesus!" I'll say it again, until they finally get it (although, I think they do- and secretly, they laugh and rub their hands in glee over it) If that's how your God really is- No thanks. If by your actions you mimic your fave deity... I'll stay as far from your kind as I can get- because you people frighten me.

use the power of reason that god gave you. if they are not acting like jesus, then they are not reflections.

but this still goes back to what i was saying before. you are blaming god for the actions of people who only claim to represent god.

matt 7:[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

reply to post by miriam0566

-they disregard the bible

i don't go to church, and i don't disregard the bible, but i will say this much, it's being used like a sledge hammer in much the same way that mosaic law was used and jesus corrected that. the test for a christian is not whether or not they even own a bible. the bible doesn't save them. jesus does. a good portion of the english translation is mistranslated. parts of it are presented as if they were divinely inspired and treated as such, when it's clear the author is only talking about what he would do in a situation and is more like having a conversation rather than preaching a message. but people took it as if every word were gospel.

remember when jesus corrected them about divorce laws? he told them the mosaic laws on divorce were just moses' attempt to keep the peace because he knew they couldn't handle the real answer.....that being that even thinking about commiting a sin was equivalent to doing that sin, in the sight of god. this indicating why it was necessary to have a savior in the first place and why policing your thoughts was just as important as policing your outward activities. it also indicated that people took moses' every word as if it were straight from the mouth of god and it just wasn't so. no wonder they accused him of blasphemy. they were worshipping laws written by men and not god.

Originally posted by undo
the test for a christian is not whether or not they even own a bible. the bible doesn't save them. jesus does.

and yet jesus himself, the son of god, quoted regularly from the scriptures.

jesus is a bad example to use if you are saying that the bible is not really that important

a good portion of the english translation is mistranslated.

i dont agree with this at all. ive studied koine and coptic greek for many years now and while there are mistranslations on certain scriptures, on the whole i think they did a good job.

parts of it are presented as if they were divinely inspired and treated as such, when it's clear the author is only talking about what he would do in a situation and is more like having a conversation rather than preaching a message. but people took it as if every word were gospel.

thats because it was inspired

2 tim 3:[13] But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

remember when jesus corrected them about divorce laws? he told them the mosaic laws on divorce were just moses' attempt to keep the peace because he knew they couldn't handle the real answer.....that being that even thinking about commiting a sin was equivalent to doing that sin, in the sight of god. this indicating why it was necessary to have a savior in the first place and why policing your thoughts was just as important as policing your outward activities.

its true, a persons thoughts are the foundation of their actions. christians do need to change their hearts which is more importance than following a law.

it also indicated that people took moses' every word as if it were straight from the mouth of god and it just wasn't so. no wonder they accused him of blasphemy. they were worshipping laws written by men and not god.

but the fact that god permitted moses to speak these things WERE from god. just like how god for a time permitted polygamy. it was god's decision to do that not moses'. the fault of the people was not understanding when god permitted something even though it wasnt his original purpose

reply to post by moocowman

I've heard the sound of one hand clapping and resolved the problem by accepting the outreached hand of Yahweh.

Gotta' play out the "game" by "faith"... no "proof" FOR YOU! (Although I may have something on video that is... "interesting")

Do what is "right" even though in this life it hurts and doesn't pay off.

All the other "myths" just don't have the "flair" that is embedded within the OT/NT. What a fantastic story!

I would have loved to let my mind hack out that OT/NT storyline. So much fun! Kinda' scary... a spooky late night read..... but still the kind of read that leaves a smile on your face as you shake your head in wonder over the beauty and insight of the "Author".

Bottom line........

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me..."

If you from birth have lived the "life".... then the story rings true for you. If from birth you have never known the "life"... then you gotta' play things out as you were designed.

Like I have always said... That Jesus guy fellow was at the very least a poor Jew boy born on the wrong side of the chariot tracks who really did a number on TPTB both Jew and Gentile/Romans.

For that I say thank you to "The Man".... I could never have figured that angle out on my own... especially the part about Him "never having sinned". That part of the story was BRILLIANT!

No need to spill your guts out on a public forum about "goals".

Coulda' just said something like....

"My goal in life is to have enough fiber in my daily diet to have a regular BM."

I would have got the idea... and understood.

reply to post by miriam0566


yes he did but he quoted from the hebrew writings that predated the new testament, even the book of enoch, which isn't even in the bible. in fact, for what...300 years, christians didn't even have a bible and they still managed to be christians. problem we got here is it's been around long enough now where it's picked up the traditions of men, the translation bias of men and the errors of men. not that it isn't good still, just that it's not what some people are making it out to be. you are the temple of god and the word of god is not written in pages but on your heart. i think that's the point he was trying to make regarding belief. it serves a good purpose, but it is not the hand of god, out on loan to you, to bash people over the head with.

Originally posted by undo
yes he did but he quoted from the hebrew writings that predated the new testament, even the book of enoch, which isn't even in the bible.

actually it was james who quoted from the book of enoch

the point is that the OT was their bible. they used what they had and respected it as inspired.

in fact, for what...300 years, christians didn't even have a bible and they still managed to be christians.

thats not true either. the letters to the congregations were written as needed under inspiration, all of them confirmed to have been written before 68 ad. they didnt receive a letter from paul and just disregard it as "traditions of men". they put great importance on the contents of those letters. even copying those letters and distributing them to other congregations.

yes, later they were compiled into a "bible", but that doesnt mean they werent referenced regularly

problem we got here is it's been around long enough now where it's picked up the traditions of men, the translation bias of men and the errors of men.

sorry, but i dont see it. ive had the privileged of examining copies of some of the older coptic transcripts and i dont see this change in doctrine you claim

not that it isn't good still, just that it's not what some people are making it out to be. you are the temple of god and the word of god is not written in pages but on your heart. i think that's the point he was trying to make regarding belief. it serves a good purpose, but it is not the hand of god, out on loan to you, to bash people over the head with.

and yet god's word says that the heart of man is treacherous and desperate.

so where's the standard?

if there is a disagreement regarding the buying of grain, doesnt it help to have a scale? how can you resolve that disagreement if you throw out the scale?

the bible is inspired, and there is proof of that. just because you may not agree with certains things doesnt make it not.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by miriam0566]

it was written in the law to not work on sabbath.
but jesus still encouraged us to work under certain circumstances, out of love for our fellow humans. the idea being of course, to use common sense and compassion, something that tends to get tossed out the window when we have a text we can force every situation into and command it to fit every circumstance, every person, as if it's a little box with the word "god" imprinted on it and he must fit into it, period, and so must everyone else, like the OP.

the op is an individual. god can and does deal with us on an individual basis.
if not, job woulda been fresh outta luck

reply to post by miriam0566


well let me put it this way, all the religions brought the viewpoints of the RCC with them when they broke away or formed later. there's not a single concept in the biblical text that doesn't have a RCC stamp on it and that hasn't found it's way into every christian religion on the earth. as a result today, there are people still trying to claim the earth is the center of the universe and is flat as a pancake. that's what i mean about bashing people upside the head with it. half the time, we are basing it on someone else's theology, not what it actually says.

you don't want to get me started on paul. guy was brilliant. on fire. no doubt about it. but he had the traditional synagogue stance on women and had one heckuva time separating it out. as a result, for 2000 years, some churches still teach that women have to abide by the traditions of 30 AD. because in whatever BC, a woman believed a liar. it's like .....i don't have words to put it into that do it justice.

Originally posted by undo
it was written in the law to not work on sabbath.
but jesus still encouraged us to work under certain circumstances, out of love for our fellow humans. the idea being of course, to use common sense and compassion,

actually the law allowed a person to save their livestock when it was in peril. jesus simply applied that reasoning to humans.

he still observed the sabbath, perfectly i might add.

the pharisees added things to the sabbath, which is the point i think you are trying to make.

however that fault lies with the pharisees, not the scriptures. the idea that some things that moses wrote in the law was "laws of men" is unsupported

something that tends to get tossed out the window when we have a text we can force every situation into and command it to fit every circumstance, every person, as if it's a little box with the word "god" imprinted on it and he must fit into it, period, and so must everyone else, like the OP.

the op is an individual. god can and does deal with us on an individual basis.
if not, job woulda been fresh outta luck

job also didnt blame god. he accepted the beating he got even though he didnt understand it.

even god after gave him understanding of the situation and sure enough it was satan.

ironically, the OP says much of the same that the 3 comforters did. god made it very clear that he was displeased with them for blaming him.

so what does that tell you? is the OP's situation really just a matter of "whatever he feels is right?"